13 Trillion Pounds hoarded by the "elite"

[CrackpotForeigner]

I take the view that your tradesmen are just the sort of folk who SHOULD be able to get sly cash in hand if there's any justice in the world.

that's kinda double standards though isn't it and suggests more a chip on the shoulder attitude because it's not fair that someone else has more than me (not intended as an insult so please don't take offence)

Might be chip-on-shoulder if I were the tradesman, or if the tradesman was the one who though it was unfair. In this case I'm arguing in favour of someone who has less than someone else and saying THAT's unfair. Hence: No chip

one group is blatantly breaking the law , the other is legally manipulating around it .... there is a difference whether we like it or not / fair or not

No arguments there. But personally I DON'T like it, and DON'T think it's fair. As an armchair anarcho-syndicalist, I like to redress the imbalance in small ways when the opportunity presents

My mate said the other day that you go anywhere else in the world and see a bloke in a Rolls Royce , people look at it and say nice car , it's what I aspire to and through hard work i hope to achieve it ... come to England and you see someone in a rolls Royce and we think " rich rocket polisher "

I don't think it's unique to England at all at all at all. Probably because everyone around the world knows that the Rolls Royce owner is a million times more likely to be the bloke who came up with the idea of charging two dollars to use another bank's cash machine than he is to be the tradesman that you paid to have your wall fixed.

[mockingbird_franklin]

My mate said the other day that you go anywhere else in the world and see a bloke in a Rolls Royce , people look at it and say nice car , it's what I aspire to and through hard work i hope to achieve it ... come to England and you see someone in a rolls Royce and we think " rich rocket polisher "

Probably true.

And it's one of things I like best about this country.

But if it were just a case of some people being a bit more comfortable than others it would never go beyond that.

If somebody has a nicer house or car than me, I don't think I have any right to try and bring them down.

But when it's a case of some people sitting on TRILLIONS of pounds while millions are dying through poverty, malnutrition, disease and violence, I think we not only have the right to bring them down, it becomes a **** OBLIGATION.

But Mike that ignores the undeniable fact, rich people are only rich because they work so much harder than anybody else, and poor people are only poor because they are lazy deadbeats who could so easily join the super rich but for the lack of a bit of hard work under their belts.

[tonyh29]

My mate said the other day that you go anywhere else in the world and see a bloke in a Rolls Royce , people look at it and say nice car , it's what I aspire to and through hard work i hope to achieve it ... come to England and you see someone in a rolls Royce and we think " rich rocket polisher "

Probably true.

And it's one of things I like best about this country.

But if it were just a case of some people being a bit more comfortable than others it would never go beyond that.

If somebody has a nicer house or car than me, I don't think I have any right to try and bring them down.

But when it's a case of some people sitting on TRILLIONS of pounds while millions are dying through poverty, malnutrition, disease and violence, I think we not only have the right to bring them down, it becomes a **** OBLIGATION.

But Mike that ignores the undeniable fact, rich people are only rich because they work so much harder than anybody else, and poor people are only poor because they are lazy deadbeats who could so easily join the super rich but for the lack of a bit of hard work under their belts.

Surely if we are going for the full sterotype then rich people only got rich by inheriting money from their families who exploited poor folk back in the day ...

I've not seen anyone argue the case about poor people being deadbeats but now you mention it the pub opposite me is full of builders and has been since lunch time .. and they are chatting to all these chain smoking single mothers who probably don't work

ahh stereotypes , gotta love them

[mockingbird_franklin]

My mate said the other day that you go anywhere else in the world and see a bloke in a Rolls Royce , people look at it and say nice car , it's what I aspire to and through hard work i hope to achieve it ... come to England and you see someone in a rolls Royce and we think " rich rocket polisher "

Probably true.

And it's one of things I like best about this country.

But if it were just a case of some people being a bit more comfortable than others it would never go beyond that.

If somebody has a nicer house or car than me, I don't think I have any right to try and bring them down.

But when it's a case of some people sitting on TRILLIONS of pounds while millions are dying through poverty, malnutrition, disease and violence, I think we not only have the right to bring them down, it becomes a **** OBLIGATION.

But Mike that ignores the undeniable fact, rich people are only rich because they work so much harder than anybody else, and poor people are only poor because they are lazy deadbeats who could so easily join the super rich but for the lack of a bit of hard work under their belts.

Surely if we are going for the full sterotype then rich people only got rich by inheriting money from their families who exploited poor folk back in the day ...

I've not seen anyone argue the case about poor people being deadbeats but now you mention it the pub opposite me is full of builders and has been since lunch time .. and they are chatting to all these chain smoking single mothers who probably don't work

ahh stereotypes , gotta love them

better pop over there, maybe you can entice a few builders to dodge some tax by offing them a bit of cash in hand work. even things out a bit like.

[tonyh29]

My mate said the other day that you go anywhere else in the world and see a bloke in a Rolls Royce , people look at it and say nice car , it's what I aspire to and through hard work i hope to achieve it ... come to England and you see someone in a rolls Royce and we think " rich rocket polisher "

Probably true.

And it's one of things I like best about this country.

But if it were just a case of some people being a bit more comfortable than others it would never go beyond that.

If somebody has a nicer house or car than me, I don't think I have any right to try and bring them down.

But when it's a case of some people sitting on TRILLIONS of pounds while millions are dying through poverty, malnutrition, disease and violence, I think we not only have the right to bring them down, it becomes a **** OBLIGATION.

But Mike that ignores the undeniable fact, rich people are only rich because they work so much harder than anybody else, and poor people are only poor because they are lazy deadbeats who could so easily join the super rich but for the lack of a bit of hard work under their belts.

Surely if we are going for the full sterotype then rich people only got rich by inheriting money from their families who exploited poor folk back in the day ...

I've not seen anyone argue the case about poor people being deadbeats but now you mention it the pub opposite me is full of builders and has been since lunch time .. and they are chatting to all these chain smoking single mothers who probably don't work

ahh stereotypes , gotta love them

better pop over there, maybe you can entice a few builders to dodge some tax by offing them a bit of cash in hand work. even things out a bit like.

you think a builder would be interested in working after 1pm :winkold:

[mockingbird_franklin]

not if it's on the books

[RunRickyRun]

My mate said the other day that you go anywhere else in the world and see a bloke in a Rolls Royce , people look at it and say nice car , it's what I aspire to and through hard work i hope to achieve it ... come to England and you see someone in a rolls Royce and we think " rich rocket polisher "

That's a myth. As far back as Plutarch's "On the Love of Wealth", people have been criticised for hoarding or flaunting wealth.

So too with money-getters: he who is in want and destitute would perhaps call a halt once he got an estate or discovered a hidden treasure or was helped by a friend to pay his debt and get free from his creditor; whereas he who has more than enough and yet hungers for still more will find no remedy in gold or silver or horses and sheep and cattle, but in casting out the source of mischief and being purged. DFor his ailment is not poverty, but insatiability and avarice, arising from the presence in him of a false and unreflecting judgement; and unless someone removes this, like a tapeworm, from his mind, he will never cease to need superfluities — that is, to want what he does not need.

[BOF]

They're different things Ricky. You're saying the rich are never satiated and that may very well be true. It probably is. But what Tony is saying is that attitudes towards owning those nice things can differ from country to country. Ireland in my experience is similar to Tony's opinion of Britain in that we see a Roller and want to key it, whereas an American will say "one day I'll own one too".

[RunRickyRun]

The Athenians under Pericles were loathe to display wealth as it was seen as vulgar so it is not unique to Britain in the present day at all (which is what Tony was arguing). It's a situation that has exsisted for Millenia.

[CrackpotForeigner]

They're different things Ricky. You're saying the rich are never satiated and that may very well be true. It probably is. But what Tony is saying is that attitudes towards owning those nice things can differ from country to country. Ireland in my experience is similar to Tony's opinion of Britain in that we see a Roller and want to key it, whereas an American will say "Looks like the crack business is booming".

Fixed. 8)

[mockingbird_franklin]

But what Tony is saying is that attitudes towards owning those nice things can differ from country to country. Ireland in my experience is similar to Tony's opinion of Britain in that we see a Roller and want to key it, whereas an American will say "one day I'll own one too".

not my feeling at all, as I have no Idea what someone did to get the shiney big mobile status symbol, So until I have some knowledge of how they gained enough wealth to own and run one I would prefer not to jump to conclusions.

For all they know they could have earn' t it on there knees as the worlds hardest working toilet cleaner, regularly busting out 20 hour days with the Jiff. in that case if that's what they want to spend their well earned cash on, fair enough as I'm sure under PAYE they will have paid there fair share of tax.

Equally they could have whored there way to a small fortune, and all those years performing lewd perverted sexual services (provided they declared and payed their Tax) means they have every right to express there wealth however they like.

I don't particularly aspire to own a rolls, I prefer to be far more introverted and understated when it comes to cars, but as It's not a choice I'm likely to face I'm safe knowing I'ts unlikely I will be proved a hypocrite, if I ever do work hard enough to afford one of course.

As an aside I'd be very unlikely to damage someone elses property if they were a toffy nosed git, just my sense of respecting other peoples property no matter how detestable they are.

[CrackpotForeigner]

Looking at the UK Happiness survey, I feel my suspicions are confirmed:

People are happiest when equality is highest (e.g. Orkney, etc.).

Conclusion: The flashy **** in the Rolls is making everyone miserable and deserves what's coming to him

[BOF]

Haha.

[DeepDish]

The problem is that these money in the public sector would have created a monster so big that it would have killed us all.

When we know that all the western countries ran with a huge deficit in the best economical period the world have seen, how can we trust these countries with even more money?

The problem is not that the government has too little revenues. The problems is that they have created a public sector that is so big that it creates problems.

There is no surprise that the southern European countries are in the biggest trouble. They have created a red tape that makes it almost impossible to make business.

Read about a rich Australian here who wanted to start business in Greece.

Regulations. Corruption. Too many local public sector workers with too much power. No wonder things go shit.

Don't give these countries more money.

And let's talk about the US: What good would have come out of more money to the US government? Make it easier to fund wars? Even bigger bailouts? More subsidies to the agriculture? Funding the big pharmacy with unlimited amounts after more health care reforms?

No, we need to trim the governments. Not give them even more money to waste.

[villanmike]

Fair play to the tax dodgers, thieves and crooks amongst them

small point but if they are legally avoiding ways of pay tax , then how do they become crooks and thieves ?

As it was in the news today it reminded me , but whenI had my new kitchen fitted the other year I paid the Plasterer , electrician and the fitter in cash ... I suspect that not one of them declared that income .. so that IS theft ... what these other people are doing doesn't appear to be breaking any current laws , other than maybe a moral one

Ok my electricians couple of hundred quid isn't in the same league as few trillion but I bet when he went down the pub that night and told all his mates that he had a result with a cash in hand job I bet they all said "Nice one mate" rather than pointing out the laws that he had broken and going into outrage mode on the interweb

I'm guessing he used that money to buy a few beers for himself after a hard days work, then maybe the next day a nice pram for his unborn daughter/son (it is extra money after all).

He certainly didn't buy a yacht or a super sports car, or a Villa in Spain where he will only visit once every year...when he is bored.

At a guess anyway!

[tonyh29]

Fair play to the tax dodgers, thieves and crooks amongst them

small point but if they are legally avoiding ways of pay tax , then how do they become crooks and thieves ?

As it was in the news today it reminded me , but whenI had my new kitchen fitted the other year I paid the Plasterer , electrician and the fitter in cash ... I suspect that not one of them declared that income .. so that IS theft ... what these other people are doing doesn't appear to be breaking any current laws , other than maybe a moral one

Ok my electricians couple of hundred quid isn't in the same league as few trillion but I bet when he went down the pub that night and told all his mates that he had a result with a cash in hand job I bet they all said "Nice one mate" rather than pointing out the laws that he had broken and going into outrage mode on the interweb

I'm guessing he used that money to buy a few beers for himself after a hard days work, then maybe the next day a nice pram for his unborn daughter/son (it is extra money after all).

He certainly didn't buy a yacht or a super sports car, or a Villa in Spain where he will only visit once every year...when he is bored.

At a guess anyway!

i think you'd have to be closer to suicidal to want to visit Spain ....

You raise a valid point but .... but to a degree your comment is very much mirrored by people in the UK isn't it ? .. the good old honest working man trying to eek out an existence and fair play to him for breaking the law and getting one over the system , where as some rich toffee nose rocket polisher manipulates a system and doesn't break the law and our sense of outrage goes through the roof

my personal feel is that if there was a fairer tax system in place , people wouldn't look to exploit it's loopholes ... and No , I'm not suggesting a billionaire should pay the same tax as someone on £10k before anyone suggests it

[norton65ca]

Spain is that bad? I've seen some pictures, looks a lovely place...

[drat01]

The problem is that these money in the public sector would have created a monster so big that it would have killed us all.

The problem is not that the government has too little revenues. The problems is that they have created a public sector that is so big that it creates problems.

Ah I see the same old arguments are being spun out. If these were remotely true (which they are not and are used as a way by the rich typically right wing elite) how come that these trillions of pounds then are being stored away avoiding tax? Are these people actually civic governors of public finances storing monies in the Cayman Islands or the IOM or Jersey etc to avoid filling the pot holes? Or is the reality that the rich have become richer and the poor become poorer while burdening responsibility for the worlds financial issues on the latter?

Too many local public sector workers with too much power. No wonder things go shit.

[coda]

'Cash-in-hand' Conservative minister helped the rich avoid tax

David Gauke worked for six years at Macfarlanes which boasts about its “particular expertise” in producing “tax-efficient” structures for big companies

THE Treasury minister who attacked cash-in-hand payments as “morally wrong” worked for a law firm which helped slash the tax bills of big City companies.

It emerged yesterday that David Gauke, who lashed out at the practice that allows some tradesman to avoid paying their full share of tax, worked for six years at Macfarlanes which boasts about its “particular expertise” in producing “tax-efficient” structures for big companies.

On its website it adds: “We are able to develop innovative solutions to the most complex tax issues when necessary.”

Labour MP Grahame Morris slammed Mr Gauke’s “complete hypocrisy”, saying: “It is a smokescreen to divert attention from this government’s abject failure to legislate for a general anti-avoidance principle.

“This Government of ­millionaires continues to condone the activities of the very wealthy individuals and corporate interests who avoid paying their fair share of tax.”

And Matthew Sinclair, of the TaxPayers’ Alliance, urged Mr Gauke to be careful about turning tax into a moral issue “particularly when they have worked at firms offering ­fortunate clients ­tax-efficient ­incentive plans”.

A spokeswoman for Mr Gauke confirmed he had worked at the law firm but said it was not in their tax department.

A growing number of ministers were yesterday forced to admit they had paid people in cash.

An aide to David Cameron said the PM “may have paid in cash but he has never paid at any time in his life to help them evade their share of tax”.

But defiant London Mayor Boris Johnson dismissed government anger over paying cash in hand. He said he had “certainly paid a lot of cash in hand”

[CrackpotForeigner]

But defiant London Mayor Boris Johnson dismissed government anger over paying cash in hand. He said he had “certainly paid a lot of cash in hand”