PL: Stoke a Ratings and Reactions

[TrentVilla]

I agree some of the comments are over the top but then they always are, it wasn't a terrible performance but then it wasn't a good one either but oddly contained elements of both.

Our inability to impose ourselves on the game going forward was a concern no question but I'll come on to that shortly. What was once again a huge positive was our extremely solid, dependable and almost faultless defence other than Cuellar's passing obviously which once again was, well, wayward would be the way I'd describe it.

Going to Stoke isn't easy, no matter who you are and no matter how much better footballers your players are just the likes of Arsenal and Man City about that or the countless other 'bigger' and 'better' sides that have been there and got turned over since they came up.

Today we looked organised and very committed at the back and Delap could have launched his missles all day and I doubt they would have scored and that is a positive, a big positive.

There is though a negative or several negatives starting with our inability to retain the ball which has been a feature of our play all season. At no stage during the match did we manage to impose our game on Stoke, we spent 90 minutes trying to counter their game and that more than anything concerns me.

We've spent a huge amount of money, perhaps not in comparison to the Man City's, Chelsea's etc but compared to most we've spent a lot and we still can't keep hold of the ball and dictate a game it just isn't in the make up of this side. While that is the case we will continue to struggle in certain games and we will continue to fall short of having a realistic chance of breaking into the top 4.

Today we had the two big men up front and while it may have worked for 20 minutes against Reading, it doesn't work we all know it. While the height of the two helped us repel the arial bombardment it did little else and was a factor in our inability to keep hold of the ball. For all Gabby's limitations and faults without him we are fairly impotent upfront, we can't hold the ball up there, we can't get behind teams and we can't create chances. Watching one big man aimlessly flick the ball on in the hope it goes to the other is a tactic akin to pissing into a tornado.

Its been suggested in this thread we should have gone 4-5-1 but again without Gabby as the spearhead to this formation it doesn't work with either Carew or Heskey the pointless flick on's become, well, even more pointless.

If we are to progress any further we need to learn to impose ourselves on opposition rather than letting them impose themselves on us which as a counter attacking side is what we do. If we don't learn how to do this we won't progress, simple. The players need to learn how to dictate the pace of a game or be allowed to play in such a way or players need to be signed who can.

Today wasn't pretty, it wasn't enjoyable and it wasn't the result we wanted but it was solid and there were some positives but was it good enough to suggest we have what it takes to get 4th? No. It really wasn't and this summer O'Neill needs to address these issues because if he doesn't we have reached our glass ceiling in my view.

[PompeyVillan]

Great post Trent.

What baffles me is that we can impose our style of play on the best teams in the league and get results and struggle against the lesser teams. When we play the bigger teams, we attack them as well as counter attack them. Granted, they attack us, which in turn gives us more space to play in. We need to reconsider out style of play against the teams that defend deep (like Stoke did today) and are happy to counter us.

[rjshare]

interesting review that trent. i thought we had patches of decent play too which seem to have been forgotten by some. obviously we were bl00dy awful at times during the game too!

in relation to your final paragraph, what concerns me most is that i think it looks like maybe mon has reached his glass ceiling, rather than the team. i cant help feeling that the players we have are capable of being a better team than they are at the moment, in other words somewhere out there is a manager who could make them play better than the current one does. that saddens me because i so badly wanted mon to come here, and when he did come i really really wanted him to best the manager we ever had, but i just dont understand what he is doing at times.

[TrentVilla]

^^ In response to Pompey...

My view mate, we don't impose our play on the best teams it is that their style of play suits us and allows us to play our game. Sides that pass the ball and commit men forward will always be vunerable to our current set up and style. You are kind of answering your own question mate our style either works or doesn't work dependant on what the opposition do and its been that way for pretty much the whole time O'Neill has been here.

[TrentVilla]

in relation to your final paragraph, what concerns me most is that i think it looks like maybe mon has reached his glass ceiling, rather than the team. i cant help feeling that the players we have are capable of being a better team than they are at the moment, in other words somewhere out there is a manager who could make them play better than the current one does. that saddens me because i so badly wanted mon to come here, and when he did come i really really wanted him to best the manager we ever had, but i just dont understand what he is doing at times.

That is an extremely apt question and one I've not got an answer to but have been asking myself for a while.

I absolutely detest the phrase 'he has taken us as far as he can' I really hate it and I hate fans that use it, I certainly don't think it is true in this case.

I do think its an interesting proposition though, what would other managers get out of these players and how would they have them playing. People do though need to remember when considering this that few other managers would get the level of desire, committment and work rate out of players that O'Neill does. I've never seen a team so willing to throw themselves infront of things as these boys.

Pro's and con's, pro's and con's.

[snowychap]

Before the game, I'd have taken a point. Considering how much of an attacking 'threat' we were, I'm glad with the point. Overall, though, I'm still a bit disappointed with a point.

Defence were very good, though, especially Collins - lots of bodies being hurled in front of the ball. A lot of passion at the back.

[VillaChris]

The Fonz was warming up intensly in the second half so I thought he was coming on. I do think MON should've gambled on him more in prem games, Manure did with Macheda at the back end of last season and it won them points.

Today was the first time I've actually seen a 0-0 at the Britannia and I've been 13 or 14 times in the 3 years I've been here going to Uni.

[InMartinWeTrust]

In 33 years of watching the Villa that was one of the poorest games of football Ive ever seen.

Thought we looked as though we had spent all week preparing to defend long throw ins and neglected to actually think about how we were going to go about trying to win a game. I thought we offered absolutely nothing. Its one of the few times during a game of football Ive actually been bored.

Thanks also to the cretins at the Britannia Stadium for the deafening PA round the pitch side. My ears are still **** ringing

[TrentVilla]

In 33 years of watching the Villa that was one of the poorest games of football Ive ever seen.

Thought we looked as though we had spent all week preparing to defend long throw ins and neglected to actually think about how we were going to go about trying to win a game. I thought we offered absolutely nothing. Its one of the few times during a game of football Ive actually been bored.

Thanks also to the cretins at the Britannia Stadium for the deafening PA round the pitch side. My ears are still **** ringing

Can't quite match the years although not far off and I agree in terms of the overall games its one of the worst I've seen.

Your analogy of how we might have prepared is also quite apt.

It was boring but then I don't often enjoy watching us play if I'm totally honest.

So do you think you will live to regret your username?

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

Do you honestly not enjoy watching us? (not as in, that's stupid but interested to know before it sounds like an attack!)

I rarely find a game boring, even today, I weren't bored as such even though it as a poor game.

Although we don't score that many now, I do love the way we defend. Weird, being an attacking player myself, that I actually get far greater satisfaction from seeing a great peice of defending than a great cross etc..I enjoy the fact we now have something to build on.

[TrentVilla]

Do you honestly not enjoy watching us? (not as in, that's stupid but interested to know before it sounds like an attack!)

I rarely find a game boring, even today, I weren't bored as such even though it as a poor game.

Although we don't score that many now, I do love the way we defend. Weird, being an attacking player myself, that I actually get far greater satisfaction from seeing a great peice of defending than a great cross etc..I enjoy the fact we now have something to build on.

Not avoiding the question mate but one for another thread really rather than the match reaction one but very briefly... I enjoy aspects and I admire the ethic of our side but asthetically do I enjoy the way we play? No not really.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

in relation to your final paragraph, what concerns me most is that i think it looks like maybe mon has reached his glass ceiling, rather than the team. i cant help feeling that the players we have are capable of being a better team than they are at the moment, in other words somewhere out there is a manager who could make them play better than the current one does. that saddens me because i so badly wanted mon to come here, and when he did come i really really wanted him to best the manager we ever had, but i just dont understand what he is doing at times.

That is an extremely apt question and one I've not got an answer to but have been asking myself for a while.

I absolutely detest the phrase 'he has taken us as far as he can' I really hate it and I hate fans that use it, I certainly don't think it is true in this case.

I do think its an interesting proposition though, what would other managers get out of these players and how would they have them playing. People do though need to remember when considering this that few other managers would get the level of desire, committment and work rate out of players that O'Neill does. I've never seen a team so willing to throw themselves infront of things as these boys.

Pro's and con's, pro's and con's.

Just look at where the players come from and I really don't agree with what the original post is saying.

O'Neill and the player themselves through hardwork have turned decent players like Milner into top class players like the Milner we see now.

Ashley Young another example. Richard Dunne, how many managers could of possibly turned his career around. James Collins...the way Agbonlahor has been bought through.

It's easy to say these players are now great but O'Neill made them great players or at least bought out what they hadn't shown at other clubs.

[InMartinWeTrust]

Haha nice question Trent...I'm not one to give up the faith that easily.

My criticism of the manager is that I still think we are way too one dimensional. The first half last Sunday should have given him a few pointers, but they got themselves out of jail second half but I think everything thats been bad about us recently was encapsulated in that 45 mins but has been glossed over by what happened subsequently.

We persist in constantly switching Young and Downing over. Downing looks a really poor player when hes out on the right and seems to trust his right foot little. At the moment we just seem to be trying to accomodate him. I think if the two of them are going to play then Downing needs to be stuck on the left.

Cuellar aint a right back, we have a far better one on the bench. I think theres a preference for another centre half on the pitch for defending set pieces but from an offensive point of view the distribution and ball retention is dreadful.

As for up front ....I just wish the manager would chop and change it more. The run Gabby had last year was a prime example...the manager wouldnt drag him out of the firing line until his confidence was totally shot to pieces and we had the ironic cheers when he finally got the hook in a game.

I wish he would trust players like Delph, Delfouneso and Albrighton a lot more. If players arent performing then they should be dropped but there appears to be untouchables in the team. I cant complain about the cup runs and the general position we're in but I still dont think the football we're playing is anything special considering the amount of money we've chucked at it.

[TrentVilla]

O'Neill and the player themselves through hardwork have turned decent players like Milner into top class players like the Milner we see now.

Milner has always been a very talented player, he is simply maturing and playing in his prefered position.

Ashley Young another example. Richard Dunne, how many managers could of possibly turned his career around. James Collins...the way Agbonlahor has been bought through.

Turned Richard Dunne's career around???? Laughable.

[TrentVilla]

Haha nice question Trent...I'm not one to give up the faith that easily.

My criticism of the manager is that I still think we are way too one dimensional. The first half last Sunday should have given him a few pointers, but they got themselves out of jail second half but I think everything thats been bad about us recently was encapsulated in that 45 mins but has been glossed over by what happened subsequently.

We persist in constantly switching Young and Downing over. Downing looks a really poor player when hes out on the right and seems to trust his right foot little. At the moment we just seem to be trying to accomodate him. I think if the two of them are going to play then Downing needs to be stuck on the left.

Cuellar aint a right back, we have a far better one on the bench. I think theres a preference for another centre half on the pitch for defending set pieces but from an offensive point of view the distribution and ball retention is dreadful.

As for up front ....I just wish the manager would chop and change it more. The run Gabby had last year was a prime example...the manager wouldnt drag him out of the firing line until his confidence was totally shot to pieces and we had the ironic cheers when he finally got the hook in a game.

I wish he would trust players like Delph, Delfouneso and Albrighton a lot more. If players arent performing then they should be dropped but there appears to be untouchables in the team. I cant complain about the cup runs and the general position we're in but I still dont think the football we're playing is anything special considering the amount of money we've chucked at it.

We are pretty much on the same page then mate.

[InMartinWeTrust]

Im far from a doom monger, but I just think with a bit of fine tuning we could be even better.

It will be interesting to see what happens Tuesday. I have no doubt that it will just be Gabby for Carew and we will go with the same line up. But I think if the manager was willing to give say Albrighton a game for Downing or Delph a game in place of Petrov it would freshen things up a little, keep players on their toes and allow a couple of players a week off before next weekend. The way things are run though is that we have no squad rotation it just equates to being dropped. I just hoped that we had learned a lesson from March last year onwards but I worry that it hasnt been.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

O'Neill and the player themselves through hardwork have turned decent players like Milner into top class players like the Milner we see now.

Milner has always been a very talented player, he is simply maturing and playing in his prefered position.

Ashley Young another example. Richard Dunne, how many managers could of possibly turned his career around. James Collins...the way Agbonlahor has been bought through.

Turned Richard Dunne's career around???? Laughable.

Milner has been talented but not many other managers seemed willing to go £12 Million for a player!

as for Dunne, but his last season and everyone the one before that, alot of City fans believed he was past his best and was making alot of mistakes. He never went shit but certainly was nowhere near the performances of what he's achieving now. I'm only going from Man City fans opinions who most of them believed he was going down hill quickly. Dunne at City was for me it seems like at the stage Carew is now, ask Villa fans and you'll probably get some playing he's past it and some saying he's still a great forward yet must would agree he's been poor for this season.

I also agree with pretty much everything InMartinWeTrust said.

[TrentVilla]

Likewise mate, I would hope anyone familure with my general posts over the last couple of years wouldn't put me down as a doom monger I am though at the moment a little frustrated and concerned. Last season far too many people put our end of season slump down to the loss of Martin Laursen and that certainly contributed but it was in my view more to do with our high tempo game and as you say lack of rotation or more accurately lack of options for rotation.

We have more options this season but yet there is still no real rotation, not that I think we can rotate in the Man Utd way but nonetheless we could rest players now and then. I share your concern.

[rjshare]

in relation to your final paragraph, what concerns me most is that i think it looks like maybe mon has reached his glass ceiling, rather than the team. i cant help feeling that the players we have are capable of being a better team than they are at the moment, in other words somewhere out there is a manager who could make them play better than the current one does. that saddens me because i so badly wanted mon to come here, and when he did come i really really wanted him to best the manager we ever had, but i just dont understand what he is doing at times.

That is an extremely apt question and one I've not got an answer to but have been asking myself for a while.

I absolutely detest the phrase 'he has taken us as far as he can' I really hate it and I hate fans that use it, I certainly don't think it is true in this case.

I do think its an interesting proposition though, what would other managers get out of these players and how would they have them playing. People do though need to remember when considering this that few other managers would get the level of desire, committment and work rate out of players that O'Neill does. I've never seen a team so willing to throw themselves infront of things as these boys.

Pro's and con's, pro's and con's.

Just look at where the players come from and I really don't agree with what the original post is saying.

O'Neill and the player themselves through hardwork have turned decent players like Milner into top class players like the Milner we see now.

Ashley Young another example. Richard Dunne, how many managers could of possibly turned his career around. James Collins...the way Agbonlahor has been bought through.

It's easy to say these players are now great but O'Neill made them great players or at least bought out what they hadn't shown at other clubs.

you say it like he plucked them from obscurity or something!

dunne was man citys player of the season for something like four out of the last five seasons. their fans didnt want him to go and he is a mainstay of the irish national team - hardly a career turnaround on a par with paul mcgrath is it?

collins was rated by west ham but had a poor injury record. he also has over 30 caps for wales - and he made his debut in 2004, thats five years before he joined us.

young was highly rated when we signed him - thats why he cost 9 million quid.

as for milner, even dol rated him! the fact that he is now improved so much is possibly down to his natural development, age, experience and change of position. yes i know mon changed his position, but how much that was intended or how much was luck we will never know, but having played him out wide for two seasons already suggests that he wasnt bought with the express intention of making him a central midfielder.

as for gabby, well - we can only speculate as to how any other manager might have handled him. i personally think he has been over played and as yet has acheived less than darius vassell did in his time at villa.

mon deserves praise because on the whole he has done a good job at the club, but i fear that telling the players to go out and try really really hard is only going to get us so far.

[parisvilla]

I fail to see how Downing merits a first team place with his performances over the last 10+ games and arguably Collins too (before today) has looked fairly out of sorts. Why not put Delph in the middle and Milner wide to shake things up a bit? And/Or shift Cuellar over to CB and play L.Young?

With regards to our top 4 credentials... do we actually have any? I can't remember the last time I watched a game and thought we'd played well. No denying that everytime Martin sends the boys out they're fully committed and the work they do as a team is outstanding but we are so disjointed going forward, it seems the only way we score is via set pieces or when we come up against a joke side like Burnley who try and defend with an incredibly high line and gift us endless opportunities. All endeavour and no imagination