Popular Post bickster Posted January 20, 2023 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted January 20, 2023 2 hours ago, villakram said: Echo chamber much. Irony much 2 hours ago, villakram said: There were plenty of statements of a nationalistic tinge from the Ukrainian leadership over the past number of years and a move to disavow the Minsk II process. Not that any different should be really expected from the leaders of any country under threat (real or imagined, but that's a broader discussion). There was an ongoing slow burn conflict in the Donbass and many statements that they would take back the "rebel" areas. You realise at the time you are talking about Russia had already invaded Ukraine, annexed Crimea and had troops on the ground in the Donbas. They’d already broken the Minsk Agreement. 2 hours ago, villakram said: There were also other interesting things occurring and/or planned, e.g., increasing large NATO exercises were planned to be hosted with the Ukrainian military. Ukraine and NATO already held a joint exercise in Ukraine in the Autumn of 2021. 4,000 Ukraine troops and 2,000 NATO, which sounds like a massive massive threat to Russia except they were held at the same time as the ZAPAD exercises jointly held between Belarus and Russia. The ZAPAD exercises involved 200,000 troops and given the size of Belarus’ military, the vast majority of those troops were Russian. So which one was the threat again? 2 hours ago, villakram said: Now, if reading all of the above has triggered "Russia is justified in this war", which is not nor has been stated anywhere, you ought to question why that is so. Why is it that this cannot be discussed and instead, Russia bad is the only thing worth saying. No reading all of the above just made me realise what rubbish you’ve swallowed and believed without looking at it objectively You can discus what you want here but when you’re spouting nonsense that is demonstrably untrue and then evading questions that pick you up on your factual errors, expect to be challenged in those opinions. Also, if a 6,000 troops exercise in Ukraine triggered the second Russian Invasion of this war why did none of the joint NATO / Finland exercises held in Finland trigger a Russian invasion of Finland? 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
It's Your Round Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 17 hours ago, magnkarl said: With all the stabbings in the UK these days, how the hell as this clown escaped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 Ukraine war latest: Wagner mercenary group boss writes to the White House; US urges Ukraine to hold off on major offensive | World News | Sky News Head of Wagner mercenary group writes to the White House Yevgeny Prigozhin, financier for the infamous Wagner Group, has penned a short letter to the White House demanding to know what crime his company is being accused of. The US has announced new sanctions on the group, which is fighting in some of the fiercest hotspots in Ukraine. As of yesterday, the Wagner Group has been designated a significant Transnational Criminal Organisation by the US. Mr Prigozhin shared the letter, which was written in English and addressed to White House national security spokesperson John Kirby, on his Telegram channel. "Dear Mr Kirby, Could you please clarify what crime was committed by PMC Wagner?" he wrote. Mr Kirby had called Wagner a "a criminal organization that is committing widespread atrocities and human rights abuses". Wagner is a private military group known for its ruthlessness and for recruiting convicts from Russian prisons. Bit of stupidity in this, but maybe not. I mean what crime haven't Wagner committed would be the more reasonable question to ask. I think Prigozhin is going to eventually become a fall guy in this being one of the potentially dispensable characters. Which I think is the reason he's been trying to create a charm offensive in his treatment of Ukrainian POW's and ensuring his little moments of goodwill are captured on film. Now trying to dialogue independently with Washington whilst becoming more out front in Russia. Back covering at it's finest from both sides probably realising Putin can't be relied upon if Russia folds and even if they don't he'll still be a target for the west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 I get so annoyed with Russian supporters who immediately point out that the historic crimes of the US, UK et al. But when you point out that the USSR actually helped the Nazis take Poland they don’t like that accusation. Suddenly the USSR is not the same as Russia. Then you point out all the things where Russia is happy to take credit for the achievements of the USSR. We beat the Nazis. We had the first man in space. Etc. Ask any Russian supporter who pulls the “we are not the USSR” why they keep the mummified body of the creator of the USSR on public display in their capital city. The problem is simple. History. They know nothing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 They have no idea that Russians and Nazis queued up for days to get tickets to Freddie Mercury’s concert in Poland in 1939. (That comment and picture annoys them on soooooooooo many levels) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 21, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2023 52 minutes ago, avfc1982am said: I think Prigozhin is going to eventually become a fall guy in this being one of the potentially dispensable characters. There's a biiger chance of him becoming the next Putin Unlike all the others vying for the throne they imagine will be vacated. Wagner has money outside of the Rublezone. They own gold mines in Central African Republic, that is expected to generate a billions dollars in profit for Wagner, this year alone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 8 minutes ago, bickster said: There's a biiger chance of him becoming the next Putin Unlike all the others vying for the throne they imagine will be vacated. Wagner has money outside of the Rublezone. They own gold mines in Central African Republic, that is expected to generate a billions dollars in profit for Wagner, this year alone I'm not so sure he could become the next Putin or even Russian leader. I think that is well out of his own comfort zone and reach but time will tell I suppose. His background in my opinion is more than enough to keep him away from the throne of Russia. He's a common criminal, a thug and a thief, not a politician and probably doesn't have the kind of personality that would be able command respect in the Kremlin. Especially from those that see themselves as the elite. He might have Putins ear now, but once that is gone I just don't see others standing with him. I think there is more chance of him trying to align himself with someone else than take the hotseat. I don't think any amount of gold mines could save him either if certain entities, not just in Russia but elsewhere want him gone at some point. He owns a mercenary group, not any official title, official position nor have any sort of diplomatic protection to hide behind. The fact that he is now worth billions puts a bigger price tag on his head imo. Like I said, we'll see. He could be the surprise in all this, I may be completely wrong(good chance btw) and somehow he comes out smelling of roses but I have my doubts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 21, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2023 47 minutes ago, avfc1982am said: I'm not so sure he could become the next Putin or even Russian leader. I think that is well out of his own comfort zone and reach but time will tell I suppose. He's the only one with the financial muscle and the troop numbers to defeat the official Russian military When Putin goes, it's hard to see it not being a shitshow Civil War The Russian military will want to regain power that they've lost to the likes of Wagner and the FSB I can't see there being a peaceful transference of power 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 4 minutes ago, bickster said: He's the only one with the financial muscle and the troop numbers to defeat the official Russian military When Putin goes, it's hard to see it not being a shitshow Civil War The Russian military will want to regain power that they've lost to the likes of Wagner and the FSB I can't see there being a peaceful transference of power I totally agree about the Russian military wanting power back which is why I don't think Russians will get behind Prigozhin. I do however, see someone like Medvedev taking the reins and blaming Putin for everything. Even if others persuaded him on the direction he's decided to take Russia. And I total agree that whatever happens it's hard to see anything other than a shitshow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 At some stage there will be a civil war in Russia. Wagner, various generals and various ethnic groups. Gorbachev made sure that the break up of the USSR didn’t resemble the break up of Yugoslavia. That was an amazing achievement. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 2 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: At some stage there will be a civil war in Russia. Wagner, various generals and various ethnic groups. Gorbachev made sure that the break up of the USSR didn’t resemble the break up of Yugoslavia. That was an amazing achievement. The thing is that most of the soldiers in the Russian armed forces are not ethnically Russian. It wouldn’t be hard for Chechnya, Dagestan, Irkutsk etc to leave as they’ve already got the manpower and guns to do so, even if they are dwindling in numbers. Putin will have essentially done what the Whites did in the Russian civil war where only the upper classes were ever handed a proper rank. The Russian part of Russia doesn’t have the stomach for Putin’s aims, and will likely be brushed aside by both Ukraine and a resurgent Dagestan/Chechnya or whichever group they’ve used as cannon fodder since Soviet times. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 Sholz is currently the laughing stock of his own country and Europe. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 21, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2023 18 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Sholz is currently the laughing stock of his own country Nah, Germans in polling are against sending tanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted January 21, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted January 21, 2023 Just now, bickster said: Nah, Germans in polling are against sending tanks Are they against sending in their own tanks though or against allowing other countries to send in their own Leopards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 17 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Sholz is currently the laughing stock of his own country and Europe. The pissy thing about is is allies have already about 2,000 of these between them that could be sent straight to Ukraine. Germany don't even need to use there own stock. The whole idea of licencing agreement is bullshit tbh. Especially when everyman and his dog have them in stock. It's not like the tech is that secretive anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 Germany sending tanks through Poland to fight Russia. It's not like it's breaking new ground. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 52 minutes ago, bickster said: Nah, Germans in polling are against sending tanks Some nuance to said polling though, they are polling evenly about sending German stock. Re-export isn’t in a poll is it? If I was about to buy a tank these days I’d probably not get it from Germany. They’d find some excuse for any sort of use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 21, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2023 1 minute ago, magnkarl said: Some nuance to said polling though, they are polling evenly about sending German stock. Re-export isn’t in a poll is it? If I was about to buy a tank these days I’d probably not get it from Germany. They’d find some excuse for any sort of use. It amounts to the same thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboy54 Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 I wonder if Putin has Sholz in his pocket? , e.g. Putin tells Sholz to delay for as long as possible the decision to send tanks meanwhile Putin tells Sholz, your Swiss bank account is becoming very healthy ....thank you. Another factor about this is the fallacy of EU being one happy family...it takes something like this to highlight the cracks..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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