Awol

If only they'd joined the Euro.

Not if we leave it doesn't. Not sure exactly what you mean with reference to Cameron's position?

Snipped from the Condem Gov thread: Seems to be a split response: Southern Europe saying 'hell no', northern Europe saying 'maybe they've got a point here...', the French saying "we ate u anglo-saxon peeeigs". The important part of that is the net contributors (excluding Les Bleus)to the EU are the one's who seem to be more open to this. Maybe that's because Cameron is saying he thinks the choice to make these changes should be opened up to all EU members and a few of the more dynamic nations might be thinking 'yes, we quite fancy a bit of that too'.

that was the image in my head after reading LL's post. It would undoubtedly be a complex process and I don't think anyone has the answers yet as to how the various scenarios play out, but in principle it seems unlikely that either the UK or any of the remaining EU nations (excluding the French) would be keen to poison the well, as it were. Another factor that will undoubtedly shape this debate is the lifting of restrictions on movement within the EU for Bulgarians and Romanians in Jan next year. If as some predict the UK has another massive influx of unskilled labour from eastern Europe as a result then it's hard to imagine that not having a significant affect on this debate. Worth noting that the freedom of movement inside the EU is part of the single market agreement and not something Cameron is looking to reform.

As I understand it, Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty is invoked and the EU is then legally bound to negotiate a free trade agreement with the departing nation. How it affects the EU nationals residing in Stalag Luft III at the point of UK departure I don't know, but logic would dictate that maasive repatriations are not going to happen, just as I wouldnt expect Brit's to be forced the other way on mass. The scare stories that get deployed around this debate over time are going to be horrendous though.

You make it sound like leaving the EU means the country becoming Colditz! I don't think there is any chance of people who are here and settled being hoiked out by men in jackboots, although that's probably the kind of image quite a lot of people would try to portray in the run up to a vote.

First of all Bicks is right, there won't be a Tory majority in 2015 unless they eventually find Maddie tied up under Miliband's bed. In that sense it's a bluff from Cameron to a) buy off his own party and unite them behind him, and try to stem the bleeding of support from the Tory base to UKIP. However I think it will be an issue used so effectively against Labour who currently oppose giving the public a say that they will change their position before 2015 and make a referendum part of their election manifesto too. Therefore I think the next Parliament will see a referendum, regardless of who gets in. As to 'in or out' it would depend entirely on what the theoretical negotiation could deliver. If it was the relationship we have today versus leaving then I'd vote for out, but Cameron's intent to enshrine the principle that the UK will not participate in "ever closer union" is a game changer for me, if he can get it. That would exclude us from the on going drive towards a Federal super-state that the EU institutions openly support, thus mantaining UK as a soveriegn state within a looser assocation of democratic nations. My personal beef with the EU has always been based on democracy, i.e. the elctorate must be able to sack the people who make our laws and replace them if we so choose. The EU has removed that ability (approx 70% of our laws are made in Europe, beyond accountability to the people) which is something I cannot accept as being right or democratic, in fact it's a dangerous departure from common sense, imo. The EU undoubtedly delivers benefits but equally they come at a cost so the analysis currently being undertaken across government will form a good starting point to begin informing the public on the issues. Hopefully that debate will focus on substance and filter out the shrill background noise from both sides. Fat chance of that happening but we'll see. Read the other day that the CIA covertly poured millions into the "yes" campaign in 1975, so expect the same sort of underhand tactics again this time round - the BBC which gets a nice fat EU grant will no doubt also be blowing the trumpet for Brussels. It's interesting that many of the great and the good who say that an EU exit would leave the UK a baron and salted wasteland are exactly the same people who said the sky would fall and virgins would combust if we didn't join the Euro. Why anyone should now believe a word of what they say given their track record of incompetent analysis is highly debatable. Whichever way it goes (and I think we all know Cameron isn't making a principled decision to empower the electorate here) it is absolutely right to give the public a say and confer democratic legitimacy on the future relationship of the UK with Europe. In 1975 people were told they were joining a Common Market, not a Political Union. Heath (nonce?) later admitted he'd lied his chops off quite deliberately about what people were voting on back then. If we are going to become part of a Federal European Union (and if we stay in without any change in the relationship then that is the eventual destination) then the decision is for the British people to make, and them alone.

The government can't 'legislate people richer' other than having the most cosmetic impacts through *cough* entitlements. That might put an extra fiver a week through Tesco's but won't see people buying widescreens or Nikon cameras. I'm interested though, apart from Peter's compulsory purchasing of high streets scheme, what should the government be doing to maintain the retail sector when disposable income levels are, on average, on par with those of a Church mouse whose wife has run off with all the cheese?

Well done, I didn't think anything could make me laugh after that shambles but you've nailed it!

Where do we go from this? (other than the Championship) Beyond pitiful.

Jesus, this is **** painful to watch..there are no excuses for this.

We've gone to **** pieces here, where's the team we had on 1st half?

Shiiiiiiiiiiit.

Bannan's playing like a big bag of crusty cum.

Good run Bennett. More please.

Come on lads, you can do this!

Phil Dowd is a word removed.

Not exactly Jason Bourne, was he? He was basically 'assaulted' by the cast from Last of the Summer Wine. Under the circumstances he appeared to get off very lightly indeed.

Bannan really is shit.

Lovely. FFS.

Nothing to do with renting DVD's in the internet age being a pretty poor business model, it's obviously the government's fault.... That's like blaming government's past for the motor car putting Blacksmith's out of work.

A more 'hands on' way of cutting the deficit?

Yes, that would be a nonsensical way of interpreting what I wrote. The implied point that Snowy grasped easily enough was the differing performance between companies that are focused on different geographical markets. The EU market is still shrinking but the Asian markets are (relative to the EU) booming and will continue on that trajectory for the foreseeable future. Perhaps if UK firms were able to sell tariff free into markets outside of the EU block then those companies could do even better? Maybe even new businesses may start to service that demand? We could call it Capitalism I understand this is heresy against the hallowed EU and somehow a 'little Englander' approach (i.e. the global trade policies advocated by UKIP) but it does make an awful lot of sense if the main aim is to improve the economic prospects of the UK. The contrast made between Honda and JLR at the moment was simply a useful metaphor for that broader picture. I agree that it's the government's job to take the big political decisions that will help the economy recover. It is not the government's role to save the jobs of people working for businesses that do not deliver, however brutal that reality is for people on the ground. You don't have to like that, glorify it or revel in it to understand it. Employment in the private sector is ultimately driven by consumer demand and currently the economic structures we are tied into (or more accurately tied down by) prevent UK firms from fully exploiting the greater opportunities beyond the EU. The government's job should be to position the UK economy to capture that demand to the best of their ability, but neither red or blue have the balls to do so. 'We'(and seemingly 'they' too) are then surprised when a tweak here and a prod there fails to make any significant difference.

^*like*

And 800 created at JLR. Honda UK manufacturing for the EU market which has collapsed, JLR for the Asian market which is booming, Jessops done in for being rubbish.