chrisp65 Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 Recognising a country’s right to exist is no endorsement of its current murderous regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted May 23 VT Supporter Share Posted May 23 We'll consider letting you exist if you're nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bielesibub Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 20 minutes ago, magnkarl said: How did that Oslo accord work out with Norway’s best bud Arafat, who decided to turn down the peace deal as it would’ve cut his cash cow? I don't think it was as one sided, didn't Mr N have some input? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 (edited) I mean read anything on the Oslo accord in any detail and you can see there were major issues with it like the right of return, the right of self determination for Palestinians, the issues of illegal settlements. Pro Zionists will say it was the best deal they were gonna get but that’s like saying Gaza was great before Hamas got involved. It’s disingenuous. Edited May 23 by omariqy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 (edited) 7 hours ago, bielesibub said: I don't think it was as one sided, didn't Mr N have some input? That was sort of the point. Who’s holding Palestine accountable for their issues? Pretty much no one. I’d say that supporting Palestinian statehood is very important, but it doesn’t need to be a state that treats its people like ISIS did. Just like aid for Israel should come with massive conditions, the same should be applied to Palestine. I’m not seeing much of that. The PA can just keep right on, and still get support for their wish. People jump straight past the point where polling shows a majority of Palestinians wanting to wipe out Israel (see support Hamas). It wouldn’t be far-fetched to demand some sort of betterment for the Palestinian people as a condition for support, some action plan against the rabid corruption, rights for their ethnic and sexual minorities, women and so forth. It’s naive to think that it’ll end the spiral when Palestine is home to some of the worst ideologies in the world. Edited May 24 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 6 hours ago, omariqy said: I mean read anything on the Oslo accord in any detail and you can see there were major issues with it like the right of return, the right of self determination for Palestinians, the issues of illegal settlements. Pro Zionists will say it was the best deal they were gonna get but that’s like saying Gaza was great before Hamas got involved. It’s disingenuous. Sure there were issues. How about the deals Arabs rejected the other times? It’s not like there weren’t other chances. But let’s just ignore that, doesn’t suit the victim mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted May 24 VT Supporter Share Posted May 24 Mearsheimer isn't someone I particularly like but he's mostly bang on in this. Nothing earth shattering for anyone paying attention but it's unusual to see someone speak so openly and bluntly about this all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 2 hours ago, Chindie said: Mearsheimer isn't someone I particularly like but he's mostly bang on in this. Nothing earth shattering for anyone paying attention but it's unusual to see someone speak so openly and bluntly about this all. You need to dig very deep when you need to look for views from the American George Galloway to justify whatever it is you’re intending to say. Often praised by lovely people, that John. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted May 24 VT Supporter Share Posted May 24 ICJ orders immediate halt to Rafah offensive. Anti-semitism claims filed already you suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 2 minutes ago, Chindie said: ICJ orders immediate halt to Rafah offensive. Anti-semitism claims filed already you suspect. Will they listen? Will they ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted May 24 VT Supporter Share Posted May 24 6 minutes ago, omariqy said: Will they listen? Will they ****. Well, yeah. The court has no power outside of it's moral standing really, and Israel won't be stopped because America won't stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 ICJ are Hamas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bielesibub Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 9 hours ago, magnkarl said: That was sort of the point. Who’s holding Palestine accountable for their issues? Pretty much no one. I’d say that supporting Palestinian statehood is very important, but it doesn’t need to be a state that treats its people like ISIS did. Just like aid for Israel should come with massive conditions, the same should be applied to Palestine. I’m not seeing much of that. The PA can just keep right on, and still get support for their wish. People jump straight past the point where polling shows a majority of Palestinians wanting to wipe out Israel (see support Hamas). It wouldn’t be far-fetched to demand some sort of betterment for the Palestinian people as a condition for support, some action plan against the rabid corruption, rights for their ethnic and sexual minorities, women and so forth. It’s naive to think that it’ll end the spiral when Palestine is home to some of the worst ideologies in the world. Sorry I missed that point. In that region of the world it has been almost impossible to hold anyone to account or even criticise what they have done/doing without being bashed over the head with a big stick. If a vast majority of Palestinians want to wipe out Israel because they voted for Hamas, by that same token you also mean the vast majority of Israelis want this death and destruction in Gaza? Both Israel (by which I mean the people running the show) and Hamas need to be sent to different rooms and only let out once they've had a good think about what they have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bielesibub Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-69055989 Quote The International Court of Justice rules that Israel must halt its military offensive in Rafah in southern Gaza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 (edited) 3 hours ago, bielesibub said: Sorry I missed that point. In that region of the world it has been almost impossible to hold anyone to account or even criticise what they have done/doing without being bashed over the head with a big stick. If a vast majority of Palestinians want to wipe out Israel because they voted for Hamas, by that same token you also mean the vast majority of Israelis want this death and destruction in Gaza? Both Israel (by which I mean the people running the show) and Hamas need to be sent to different rooms and only let out once they've had a good think about what they have done. Hamas has 58% support in Gaza and well over 40% in the WB for what they did. Far more than the lousy 15% for Israel’s government. There’s a massive difference in there somewhere. One people keeps starting wars in barbaric manners and the other finishes it in the same way. One won’t stop without the other. Full support for Palestine means supporting a people where half of it wants to keep up the violence by all means necessary on the behest of the darkest powers in the ME. No one talks about it. It’s crowded out by faux outrage and protests for anything but the Palestinian people. Don’t dare question PA, Fatah, UNRWA or the never ending spiral they’re on to launder money. Edited May 24 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bielesibub Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 2 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Hamas has 58% support on Gaza and well over 40% in the WB for what they did. Far more than the lousy 15% for Israel’s government. wow, what a fantastically democratic country Israel is if it lets a government take control with only 15% of the vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 1 minute ago, bielesibub said: wow, what a fantastically democratic country Israel is if it lets a government take control with only 15% of the vote. Polls, they’re actually a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bielesibub Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 1 minute ago, magnkarl said: Polls, they’re actually a thing. oh, I get you. not sure how I would be if I was polled about if I supported my government while I was being shot at, forced from my home, starved, tortured by the other side. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 (edited) 17 minutes ago, bielesibub said: oh, I get you. not sure how I would be if I was polled about if I supported my government while I was being shot at, forced from my home, starved, tortured by the other side. Supported the actions of 7/10 more like. Selective judgement really isn’t good, Israeli or Palestinian alike. By your argument of ‘they started it’, surely Israel being invaded every 5 or so years justifies a lot, no? Or are we not using your logic for your team? Reuters Quote Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found. Tacitly supporting either side in this dumpster fire of a conflict (like millions are in London every weekend) is asinine. It emboldens whichever side you’re supporting. Some actual improvements from Palestine’s government before one gives them the all clear to keep on keeping on would be a good idea, no? Edited May 24 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bielesibub Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 52 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Supported the actions of 7/10 more like. Selective judgement really isn’t good, Israeli or Palestinian alike. By your argument of ‘they started it’, surely Israel being invaded every 5 or so years justifies a lot, no? Or are we not using your logic for your team? Reuters Tacitly supporting either side in this dumpster fire of a conflict (like millions are in London every weekend) is asinine. It emboldens whichever side you’re supporting. Some actual improvements from Palestine’s government before one gives them the all clear to keep on keeping on would be a good idea, no? I'm not sure what I've said that has meant you've been able to twist it that I made an argument of 'they started it', puerile. Israel being invaded every 5 years or so is utterly awful, and I'd never say otherwise so please don't try putting words in my mouth, likewise I guess being suppressed is also awful as you say there is a load of bad on each side. as you say there is utter filth happening on both sides, both sides look utterly sad and desperate. As for 'my team' childishness, good luck. mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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