jackbauer24

It's been known to happen http://www.independent.co.uk/news/parachutist-breaks-legs-in-santa-stunt-1191299.html Too soon?!

Whilst looking for OS news I saw we confirmed that Bowery had left on a permanent move to Rotherham. So losing the quality of Bowery for washed up Cole... Im ok with it

Where are people getting this 'official' info and photos from?! Don't doubt it but just interested - nothing on OS, Newsnow or BBC...

So to sum up; we've been told nothing from the club but... Rumour from ITK - either it's definitely true or it's made up cr*p Rumour from paper (tabloid) - it's positive news and it's possible or it's negative news and they don't know what they're talking about it. Rumour from paper (broadsheet) - it's positive news and it must be true or it's negative and we're doomed (unless they don't know what they're talking about...) Rumour from paper (local) - it's positive and it's carefully released PR from club or it's negative and the reporter is a blues fan. Rumour from website - check blacklisted sites (update list if needed) and then refer to above. Something else happens - it means takeover is definitely happening imminently, it means takeover definitely isn't happening soon or it's unrelated as it doesn't fit a point. Basically all information fits in to one of the above and can be construed absolutely any way you want and the situation is Villa haven't been sold yet and haven't signed anyone yet. Up to date?!

After the last few days I'm, for once, a bit more optimistic about our chances of survival should the status quo remain. I still believe Lambert has a near impossible task but with Okore back that'd improve defence, Bent would be better than Bowery/ Holt, N'Zogbia better than Albrighton. Not a penny spent. Furthermore we have a few more wages off the books and rumours are Lescott would drop his wages to reasonable level and be free. I'd feel quite confident about a defence with Vlaar, Okore and Lescott available with Clark/ Baker/ Lowton as appropriate. Just no Bennett or Hutton please. An available strike force of Gabby, Weimann and Bent whilst waiting on Kozak and Benteke would be ok. Then midfield which is still easily weakest area and is reason defence has so much pressure, just needs maybe one £5/6m pound decent investment on one player and I think Lambert would comfortably get us 10th to 12th with minimal injury disruptions. Forgetting all the takeover speculation, I think we might have enough to survive again after bringing in the Bomb Squad, a few key returns from injury and a very small investment (which is all we're likely to get) from Lerner into a possibly free defender and an experienced midfielder.

Got to love the different way people interpret the same information. Information - info is PR Spin/ info isn't the whole story/ info is 100% accurate. The information doesn't change just the different views on it based on previous speculation. It's interesting reading all the different views and speculation but the only thing I take for a fact is that we are for sale with no timescale on if and when we'll be sold.

Whilst no-one by any stretch of the imagination thinks it has been a successful season, it is interesting to note that with a win against Spurs it is perfectly feasible we could finish the season 12th. Now that actually would be progress. It probably won't happen but I still think the abuse Lambert has been getting is unfair.

Staffing, policing and admin match days probably. Plus loads of kid tickets for £1.

I too can see beyond simple results to say whether Lambert is rubbish or not. NO-ONE here is saying it has been a successful season, no-one is saying Lambert is beyond reproach and no-one is saying he hasn't made mistakes BUT what I think of the more rational people here are saying is that the fault lies far more with others than Lambert. It really comes down to where you sit on the amount of responsibility he holds. There are a number of factors, many discussed and not limited to: The Bomb Squad (could/should have used them? Who knows, maybe he wasn't allowed) The Signings (better ones injured, some mixed bag - is he not fairly similar with most when it comes to successes? And Lowton comments annoy me... fine last season - knee jerk reactions as a poor signing) The Glass Ceiling (where do people think we could have achieved with same investment - me personally, I think no higher than 12th - so at the moment he's four places below that) Tactics (tactics have been good enough to beat big teams and lose to rubbish teams - does this not say more about the quality of the players?) Public Relations (tell the fans what Lerner wants "remit/plan" etc and you're a yes man. Tell fans we need investment and he's not filling current players with confidence) Results (loss to lower league teams, very annoying and I made feelings clear, but not exactly unknown for Villa teams! And then very good results against bigger teams this year) I don't think any fan is saying it hasn't been an atrocious year but I think a few of us can see there are mitigating circumstances and are prepared to give Lambert the benefit of the doubt as regards staying on. I wouldn't say I'm Pro-Lambert, or a a Lambert Lover, but I certainly think it is too short sighted to just say he's failed, next please and not look at the route cause. McLeish just survived and we had the Bomb Squad available. Lambert doesn't seem to have had this and has lost some key players this year. He's not perfect but I think people are getting angry at the wrong person.

Err...that's where I'd have to disagree on pretty much the same basis. I don't believe that every "chef" would've spent his budget on "crap ingredients". Again you are saying that every other manager couldn't have spent £40m any better. Not a belief I share. Ok, I agree with you to an extent with the "glass ceiling" thing but I believe the ceiling under Lerner is that we cannot achieve any higher than mid-table mediocrity. The problem with Lambert is that he has proven he is incapable of even managing that. I don't believe that other half-decent managers would of actually regressed the team in their second season. I don't believe that they would've squandered most of their budget on a bunch of dross who have no right to play at this level. Nor do I believe that their coaching methods would be so poor that the team would still look like a bunch of strangers incapable of stringing a few passes together two years down the line. I think we understand each other then My personal view is the glass ceiling is lower than you think it is and that is where, perhaps, the difference in the expectation of the manager comes from. My view is there has been a fair bit of bad luck this season which has contributed to the stagnation/ regression. Don't get me wrong, I'm a season ticket holder and have seen the crap we serve week on week and don't think Lambert is amazing or anything, I just happen to think very few managers we could attract would do noticeably better. And, for example using Pulis, would you want that manager if fighting for Europe? Accepting a manager who's an expert at relegation fights seems a bit defeatist to me.

That's nearly my view. I did say 'much'. I think with the level of investment, the wage limit and the injuries we've had this year it was always going to be a relegation battle. Another manager might have got us safe a game ago or we could be deeper in relegation trouble like Cardiff. I think the points haul would have been negligible. In fact, I think the only way we would have got more points is if we'd tried to play for more draws. Yes, by "any better" I meant significantly better as you are basically suggesting. To actually believe this means one of two things: 1) You completely underestimate the importance of a manager. By your logic, I could turn around and say that most other managers would also have Atléti where they are right now. As according to you, every manager does pretty much exactly the same job with the same resources. 2) You actually think Lambert is so good that if this is the best he can manage then it is incomprehendable that another manager could significantly out-do him. I don't underestimate the importance of the manager. I just personally believe that there is a ceiling at this club that very few managers could break. I think with the investment that is there, the injuries we've had to key players that very few managers could have got us higher than, say, 15th. And it still wouldn't be acceptable in my eyes but I think the focus is on completely the wrong person. It is impossible to please the fans with the level of investment we currently have. I don't think Lambert is so good. I think he's made some mistakes and he's infuriated me with some of his tactics. But no different that most other managers. I just happen to think starting again with a new manager with the same constraints will make virtually no difference and we'll all be back here in two years saying he was rubbish too.

That's nearly my view. I did say 'much'. I think with the level of investment, the wage limit and the injuries we've had this year it was always going to be a relegation battle. Another manager might have got us safe a game ago or we could be deeper in relegation trouble like Cardiff. I think the points haul would have been negligible. In fact, I think the only way we would have got more points is if we'd tried to play for more draws.

I can see why people have different views, and we all see things in a different way but I'm surprised by the very black and white view a majority of the people on here seem to have. The hatred towards him seems unjust, but I'm no advocate of blind support either. I don't understand how people can't get their heads round the fact that if your resources are continuously stripped then, however good you are at your job, the outcome will be worse every year. If Villa have got worse year on year is that because we keep getting worse managers or keep stripping back the talent. McLeish could call upon more experienced heads on far higher wages, and we just survived. We have stripped even further AND lost players to major injuries. How is this not a valid point? If you think he's not good enough for Villa then fine, that's your right. But to state the reason for this as him buying Bowery instead of Milner or having less points than when we had better players is incredibly short sighted and exactly what Lerner wants. Wrong target. For me, he's made mistakes like every other manager we've ever had. Some signings have been good, others awful but for me, he deserves at least a go with investment. I don't think any manager in the division would have got us much, if any higher, with the same limitations. It's not acceptable but it's too easy to put it on the manager.

With those financial constraints most managers ( the ones that know what they are doing ) would not take the job in the first place. The fact that Lambert took the job with those conditions shows the extent of his knowledge of Football and the Premier League. This comment amuses me if I'm reading it right. Basically you are saying he's an inept manager because he accepted the job knowing that the financial constraints we're nearly impossible? So therefore, whoever gets the job next is useless the second they say "I'll take the job"...

Yet the players have shown on a few occasions they are capable, so the lack of funds as a blanket defence for his performance as manager doesn't excuse how he has done imo. <Insert relevant cake based metaphor here> That works both ways - maybe they are naturally crap players that he has got to over-perform for a period. I'm genuinely not pro-Lambert despite what last few messages imply. If he leaves, he leaves. I won't be gutted. But I personally don't think he, or anyone else, stands a chance with the level of investment being put in regards transfers and wages.

We couldn't afford Holt by on loan last time... Interesting query though; which camp are you in on as regards spending a budget as it as come up in a few threads? Do you spend all the money on one, two or three players but risk them being injured with kids for back up or do you spread the 'bet' with more lower quality players?

Benteke, Vlaar, Okore and Kozak make up approximately half his budget. Three of those are significantly injured and have been for a majority of the campaign. The other half has been spent on some crap and some ok. The 'fact' he can't put together a side with fluidity/ organisation/ talent to even pass the ball could be equally due to the fact he can't buy those players. He might see it but be able to do nothing about it as the money isnt there. He could have chucked all the money at one or two players instead of 6 or 7 but we have a painfully thin squad as it is. If I ask you to make a cake with no eggs what do you do? You either say it's impossible and leave or make an attempt with some sh*t alternative. The cake will taste cr*p but I think it'd be unfair for me to say "well then you can't make cakes, you should have mixed it better, put more cocoa in or covered in with more sugar..." However it is mixed, if the ingredients isn't there you can't make the cake. You can't keep blaming the chef, you blame the owner/ supplier.

Like Sunny said, fail on a bigger budget. Speaking for myself, I think he's had an absolutely impossible task. We don't know all the ins and outs of the finances and I may be wrong but I have never heard of a manager turning down investment. His bigger purchases have been at least relatively successful. I would be happy for him to be given til at least Xmas with investment. But if Lerner (or the level of investment) stays as it is then I don't think it'll matter who is in charge, next year will be the same. I am not rose-tinted, there have been mistakes, bad signings but I think these get highlighted more when on a shoestring. Someone please tell me who McLeish, Houllier or even MON bought for UNDER £3m that were better than what we currently have. You can go back as far as Gregory and O'Leary if you want. There might be the odd one or two players but Lambert has had to make a team of these purchases. When given money he has bought better players and some of his bargain buys have been ok. He can only fail with this investment. He, or any other manager, deserves a chance with funds to compete.

It was tedious many months ago, yet the same points (from both sides tbf) continue to be made. On the budget he's had it would be almost impossible (save for extreme luck) to finish much above top of the bottom half - maybe mid table. That has to be acknowledged a little. But I think he's had enough time and budget to have moved us away from the relegation quagmire. I agree to some extent with that, however I believe he would have improved us with a fit all season Benteke (he's probably only played a third of it fully fit) and a fit Okore. When you're working with such tight margins, the impact of losses to key players is much more significant. I still don't think we would have got higher than 11th with this squad. Mistakes have been made, all managers do, but I would be happy for him to be given some time with more budget. I think getting League One players from around the world to survive in this division is almost a modicum of success - not acceptable but for me the fault is so much due to Lerner's lack of investment that I can't yet lay the blame at Lambert. He's an easy target as we're useless and he's actually at Villa Park every week. We're just shooting the messenger.

In any profession, if you are given crap resources you try to cut corners, take chances and make the best of what you have. 99% of the time you will still produce a sh*t product. Ok, let's sack Lambert. He hasn't been able to make a cake out of mud. And I'll see you all back here in another two years when the next new name can't produce a miracle either. In fact, based on what others have said, we need to automatically reject the next new manager as he should have the knowledge and self-respect to recognise you can't make a Premiership team with a handful of £3m and youth players. If he accepts the job he is automatically a useless manager who is just here as a yes man. To me, he's an easy target. The players are sh*t, the manager is sh*t, the chairman is sh*t. Which one of those makes the biggest difference on the pitch - the players; stupid Lambert refused Lerner offering him £10m for a player and said "no thank you, I have a cunning plan...". The chef will only ever make crap food with poor ingredients.

Actually I can put it a very simple way; the question is not who is the best manager for us, it's who is the best manager for us in our situation? And what do you want our situation to be? People have banded around names like Bruce and Pulis who possibly have a better record with cheap buys and surviving on a shoe string. Ok, get them. Accept we are a team fighting for survival. Would you want these managers if aiming for top 6? Or we go likes of Martinez. He gets poorly funded teams relegated despite being well thought of. But at least that shows ambition hey... Or we go managerless, if you're a crap manager we accept we will forever be crap or you can't get a manager to take us on. Lambert, to me, is that middle ground. He's probably not a top manager but he has more potential than Bruce/Pulis. And I don't for one second think he chose to bomb out all top earners and I don't think he's refused to spend more money on better quality, no manager does that. He's made calls on players in our range, normally lower league. Lots haven't worked, others have but the quality is always going to be poorer than we want. I think we might have made small progress this year with more luck injury wise. Not huge, but some. And how do you explain a collapse second half of the season? I don't know, but i dont want to be a fan/ team that jumps on a manager because of a bad run. Too many mitigating circumstances for me. I said i wasnt Pro-Lambert but the more I look at the hand he's been dealt the more I have extreme sympathy for him. Or he could be the 'big man' and just walk away because it's impossible. Great for him, not so great for us. See MON....

One more point. According to transferlegue.com the players we have bought for under £3m in the last TEN years (before Lambert and under £3m as that seems to be the total he's given for most purchases) are as follows; Enda Stevens, Habib Beye, Brad Friedel, Wayne Routledge, Shaun Maloney, Kevin Phillips, Djemba-Djemba, Gavin McCann and Thomas Sorenson. There are a few undisclosed that might have featured but not sure. I think that almost makes its own point. Hardly a strong first XI that'd make! Throw in a few youth academy players with that too and I think it's easy to see why we are a team fighting relegation yearly. Note the signing of players such as Knight, Harewood, Shorey and Makoun all cost more than our current lot. Even respected 'average' players cost in region of £5-7m years ago - see Reo-Coker, Dunne, Collins even Petrov. We don't even take mid range players anymore. And we pay them less too. Sorry, for me Lambert is the smallest part of the problem and seeing what he did at Norwich and what he has sometimes done with Villa with the resources available I think it'd be fine if he was given another season with investment. He's made mistakes, every manager does but the hand he's been dealt can not be overlooked however bad the results are. Without resources in your work place you'd do a sh*t job too but would it be your fault? He can hardly moan in public, he can hardly lambast his players and he's got to put spin on everything but the deck is so stacked against him I genuinely don't see anyone who would have done much better. It's not acceptable but I see at least 90% of the blame being Lerner's.

My point is perhaps simpler than my earlier 'essay'. This team is awful, the majority of the players are substandard, it's some of the worst football ever played at Villa Park and we've broken loads of awful records. All almost undisputable facts. Is Lambert responsible? Yes, but it's the amount of responsibility you assign. For me it's way less than Lerner and sufficient enough to give him the benefit of the doubt if a new owner arrives. If Lerner stays we're f*cked with Lambert or Guardiola in charge. Lambert's pricer buys have been Benteke (£7m), Vlaar (£3m), Kozak (£7m), Okore (£4m) and Bacuna (£3m) of which two are success, two are seriously injured and the final one is at worst mixed. All his other signings have been cheap punts, successful with likes of Westwood or disasters in shape of Tonev. No, our position isn't OK, but it's too short sighted to blame it all on Lambert. We used to have likes of Young and Milner but they left and we got NZogbia and Bent, then they were bombed out and we could get likes of Westwood and Benteke, then Benteke gets injured... Keep taking away the quality and you end up down the wrong end of the table REGARDLESS of manager. These players last year arguably over performed (see Lowton POTS to today, Weimann and even Benteke) and think we nearly all agree that Luna was/is better than Bennett and Betrand better than both of them. Lambert is responsible for that too. I really am not Pro-Lambert or looking for positives but I genuinely can not see how any other manager would have done much better. Lerner's famous statement even highlights these constraints. This squad has been stripped from top to bottom; our first team the other day with Guzan, Baker, Clark, Delph, Albrighton and Gabby were all here with MON when we were 6th but not playing because we had better players. We have now sold these players and not replaced them so worse players are now in the first XI. The players do seem to put in effort, they do seem to care they're simply just not good enough. Lambert is at fault to some degree, he has made mistakes, but not enough for me to not see WHY he's made those mistakes - lack of investment. I think few would argue that another manager could get THIS bunch playing better so it's about buying better quality and another seven £2m buys aren't going to do that in the best league in the world. It really is as simple as that.

I am not in the Pro-Lambert camp at all BUT I'm still not sure what we are expecting of him. The constraints, well talked about as they are, have got to to be the main focus. It's all well talking about total transfer fees but they are only half of the story; you both have to consider how many players were bought (replacing departures) and how much their salaries are. Yes, we have bought a lot of lower league players, but was that choice on Lambert's part or necessity? Some have been disasters and others not too bad, they're not going to be world beaters though. The likes of Lowton and Westwood have, at times, been very good acquisitions, especially for the initial outlay and considering their wages are probably lower than most players in the division. If you look at his bigger spends, Benteke (although personally I think he'll be a one-season wonder) has been an obvious success and Vlaar/ Okore have looked very solid. Can't think of a manager who has 100% success in the transfer market. In fact, I can't think of one of our last managers to have a 'good' transfer record, there will always be mistakes from Collymore to Balaban to Unsworth and Bennett! Lambert has made mistakes, a fair few, but are these not highlighted more by the lack of funds/quality in the squad? Make tactical errors when you're 4th-10th and you may lose games you shouldn't. Do that when you have no back up, no quality and the consequences are greater. I can't think of a team or managers who have bought (inc wages) significantly better than we have for the same cost. Vs Swansea for example: Villa: Guzan (Free/mid wages) Baker, Clark, Albrighton, Weimann (Youth/mid wages) Delph, Gabby (higher wages) Vlaar (£3m/ mid wages) Bacuna (£2m/mid wages) El Ahmadi (£2m/ mid wages) and Betrand (loan) Rough team cost around £7m (or £13m with Delph) and now low/ mid range wages Swansea: Vorm (£1.5m/low wages) Amat (£2.5m/ low wages) Williams and Davies (Youth/ Low wages) Rangel and Britton (tiny/ low wages) Britton Shelvey (£5m/ high wages) Hernandez (£5.5m/ mid wages) Routledge (£2m/ high wages) Bony (£12m/ high wages) and then Guzman on loan. Rough team cost £28.5m with similarish (as much as you can guess) wages for the match squad overall. I really am not Pro-Lambert but I think it's very easy to say "we could have had x" for this amount or "look at y who bought him for pennies". You need to compare one team/manager with ONE other, we can all cherry pick and find bits of other squads that are cheaper, better value etc. Lambert has not been great or awful, probably very mid range with his purchases but we are in a very different market to most teams at the moment. Tactics have sometimes been suspect, certain players are favoured for reasons none of us can fathom but nearly every manager does that - we've had years of the likes of Heskey playing (everybody groaned) or Knight being signed or managers bringing washed up players from former clubs with them. It's the way of football. Lambert is average from what we can tell so far. If he goes, he goes but I'm more than happy to see him stay. No manager is going to do any better with us until there is more investment. I'm sorry but it seems so obvious to me that people are falling time and time again for the manager as the scapegoat route: Since MON and investment we've had McLeish, Houllier and Lambert and none of them have been able to do much without investment - our biggest change in fortunes came about when we bought Bent - investment. Who could do a significantly better job than Lambert really? Look at Martinez, everyone raves about how good he is, yet Wigan went down due to investment! Money isn't the be all and end all but it is the most significant aspect of success unfortunately. You can make mistakes when you check £50m at Torres but you can't afford the same luxury when you gamble £2m on Luna. Progress? More tricky. Okore and Betrand seem to be an improvement on what we have. But the loss of Okore and Benteke have seen us slip back. Last season we were luckier with injuries, this season not so much. I think if we'd kept Okore fit and Benteke fit we might have been 10th-12th, a small improvement. But when you're so near the bottom then significant injuries are bound to have a greater impact. For me, Lambert has done an OK job in what have been ridiculous constraints. He said some of the figures I've quoted as transfers fees were doubled in the press! He's infuriated me, he's bought some utter dross and some of his tactics and press conferences have left me fuming. He's like every other manager I can remember, he just has to buy players around the £2m mark instead of £8m mark. I don't see any significantly better managers out there and changing the manager alone will do absolutely nothing to change our yearly struggles.

What it does seem to mean is, almost regardless of other results, we won't KNOW we're safe until last game ofthe season so it could be a horrible last day...