Kingfisher

As I said it's a phone app. It was all about the finish, but still he gets an assist at Liverpool. That's equal second on assists with Westwood, behind Benteke.

No my entire argument was about his general technical ability (to which passing is only one aspect) is underestimated. I found stats on his passing to show that his passing is actually quite good. The fact Fourfourtwo isn't on your approved list isn't my problem. But here's more stats from Fourfourtwo... V Stoke Most attacking third passes - Holman Most chances created - Holman Most take-ons - Holman

My entire argument was not based on his passing, but overall technical ability. Again, are you reading my posts?

Made them up? Are you not reading my posts? Do you know what collate means? I was originally comparing Holman to Ireland. He has been all Ireland was billed as but failed as. Adventurous, attacking, good technique, long shots etc. I collated his passing stats from individual matches (I might be wrong) to be equal to Gabby and better than Weimann. I think it's fair to compare his passing stats to the other players in his position. However it's only one small aspect of the argument and the higher up the pitch you go, and the more adventurous your passing is, the lower your % will be anyway. The crutch of my argument centred on the fact that I think people are underestimating Holman as a player without great technical merit. I think with each passing (no pun intended) game he is showing that he is a player with great technique and awareness and not just a hard worker. I hope Holman keeps on playing well, knocking in thunderbolts and continues to make the people who've tried to box him as just a 'hard worker' feel a bit silly.

Not created, collated. duh. Well you're not convinced, but I think he does and I think his level of technical ability in general is underestimated.

From the phone app. I had to calculate them myself, so they might be a bit out. I had Gabby 75% Holman 75% and Weimann 71%, (all play the same role). However I think, as a poster said before though, he does always look for the killer pass so his % might be a bit lower and give a false impression if indeed my calculations are wrong.

My stats were different, I got them from fourfourtwo where Holman has better passing stats to the ones you have found. Great technique for the goal again yesterday.

Where did those stats come from? The ones I have are different.

That is unbelievably petty, but hey ho. I'll attempt to bring the thread back on topic, so you think Holman can't pass very well? His passing accuracy stats indicate a different story. Ps I hope you're happy with 'can't pass very well' and it is not too strong a description, I don't want to offend.

Is Holman good at the technical side of his game? I think so, I think demonstrably so. I can pick out a few examples of when his technique has been excellent, such as the goal. Others think not, to varying degrees. I think that is unfair to varying degrees. This is the argument. You have a problem with my use of the word castigate, but the strength of the word was obviously mitigated by what has been said in the rest of my post(s), that is obvious, and I've explained that. What more can I say to appease you? I've no problem with debate, go right ahead I like a good debate, but it's courteous to read the peoples posts that you are debating with. But if you follow an irrelevant line of argument to the points being made it's frustrating for everybody. Yes I lol'd is loling uncool or something?

Not just this season. He's young but worryingly the same mistakes continue to crop up and there seems to be no improvement.

I'm sorry I'm not sure what your point is any more, I don't know WTF you're on about now. Are you even reading my posts lol.

IMHO of course.

It was explained in a later post what I think. But you're missing the point to pick up on one word. I agree with most of that, but I think he's good at picking a pass. As I said people who unfairly criticise, castigate, lambaste (whatever word you think suits, it's not important here) his technique in passing, control and shooting are incorrect to do so.

Another miss-judgement at QPR for their goal, he let Mackie get away from him.

No, my opinion is not based on the last game, but every game I've seen of him, I just don't rate him. But I like your point about the goal, watching it again you're quite right, it's not Herd it's Clark, he **** up yet AGAIN. How many points does he cost us?

If you think castigated is too strong, well whatever, I'm not bothered as it's splitting hairs. The main point of disagreement is on the area of criticism rather than the strength of it. I think people are fundamentally wrong to say his technique is bad.

Topless Kate's up the duff. Looks like she'll be eating for one now.

I'm afraid I don't rate this lad.

People are saying exactly that. Which I disagree with.

By castigating I mean people are selling him short. He has good technique not bad technique, his goal, and general shooting support that. His passing is not bad either, and statistically wasn't bad v QPR. He's in the limited hard worker box and people want to keep him there, I think. The same thing is happening with Ireland, technically gifted creative player? Except he hasn't ever created (fact) or looked like creating (IMO) an awful lot since he's been here.

His passing accuracy stat was very good, he gave the ball away a few times in quick succession before he was taken off. I think that, coupled with the unfair 'limited footballer' tag he's not earned means he can't give the ball away once without people castigating him. The truth is, this limited footballer actually has an eye for a pass and a fantastic shot. Ireland on the other hand can get away with doing three years of **** all.

Well as far as I'm concerned he can carry on hitting those terribly executed shots that travel like arrows with pace into the back of the net. If that's bad technique I'll take that all day long.

I'd play Stephen Ireland in attack if anywhere, he's ineffective in midfield.

I've seen plenty, I think his influence in games is quite small. He's just a lot of nothingness playing in CM.