economic situation is dire

[snowychap]

Someone who believes in representative government, democratic accountability and opposes direct rule by an unelected corporate and financial elite.

You aren't suggesting this is Cameron (especially with respect to this decision), though, are you?

[VILLAFC2000]

Even Churchill was pro Europe...!

As Cameron is, but not on this point.

What was formed as an economic co-operation has turned into the vehicle for politicians with steamroller ambitions, and who have little or no regard for the democratic rights of its people.

So, using your historical analogy, the small players in Europe are long since vanquished, Sarkozy is Marshall Petain, and Merkel is Adolf Hitler.

Whether that casts Cameron as Churchill, I don't know.

Welcome to the Fourth Reich

What on earth are you talking about. I was simply making the point that Churchill was more pro Europe that Scameron.

Now your comparing Merkel with Hitler....

[Awol]

Someone who believes in representative government, democratic accountability and opposes direct rule by an unelected corporate and financial elite.

You aren't suggesting this is Cameron (especially with respect to this decision), though, are you?

No it was meant as a broader definition of what Drat labels 'little Englanders', by which he means a closet nazi, itching to rebuild the gas chambers.

Cameron (despite doing the right thing on this issue) is part of the current political machine and therefore in hock to vested interests as much as the rest - blue and red.

Another point, if Cameron had agreed to the proposal it would have meant UK budgets going to Brussels for pre-approval before presentation to the country, plus financial penalties for going over EU set deficit limits. That would totally roger Ed Balls recovery prescription, wouldn't it?

[VILLAFC2000]

Even Churchill was pro Europe...!

Or more accurately:

“ and a receipe for dictatorship.

You talk of dictatorships.

The liberal democrats were the most pro European party before the GE. Check out their Manifesto.

Cameron has been babbling on and on for a long time about how important the Coalition is - Yardi Yardi Yarda.Why then Did Scameron not even talk through this with Nick Clegg especially when they love Europe like a pig loves Muck?

[peterms]

Except in our case it suck money and talent from other countries around the world and brings it in to the UK to be spent here in both tax revenues and goods and services.

It is a massive advantage the UK has and Merkel and Sarkozy have coveted the UK financial industry for a long time ..

I've found a pictorial representation of the relationship of the finance industry with its host countries.

What we should be doing is finding ways to contain, control, and break up the finance industry into far smaller, accountable and properly regulated parts where risk is fenced off.

Looking at the tax revenue (far less than it should be) and being grateful for that is rather like having your home infested with vampire bats and thinking how lucky you are that you can use the guano for the garden.

[meregreen]

No it was meant as a broader definition of what Drat labels 'little Englanders', by which he means a closet nazi, itching to rebuild the gas chambers.

What a dreadful thing to say. I don't believe for one minute that Drat thinks that. Rather he probably thinks of " Little Englanders" as those people whose narrow views of the world tends to preclude taking a broader more internationalist stance on many of the problems facing us. Using such insulting and derogatory alalogies as the one you throw at Drat simply makes me think that perhaps in your case the cap is rather a good fit.

[snowychap]

No it was meant as a broader definition of what Drat labels 'little Englanders', by which he means a closet nazi, itching to rebuild the gas chambers.

Cameron (despite doing the right thing on this issue) is part of the current political machine and therefore in hock to vested interests as much as the rest - blue and red.

Okay.

Going back to this issue (and apologies in advance for the semantics) but I would suggest it is more of a case of backing the right horse than doing the right thing - perhaps, though, it's more of a case of not backing the one-toothed old nag sweating up like a bastard in the parade ring.

Another point, if Cameron had agreed to the proposal it would have meant UK budgets going to Brussels for pre-approval before presentation to the country, plus financial penalties for going over EU set deficit limits. That would totally roger Ed Balls recovery prescription, wouldn't it?

Not only that, it's barmy.

Also as with most, if not all, 'golden rules', it will go out of the window the moment it becomes inconvenient to those in/with power. So. likely unworkable, too.

...Why then Did Scameron not even talk through this with Nick Clegg...

Why do you think he didn't?

I hope it's going to be one of the more interesting byproducts of this - what the Lib Dems do.

I've not seen hide nor hair of Clegg in the last couple of days (may just have missed him - perhaps he ought to don a hi-vis); seen very little of Beaker, Cable and others. I have seen Ed Davey talking about how reasonable it all was and so on (I think offering support), Oakeshott having an argument with Bernard Jenkin on Newsnight last night and other lower level Lib Dems expressing unhappiness.

I suspect that the Oakeshott opinion is more representative of Lib Dems and that Clegg et al would suck off satan to remain in their cabinet posts (I'll probably now be proved wrong by some major resignation/statement or something).

[LondonLax]

Clegg made a statement basically saying that he agreed with Cameron. Does he still represent the Lib dems anymore?

[snowychap]

Clegg made a statement basically saying that he agreed with Cameron. Does he still represent the Lib dems anymore?

Did he? Like I said, I must have missed it.

Perhaps he does. Perhaps he hasn't for a while.

[peterms]

...Early in the day, the Liberal Democrats publicly welcomed the position struck by Cameron and maintained it was part of the range of options agreed between the prime minister and Clegg before Cameron left for Brussels.

Clegg, in a carefully worded statement, said: "The demands Britain made for safeguards, on which the coalition government was united, were modest and reasonable. They were safeguards for the single market, not just the UK. There were no demands of repatriation of powers from the EU to Britain and no demands for a unilateral carve-out of UK financial services."

His advisers echoed that, pointing out the summit had seen no treaty renegotiated and so no need for the referendum demanded by the Tory backbenches...

...But Lord Ashdown, the former leader of the Liberal Democrats and a passionate pro-European, said the events in Brussels were "Gallic payback time for the way in which Cameron went around Europe lecturing Sarkozy on what to do. The British asks were not rejected because we asked too much. They were rejected because they came from Mr Cameron."

The business secretary, Vince Cable, is known to have thought that the European position on regulating the City could be dealt with and need not be vetoed.

Lord Oakeshott, a Lib Dem close to Cable, said: "It is a black day for Britain and Europe.

"We are now in the waiting room while critical decisions are being taken. By pulling out of the main centre-right grouping in Europe and linking up with the wackos and weirdos in eastern Europe instead, David Cameron has seriously undermined Britain's influence."

Here.

[VILLAFC2000]

Clegg made a statement basically saying that he agreed with Cameron. Does he still represent the Lib dems anymore?

It would not surprise me...!

Have you got the link.

[VILLAFC2000]

t;]

...Why then Did Scameron not even talk through this with Nick Clegg...

Why do you think he didn't?

I or something).

Why do I think he didnt ?

Clegg could bring down this Coalition at any stage. As I have already said the Fib Dems are the most pro Europe Party there is in this country.

Its going to be interesting so see the results of the Lib Dems at the next GE. There supporeters are FUMING and I mean FUMING. This will be shown in the next GE. Scameron can forget forming another coalition. Another unwise move.

[snowychap]

Why do I think he didnt ?

Clegg could bring down this Coalition at any stage.

If that were the case, why do you think that would mean that Cameron would not have consulted with Clegg? Surely it would reinforce the idea that he would speak to him?

Indeed, I can only think of two reasons why Cameron might not have spoken to Clegg about it: either that Clegg told him aforehand that he should do whatever he thought and he would bring his lot in to line, or that Cameron couldn't care less about having the Lib Dems in coalition (judging by their use of Beaker especially in the last few weeks I don't believe they'd throw away such a useful tool).

[VILLAFC2000]

Why do I think he didnt ?

Clegg could bring down this Coalition at any stage.

If that were the case, why do you think that would mean that Cameron would not have consulted with Clegg? Surely it would reinforce the idea that he would speak to him?

LOL

Indeed, I can only think of two reasons why Cameron might not have spoken to Clegg about it: either that Clegg told him aforehand that he should do whatever he thought and he would bring his lot in to line, or that Cameron couldn't care less about having the Lib Dems in coalition (judging by their use of Beaker especially in the last few weeks I don't believe they'd throw away such a useful tool).

Exacly the point this will come back and bite him on the arse.

[peterms]

Except in our case it suck money and talent from other countries around the world and brings it in to the UK to be spent here in both tax revenues and goods and services.

It is a massive advantage the UK has and Merkel and Sarkozy have coveted the UK financial industry for a long time ..

A bit more on this.

The MF Global scam (the missing $1.2bn) is an interesting illustration of the City of London sucking in money and talent from elsewhere. I had thought, as did many others, that this corrupt outfit run by the former head of Goldman Sachs, had simply ripped off the people who invested with him.

In fact, it's a story of how the lax regulation in the City facilitates dodgy dealings which aren't permitted in other jurisdictions - in this case, the US. MF Global have been using investors' funds many times over via "re-hypothecation", a device which moves dealings off the balance sheet. Many other firms do this. By 2007, this apparently accounted for about half the activity of the unregulated shadow banking system. The US has strict limits on the extent of hypothecation of assets - the UK doesn't. MF Global, like Lehman Brothers before it, shifted clients' funds to London to re-hypothecate over and over, ending with a volume of transactions which far outstripped the assets which were supposed to be covering them.

But it's not just one or two rogue firms. They're all at it. Thomson Reuters describe it as very widespread, and closely linked to the Eurozone bond issue, because these firms have been betting on Eurozone sovereign default but have used a high level of leverage to maximise their potential gains - and losses, without having the backing to cover such losses. Like last time. Over-leveraging, under-regulation, and massive greed, leading to disaster.

...With weak collateral rules and a level of leverage that would make Archimedes tremble, firms have been piling into re-hypothecation activity with startling abandon. A review of filings reveals a staggering level of activity in what may be the world’s largest ever credit bubble.

Engaging in hyper-hypothecation have been Goldman Sachs ($28.17 billion re-hypothecated in 2011), Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce (re-pledged $72 billion in client assets), Royal Bank of Canada (re-pledged $53.8 billion of $126.7 billion available for re-pledging), Oppenheimer Holdings ($15.3 million), Credit Suisse (CHF 332 billion), Knight Capital Group ($1.17 billion),Interactive Brokers ($14.5 billion), Wells Fargo ($19.6 billion), JP Morgan($546.2 billion) and Morgan Stanley ($410 billion).

Nor is lending confined to between banks. Intra-bank re-hypothecation is also possible as evidenced by filings from Wells Fargo. According to disclosures from Wachovia Preferred Funding Corp, its parent, Wells Fargo, acts as collateral custodian and has the right to re-hypothecate and use around $170 million of assets posted as collateral.

LIQUIDITY CRISIS

The volume and level of re-hypothecation suggests a frightening alternative hypothesis for the current liquidity crisis being experienced by banks and for why regulators around the world decided to step in to prop up the markets recently. To date, reports have been focused on how Eurozone default concerns were provoking fear in the markets and causing liquidity to dry up.

Most have been focused on how a Eurozone default would result in huge losses in Eurozone bonds being felt across the world’s banks. However, re-hypothecation suggests an even greater fear. Considering that re-hypothecation may have increased the financial footprint of Eurozone bonds by at least four fold then a Eurozone sovereign default could be apocalyptic...

Ann Pettifor also discusses the issue, concluding

Europe’s central bank ‘loosened collateral standards’ for all those shadowy banks borrowing for – amongst other forms of speculation – hypothecation. The ECB is acknowledging that most bank collateral is not real. It is phantom.

Touchingly, the banks supported by the ECB are not European banks. They are global banks and/or financial institutions with branches/subsidiaries in Europe, most of which shelter under the regulatory umbrella of the City of London. Their practices are not unlike those of MF Global; but the bulk of their losses, when they come, will almost certainly be transferred to the taxpayers of Europe.

The tragedy is this: when the global financial system implodes in an ‘apocalyptic’ collapse, both our politicians, central bankers and regulators will once again be guilty of wilful and gross neglect. Corrupted by financial interests; ideologically bound to the ‘light-touch regulation’ of monetarists and other quack-economists, they have (deliberately?) been distracted by a far less serious matter: the debts of sovereigns.

These, compared to the debts of the shadow private banking system, can be considered trivial. Furthermore, the rise in public debts is nothing but the consequence of the debts of the private financial system. Without fixing the broken global banking system, there can be little hope of even the European Court of Justice imposing and enforcing ‘budgetary discipline’.

Which is why today’s EU summitry is so futile.

[peterms]

Inside Job. Still on Iplayer, but not for much longer.

[peterms]

Oh dear. Someone seems to have explained to Nick that what he thought he thought was not in fact what he thought.

Nick Clegg turns fire on David Cameron over Europe veto

Liberal Democrat leader 'furious at prime minister's tactics' as Paddy Ashdown voices fears over isolation

I suppose it's hard to keep up when you're a very important person being consulted at every turn about the country's fortunes, kept closely in the loop and constantly used as a sounding board by the PM. It would wear anyone down, so it would. No wonder he makes a slight mistake every now and then about what he actually thinks. Could happen to anyone.

[VILLAFC2000]

Definitely recommend Inside Job.

These corporate Banks are exactly the banks that Cameron is fighting for and whose interests Scameron truly represents.

Labour are the in the hands of the trade unions no more so than the Tories being in the hands of London's Banks.

It was the banks that caused the Global recession which will cause a generation of rebuilding.

Remember a vote for Scameron is a vote for the Coreperate fat cat bankers.

[Awol]

I would suggest it is more of a case of backing the right horse than doing the right thing - perhaps, though, it's more of a case of not backing the one-toothed old nag sweating up like a bastard in the parade ring.

Quite. Ignoring the media froth about UK's current 'isolation' for a moment (akin to politely refusing a seat on the Titanic), what exactly did the members of the EZ achieve at this summit?

There seems to be an agreement that the ECB will lend 200 billion Euro to the IMF which the latter will channel to Italy - she needs to refinance approx 450 billion next year with bond yields currently sat at 6.8%. Aside from this being a device to subvert the charter of the ECB (which is verbotten from lending directly to member States) the numbers involved amount to mere tokenism.

The ESM which is due to come in in July 2012 can theoretically put another 500 billion into the bailout pot. Thing is, no one has said where this magic money is going to come from because the ECB is still not legally allowed to 'print' on the scale required to create it.

The 'where' might be answered by looking at the ESM's powers:

1)It can compel EZ nations to give it an unlimited amount of money within seven days of any demand.

2) Will be exempt from legal action by any nation states.

3) Its staff will have immunity from prosecution.

It's literally a licence for the EU to rob Euro using nations - amazingly there has been very little in the media about it. Thank God Osborne managed to get us out of supporting it.

The EZ members are not dealing with the core problems they face and instead are engaged in a delusional economic suicide pact - while simultaneously murdering European democracy.

Before the summit William Hill were offering 3/1 on EZ break up. Now? 3/1. The system is insolvent and the debts held by banks are so vast they are likely to bring down the entire rotten thing.

Once the dam breaks I suspect that things will get very bad, very quickly.

[VILLAFC2000]

Clegg made a statement basically saying that he agreed with Cameron. Does he still represent the Lib dems anymore?

Do you actually have a clue.

" Clegg made a statement basically saying he agreed with Scameron"

Where did you get this ine from the Daily Fail...?

Clegg says he is outraged by this. Not a wise move from Scameron at all. Clegg can bring this Coalition down at any moment, he needs to start playing his cards better.

He is said to be outraged he was rung at 4 in the morning to be told we are going it alone.

I find it difficult to believe anything he says so it could all be a smokescreen.