ml1dch Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Javier Saviola! I'm fairly sure that if he does move to England, he'll be joining the long list of illustrious Argentine failures that the Premiership can boast. Just a hunch. Well your "hunch" is very naive as the guy is quality and has proven that on the international stage and in the champions league, and would you mind to name the "long line" of Argentinian failures?, :roll: , Well, without spending hours on Wikipedia I could suggest Veron, Crespo, Mascherano, Tevez, Figueroa, Bassedas, Taricco, Scaloni, Vivas and Sava. Most of whom are as proven at international level as Saviola is. Even the relative successes such as Heinze and Arca are either being kept out of the team by somebody else or wasting away at Middlesbrough. Can you name me any out and out Argentine success stories in the Premier League? I’m not saying he definitely wouldn’t be a success, but nothing is guaranteed in this world. I seem to remember that 99% of the footballing world thought that Tevez and Mascherano would be amazing for West Ham. So my hunch is not ‘naïve’ in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam100 Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 i don't think you can include tevez and mascherano as flops just yet 1 because its there first season 2 they both joined a team in huge controversy with a lot of dressing room unrest and most west ham fans i've spoke to have said tevez has been one of there best players, he hasn't scored many but i think that will come next season if he stays in the premiership. mascherano wasn't really given a fair crack of the whip, and i suspect he was probably scapegoated by management for west hams bad form, but its proved not the case and the team overall has been poor, and since hes been at liverpool hes been pretty decent up to yet. and crespo scored 20 in 33 starts for chelsea, which isn't the worst record i've ever sin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardo Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Look at Baros, he had a constant sulk on him when things didn't go his way.. That sulk then tends to spread throughout the team, and does affect the rest of the team.. You are better off having someone who is constantly alert and willing to lift the team from a bad spell rather than someone who resigns to the fact that they are going to lose!! But Cisse isn't Baros though and it's ridiculous to compare one player to another simply because we've had one who's apparently "sulked", no-one would touch Dicanio with a barge pole and West Ham suffered didn't they?, and Blackburn were right fools to take a chance on Bellamy too i guess?, imo play Cisse in his right position and i wouldn't be surprised if he done a decent job for us, and it's not just about Cisse it's all players, unless the player is a head case we shouldn't be afriad to take a chance and see what happens otherwise we might miss out of some very good players. Yes and all Liverpool fans wanted to get rid of Cisse anyway, so what does that make him, if Baros was liked by alot of them??? Anyway, if we were signing a new striker, I would like to think that we would be aiming higher than a middle of the road striker like Cisse, who is a headless chicken and very inconsistent at best!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villathriller77 Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Ricky Villa was also dissapointing whilst at Spurs. Apart from his salvo at Wem-ber-lee of course. Success stories? Only Ardiles springs to mind. International Quality doesn't always translate to the Premier League and i'm not convinced Saviola would be any different to the numerous failures that the Argies have sent to our shores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 i don't think you can include tevez and mascherano as flops just yet I certainly don't think you can qualify them as huge successes, do you? they both joined a team in huge controversy with a lot of dressing room unrest Of which they were the cause. Maybe through little fault of their own, but they have certainly contributed to the problem. and crespo scored 20 in 33 starts for chelsea, which isn't the worst record i've ever sin Nope, his goalscoring record is fine. But again, through not settling or for whatever reason he has been on permanent loan to Italy since 2004, which will eventually result in a free transfer. Still not one to shout about when talking about how successful Argentinians are in the Premier League I would say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam100 Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Quote: i don't think you can include tevez and mascherano as flops just yet I certainly don't think you can qualify them as huge successes, do you? i would say tevez is closer to success than flop, some of his performances have been excellent, no he hasn't scored goals but for a first season in a team full of low morale and constant struggles hes been a shining light. as with mascherano since hes gone to liverpool hes shown glimpses of why hes so highly rated, and i suspect next season he will further blossom i wouldn't shout about crespo being a success either, but at the same time he wasn't a flop, he came scored goals that was expected of him but just failed to settle well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberVillan Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Javier Saviola! I'm fairly sure that if he does move to England, he'll be joining the long list of illustrious Argentine failures that the Premiership can boast. Just a hunch. Well your "hunch" is very naive as the guy is quality and has proven that on the international stage and in the champions league, and would you mind to name the "long line" of Argentinian failures?, :roll: , Well, without spending hours on Wikipedia I could suggest Veron, Crespo, Mascherano, Tevez, Figueroa, Bassedas, Taricco, Scaloni, Vivas and Sava. Most of whom are as proven at international level as Saviola is. Even the relative successes such as Heinze and Arca are either being kept out of the team by somebody else or wasting away at Middlesbrough. Can you name me any out and out Argentine success stories in the Premier League? I’m not saying he definitely wouldn’t be a success, but nothing is guaranteed in this world. I seem to remember that 99% of the footballing world thought that Tevez and Mascherano would be amazing for West Ham. So my hunch is not ‘naïve’ in any way. Oh i get it, so Argentinians are not allowed a settling in period so that means Tevez and Mascherano (Liverpool don't seem to agree) have already "failed" :roll: , Crespo scoring 16 odd goals in his first season is also a massive flop too i guess?!!, yes some of them have hardly hit hights but it's not a fact that the majority of them have failed it's just simply your opinion, and seeing as you wanna judge the way a player would perform purely on the basis of their nationality and not ability then i would still be inclined to suggest it's naive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Well prove me wrong then. Who are the Argentinians who have shone in the Premier League? And yes, it is my opinion. As I said in my original post. You're very welcome to have a different one, but for the moment it would appear that past history backs up my opinion quite well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jez Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Crespo has, for a player who hardly played was still awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberVillan Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Well prove me wrong then. Who are the Argentinians who have shone in the Premier League? And yes, it is my opinion. As I said in my original post. You're very welcome to have a different one, but for the moment it would appear that past history backs up my opinion quite well. No it doesn't "back up your opinion quite well" because already you have people arguing against it, Crespo wasn't a flop and neither is Tevez and his friend, Veron was a sensation in his first season at Manure too, but again it's silly to second guess how a player would do just because they are the same nationality as players who might not have done well in the premiership, otherwise you might as well say Messi would be crap in the prem too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 23, 2007 Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2007 Can we take the Argentina discussion into off topic please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 otherwise you might as well say Messi would be crap in the prem too. I wouldn't say he would be. I would say he might be. Along the same lines as I said Saviola 'might be'. Along the same lines as any player 'might be'. Crespo, although I agree isn't technically a flop he is certainly not a good argument for why an Argentinan striker would be a sensible purchase. If he were a great success, Chelsea wouldn't have cut their losses on him and had him on loan for three seasons until he can leave on a free transfer. Tevez, depending on where he goes at the end of the season may be remembered one of two ways. He may go follow Mascherano to Liverpool and become a huge success and buck this trend. However, if he goes to Spain/Italy, then he will be remembered as one of the reasons West Ham got relegated. And I'm still waiting even one Argentinian who could be called a huge success in the Premier League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity-Tom Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 FWIW, I think Saviola is a different sort of player who would perform well in the Prem but I think the only example of a player doing well is Crespo. Veron was a huge flop. To describe him as a sensation in his first season is so far from the truth as far as I am concerned. Tevez and Mascherano, the jury is still out but they have hardly performed to the level anticipated. The fact is though that the majority of South American players who come to the Premiership find it incredibly difficult to settle. The only example where there appears to have been no problem is Solano. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 I would say that the likes of Juninho and Gilberto Silva could be added to that list. But as has been said...this is something for Off-Topic rather than here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity-Tom Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 I would say that the likes of Juninho and Gilberto Silva could be added to that list. But as has been said...this is something for Off-Topic rather than here. Agreed actually. Forgot about them! Let's sign Saviola and see what he is like any way. On a free it would be rude not to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldFart Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Cisse - injury prone. Ashton - hasn't played for a year, injury. Great ideas I'm seeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villathriller77 Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Saviola on a free could be an option but where to play him. He's not the elusive 20 goal a season man we are allegedly after, he's not a target man and he's not a winger. Could play him up top with Carew but would he get any more goals than JPA, Moore or Gabby? Ashton? Risky after he's been out all season but could be worth a punt at the right price. No more than 5m for me. Cisse? Not good enough imo. Played out of position when at Liverpool which didn't help his cause but not seen enough from him to suggest he could score 20 a season and that, afterall is what we need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Cisse - injury prone. I'm not sure about injury prone...the only two injuries I can think of were broken legs. Unfortunate yes, but it's not the sort of injury that you get by tripping over the ball. Happened twice and he's come back both times. I would say that injury prone is more the sort of dodgy ankle/knee/hamstring that ALWAYS has complications. See Laursen or Delaney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam100 Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Cisse? Not good enough imo not good enough? bar carew he is miles better than what we have i think hes vastly underrated by people on here, on form hes a very good player and i would take him over bellamy he will probably be sold for quite cheap as well like diouf was, and look how hes turned out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 I think it would be worth taking a punt on Cisse - if the price was right of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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