Mazrim

I think both managers are highly rated by villa fans. You're right about the points but more games. So he inherited a squad who achieved lowest points in a 38 game season And left a squad that achieved highest points total in a 38 game season. I don't think points total should be ignored. So he inherited a squad that was seriously under-invested, that already included the two best players of his coming reign. He went on a spending spree unavailable to any Villa manager previously or since. And a he left an over-age, overpaid, overrated and entirely underwhelming (in terms of talent) squad. What I don't get is, if we are to believe that O'Neill did such a marvellous job, where is the credit to Randy Lerner for facilitating this? And whether he did a good job or not, the football, particularly at VP, was largely shit. Correct. I'd let O'Neills many failings go if he wasn't so unjustifiably lionised by some fans and media. I found his remarks about the squad he left particularly galling. After squandering such a large amount of money and getting very little value in most of his dealings I cant believe he has the cheek to claim he left such a wealth of talent when he left a huge financial **** (which is largely Randys fault for buying into the myth so readily). He is a better self-publicist than manager, that's for sure. He certainly has no need of Max Clifford or whoever. He is Teflon incarnate: nothing sticks to him. And yes, the football at VP was largely shit.

Did he? I assume this is a set up for a great piece of point scoring from yourself but i'll bite. Yes, i believe his last season was our highest premiership points total. It wasn't, in the first Premier League, Big Ron's Villa finished with 10 more points (although with more games. granted) and also made the best team O'Neill could muster look amateur by comparison in my opinion as did Brian Little's team and both managers won something and deserve more credibility. In any case, points totals are relative to the oppostion and quality of the league in any given season. League finishes are far more indicative of quality.

Did he?

What absolute bollocks. He won - NOTHING. He's not even in or anywhere near the top 10 Villa managers since the war.

We controlled it early on, scored, played o.k for the rest of the half but sat back too much. The second half was too negative but a great effort. Had we went looking for more goals and lost he would have been panned but he was perhaps too restrained as Liverpool were looking vulnerable until we retreated. I'm no fan of McLeish but we're a struggling side hammered with injuries and we got a draw at Anfield, which no matter what the circumstances is usually a pretty good effort. I'm not sure we can be anything but pleased with it. Celebrating it as some mighty acheivement is not worthy of Aston Villa though.

Oh dear, it seems some sensitive souls are getting a bit Butthurt over criticism of O'Neill. Bless. Phil, you seem to be very confused. I haven't said anywhere that MON tried to sign Bent, that is after all one of the things I'm criticising him for, yes? **** me, if I was trying to "win" a debate with you and some of the other genius types on this thread it wouldn't be much of a challenge. I'm only stating a case for why MON should not get away scott free in the blame game. He knew how to buy a defence? LOL, he had enough **** practice buying defenders, it was awfully nice of him getting it right for a few months (at the expense of buying the striker we needed and sacrificing attacking play). Have you even asked yourself why he had to buy an entire defence twice in two years? Yes, the last one he put together had half a good season but also included a centre half at right back who was terrible going forward and lets not forget half of the money he spent (wasted) was on defenders because he had to keep replacing the mistakes he made. Beye hardly ever played and he decided to forget to speak to Young and Shorey. There's £12m worth of full backs on £130,000 p/w that sat on their arse. Never mind letting our best young defender go and paying £10m for a defender who we let go for **** all and went straight into the Dogshit's reserves. Oh yes, very impressive. Lets look at the transfer genius of St Martin the blameless, blessing and peace be upon him. I'll let the court view this and decide how good or bad it was. Personally it's lack of imagination, long term vision and value for money makes me want to puke. 2006-07 In Stiliyan Petrov (Celtic, £6.5m) Didier Agathe (Celtic, Free) Chris Sutton (Celtic, Free) John Carew (Lyon, Swap) Ashley Young (Watford, £9.65m) Shaun Maloney (Celtic, £1.1m) Out Kevin Phillips (WBA, £700k) Matthieu Berson (Levante, £1m) Ulises De La Cruz (Reading, Free) Peter Whittingham (Cardiff City, £250k) Eric Djemba Djemba (Quatar, Free) Milan Baros (Lyon, Swap) Mark Delaney (Retired) Juan Pablo Angel (New York Red Bulls, Free) Spent: £17.25m Brought in: £1.95m Net spend: £15.3m 2007-08 In Moustapha Salifou (FC Wil, Undisc) Zat Knight (Fulham, £3.5m) Harry Forrester (Watford, £250 000) Eric Lichaj (Unattached, Free) Marlon Harewood (West Ham, £3.5m) Nigel Reo-Coker (West Ham £8.5m) Wayne Routledge (Tottenham, £1.5m) Out Liam Ridgewell (Birmingham, £2m) Jlloyd Samuel (Bolton, Free) Lee Hendrie (Sheffield United, Free) Chris Sutton Retired Didier Agathe released Steven Davis (Fulham, £4m) Aaron Hughes (Fulham, £1m) Gavin McCann (Bolton, £1m) Gary Cahill (Bolton, £4.5m) Robert Olejnik (Falkirk, Free) Spent: £17.25m Brought in: £12.5m Net spend: £4.75m 2008-09 In Curtis Davies (WBA, £10m) Steve Sidwell (Chelsea £5.5m) Brad Friedel (Blackburn, £2.5m) Brad Guzan (Chivas US, £1m) Nicky Shorey (Reading, £4m) Luke Young (Middlesbrough, £5m) Carlos Cuellar (Rangers £7.8m) James Milner (Newcastle, £12m) Arsenio Halfhuid (Excelsior, nominal) Emile Heskey (Wigan £3.5m) Out Luke Moore (West Brom - £3.5m) Olof Mellberg (Juventus - free) Patrick Berger (Sparta Prague - free) Thomas Sorensen (released) Shaun Maloney (Celtic, £1m) Wayne Routledge (undisclosed) Spent: £51.3m Brought in: £4.5m Net spend: £46.8m 2009-10 In Stewart "Broken Leg" Downing (Middlesbrough £10m) Fabian Delph (Leeds United £6m) Habib Beye (£2m) Andy Marshall (free agent) Stephen Warnock (£6m) James Collins (West Ham United, £5m) Richard Dunne (Manchester City, £6m) Out: Gareth Barry (Manchester City, £12m) Stuart Taylor (Manchester City, free) Zat Knight (Bolton £4.5m) Martin Laursen (retired) Craig Gardner (Birmingham, £3.5m) Spent: £35million Brought in: £20million Net spend: £15million £82m net spend plus all the wages those players were on. What would a better manager have done with that? Maybe one who actually had scouts. What legacy would they have left if one day they **** off just before the start of a season with all their staff? By the way, even though I couldn't stand O'Leary he still managed to equal MONs best league finish with a fraction of the resources. You can dress it up however you like, that's a 24k fact. And his own players hated him at the end, true. I recall a few knives coming out for MON too, who ignored and never spoke to players he had recently bought at great expense because he's a childish petulant man. Then there was the resentment of anybody outside the usual starting XI because they were never used and awful training routines etc. It's all out there, if you want to look. Let's not pretend he was beloved of all the players because he wasn't. Of course, I may as well piss into the wind than expect any of this to sink in because its all Randy's fault and I am an agent of the General and other fantastic reasoning. He probably had MON sign all those average players on huge contracts at gunpoint and had MONs scouts drowned in the channel I suppose. Anyway, I have nothing more to add and wouldn't waste my time anyway. I've presented the facts as I understand them and that's that. Thanks to those people who liked and or agreed with what I had to say especially as it seemed to annoy Big Job.

It's definitely a mix of Randy and MON. I just dont want that little shit getting away with murder like he does with his imbecile mates on MotD or whatever.

I dont recall anybody blaming O'Neill for how we played against Arsenal. Would you like to have your own argument?

Sorry briny but I'm affraid it's very relevant. Firstly, because of how we are where we are now, and I agree about your points regarding lack of long term plans etc and it's where I'm most critical of Lerner. Despite what some clowns may think, I'm very critical of him. Secondly, because I'm sick of hearing about how O'Neill did great and it's all Lerner's fault, which is bollocks when you consider whatever plan Randy did have was based around backing MON to the hilt. Ultimately it is Randy's fault because he should have stopped his spending to cover his own mistakes long before. As soon as the well went dry and some accounting had to be done, MON didn't fancy it. What a hero. Now, shall we go back to how many different ways we can say McLeish is shit? What needs to be done is quite simple. McLeish needs to go and soon and get a young manager in with some idea about how the game should be played, who doesn't pull his pants down for so called "elite" clubs and also appoint a director (or two) with some sort of footballing nous. My bet would be Brendan Rodgers. But I fear we're stuck with McLeish for the moment. Hopefully Randy will see sense and cut his losses though before it's too late or any money is given to McLeish to spend. If I was Lerner I would also be looking for buyers and I hope that's happening.

As of January 09 there were roughly 7 billion better strikers than Emile Heskey. I agree, I dont rate Heskey and think he is the one of the worst players to ever pull on the famous claret and blue shirt. But who was available, would of come and wouldnt of cost more than 20 million at the time. Well, there are loads of strikers out there. You have to go and make them available by bidding for them dont you? But as an example, he should have bought Bent in the summer.

As of January 09 there were roughly 7 billion better strikers than Emile Heskey.

Yes, I criticise Randy and yet I'm doing the General's PR work and I'm defending Randy. Like I said, better ignored.

I'd ask what the hell the General has to do with any of my posts but to be honest Big John, I think your posts are best ignored.

He's good at motivating average players for a while whilst there's some momentum... and that's about it. The football under him was unsophisticated but exciting in its own way and depended entirely on speedy counter attack, which is fine but when we needed to break teams down we couldn't do it because we only had one way of playing. The same will happen at Sunderland. When the gloss wears off and the momentum stops they will be looking around for ideas and he wont have any apart from buying average players who hang around for years like a bad smell, costing an absolute fortune. Such is the legacy of Martin O'Neill. What else do we have? What did he build with all that money? Absolutely **** all. Heskey, for instance, when he hangs up his rollerblades, will have cost this great club the best part of TWENTY MILLION POUNDS!

If you believe there were lots of managers that could come in and do better than O'Neill then you are deluded. Name me one manager who you guarantee would have done better, that is a realistic appointment, and I will back down but personally I think when you take charge of a club that is lightyears away from the established top four and you get as close as he did you can be pretty happy with what you've done but regret never having the chance to complete the job. He signed bad players but he signed some bloody good ones too. And as I've mentioned before, the January transfer window is not an easy time to sign a striker. Look how much we had to pay for Bent? And that was a panic buy! O'Neill desperately wanted a striker but chose to bolster his defence and midfield first, sounds a sensible approach to me. It's not like our strikers have been getting much service this season is it! You can also bang on about the squad left by O'Neill, has it not occurred to you that he would have continued to make changes? He was in charge for less than five years, if you expected more success in that time, bearing in mind what a mess we'd been in under O'Leary then you are clueless. You write that shit and call me clueless? He could have bought Bent but allowed him to go to **** Sunderland cheaply because he wouldn't know a striker if he fell over one. You say he sensibly built from the back? He replaced the entire defence he himself had just bought with money that could have been used elsewhere on, oh let's say, the striker we desperately needed? January is only a bad time to buy if you're Martin O'Neill and only shop in the UK. Or if, for an example, you haven't bought properly in the summer because you've just bought an entire defence again (at the last minute of course), plus the odd shite midfielder and forgot to buy that striker we desperately needed, so wait until January and still get it massively wrong. Not a **** clue. I personally couldnt care less if you "back down" or not but it's pointless talking managers because you would only say "we wouldn't have got him" or whatever. But I do not agree, nor will I ever, that Martin O'Neill was the best man for the job or the most capable. If you'd gone to a lot of the best managers with a billionaire ready to plough tens of millions into a project you honestly think they wouldn't be interested? But Randy had to work with him as he'd just been appointed (no doubt with Randys blessing). And please spare me from the great squad buiding work of O'Neill from the dark days of O'Leary (who was a clearing in the woods). As if splashing millions on players is a difficult task. He still inherited some of the best players from O'Leary and managed to do no better in the league (6th). Big **** deal. The truth is that due to his lack of foresight in buying a defence (he bought Shorey on Sidwell's advice for **** sake!), his inability to buy a striker even though lavished with a huge transfer budget and his uk only myopia in the transfer meant that, unfortuantely for us, he was not the ideal person to be spending the money we had. Money that if better used, would have put us in a very strong position then and now. Yes, he bought some good players. It's not really that hard. Good players tend to be quite obviously good. But he also: - Spent £5m on the hopeless Sidwell and gave him £50k p/w - Heskey for £4m on £60k p/w :shock: - Beye on 40k p/w - Bought Marlon Harewood - Bought Shorey on a recommendation of a player he hardly used. - Sold Cahill and bought Davies at twice the price. - Bought a winger with a broken leg when we needed a striker. - Left everything to the last minute. - Could rarely win a game after February. This is really the best we could have hoped for at Aston Villa? I think my expectations are higher.

6th was the very best we could have hoped for despite being in the top 4 for large amounts of certain seasons? What a load of bollocks. Randy is to blame for a lot of things but O'Neill is to blame for not spending the money well and not at the right time on the right people. For a while only Man City spent more than we did and 6th was the best we could have hoped for? My arse. If only we hadn't had to replace an entire defence for the third time in as many seasons or if we'd bought actual goalscorers to help us win a game after February (for a change). We would have been comfortably in the top 4 we were that far ahead of Arsenal (and Everton who also, tediously, predictably caught us twice). Sorry, if you think O'Neill maximised our potential and did as well as we could possibly have done you are deluded. He had backing most managers would kill for and when all is said and done, made a bollocks of it. But yes, lets forget that and demonise the man who backed him with all those resources and not the man who squandered them. That makes sense. Randy should rightly get bollocked for hiring McLeish, for not appointing more footballing expertise to the board, for giving O'Neill too much dictatorial control over finances and many other things I'm sure. But from 2006 - 2009 he was lionised by media and fans as something like the perfect owner. A man who let his manager have the money and freedom to operate with a free hand. I hope he sells up because I think his time has gone with Villa now. The best chance he and we had of success pissed away because he backed the wrong horse. He needed (and still needs) better advice. Alas, it's done. That's all I've got to say. I've already wasted more time discussing Pubehead than he's worth. It just really grates to see Villa fans defend him when he's pretty much shafted us.

In essence, yes. In that critical period when we were flying high and needed that player to keep the momentum going, Arsene Wenger bought Arshavin and we bought... Emile Heskey. That's what seperates top managers and... Martin O'Neills. In truth though, it didn't take a genius to realise Heskey wasn't the player we needed.

How do you know that? Was he asked? I only used him as an example anyway. Somebody of that calibre, given the money Randy was about to spend, may have found it very tempting indeed. No he wasn't. He wasted most of Randy's money on shit players on massive contracts so how can he possibly have been the best man for the job? **** Martin O'Neill.

6..........6 6. The Number of McLeish! For all you Iron Maiden fans.

Correct. That tosser deserves very little loyalty from fans he showed absolutely zero loyalty to. As soon as the golden goose threatened to stop laying eggs for him to do with as he pleased, largely on players not good enough that we're still stuck with or have only recently left, costing us a fortune for little or no return, he scarpered. Now his media mates are covering for his shortcomings and it's being swallowed up again like he's some sort of miracle worker. The truth is had Randy backed a better manager, like a Hiddink for instance, we'd probably have been in the top 4 a few times and far better off. I dont want McLeish anywhere near this club and that goes for Woody Allen too.

If Actoh Bunny are buying a Russian striker it will most likely be Pogrebnyak.

Jesus Christ AVFCAM. You're not going to worry any Mastermind contestants are you? Dutch is apparently an ambugious feeling rather than a language that can be accurately translated and with less points we'd be in the bottom three...

They're young lads having a laugh. As long as it doesn't interfere with their game I couldn't care less.

Plenty of our US followers were doing similar about young Bradley last season but he just wasn't good enough. I'm not saying the same will happen with Holman, I've no idea about him as a player all I'm saying is that just because a few Aussie fans are raving about him it doesn't really mean a great deal. Bradley didn't hit the ground running but he wasn't given anything like the chance to prove himself here either and is currently doing very well. I don't see much raving about Holman either, just that his main assets are energy, stamina and a good work ethic along with being tidy and creating chances. That's enough for encouragement at least.

Jealousy is an awful thing to have didn't you learn to leave all that bad feeling at home ? Anyway were talking about Villa/BCFC who is talking about BCFC except you Thing is it's like Barca and Real Madrid us as fans always argue who is the biggest and i guess its the same with Villa and BCFC who is the biggest ? Because right now i,d say BCFC and Villa are about equal. Get to ****, Bluenose. You're about equal to Coventry, maybe not even that. Back to Trollschool. You have much to learn.