Bollitics - Ireland, the Euro and the future of the EU

[CVByrne]

Not True, Greece paid Goldman Sachs to hide their level of borrowing. They needed to do this to meet the guidelines of the eurozone.

You don't really believe that no one was aware of this, do you?

Oh I'm sure they were but like most things at the time assumed it'd get sorted out and/or it didn't really matter too much as the Greek Economy was "growing" at 4.2% per annum.

The Greeks still did it though. I remember over here when the Government were touting how low our debt was, we paid off our debt from the 80's and 90's. We didn't have 100%+ GDP in debt funding public sector job, pensions and benefits like Greece.

[snowychap]

Go the Greeks.

When you have your Prime Minsiter in your parliament telling your 'representatives' to ignore the voice of those outside then you need to take your country back.

[CVByrne]

Just because people are protesting and rioting on the streets doesn't mean they are the majority, nor that they speak for those who are not protesting.

For example Thatcher had the support of the majority of Britain when she took on the Miners. Yet there was serious unrest and rioting then.

Democracy is Democracy.

[snowychap]

Just because people are protesting and rioting on the streets doesn't mean they are the majority, nor that they speak for those who are not protesting.

No, it doesn't necessarily. It also doesn't necessarily mean that they are not the majority view just because they haven't actually got over 50% of the population out on the street.

For example Thatcher had the support of the majority of Britain when she took on the Miners.

Really? Did you do some kind of survey?

I'd say there was no majority on either side. I'd suggest that, as is probably usual in political matters, the majority were on neither side specifically (through either indifference or lack of ability to reason).

It's quite possible (I'd say likely) that a good deal of a populace, when pushed, will defer to the point of view of those in charge (often deferentially and often for the reasons suggested at the end of my previous sentence).

Democracy is democracy

What is that particular soundbite supposed to mean?

[CVByrne]

It's meant that Governments are elected to run countries and need to do what they believe is right for the country, if that means despite public protests and unrest they so be it.

The current Greek Government won a huge victory in late 2009 when Austerity measures were going to be the future of Greece. So they have a firm mandate from the people of Greece to govern in that respect.

As for Thatcher analogy. No people don't have to have strong opinions on everything, but that's why we elect the Government. Government needs to do what they believe is right and they do that in the name of the people, as they have a Democratic mandate to do so.

It's not a perfect system by any means. But it's certainly the best system anywhere in the world.

[JulieB]

CVByrne wrote:

Not True, Greece paid Goldman Sachs to hide their level of borrowing. They needed to do this to meet the guidelines of the eurozone.

Don't get me started on these so called mega auditors/institutions doing reports and due diligence on others....

Anyone seen the report the FSA commissioned PWC to do at a knock down price of £7M on collapse of RBS?!! ..... No thought not!

Consultancies their exorbitant fees and the quangos that commission them have an awful lot to answer IMHO but it's just

being swept under the carpet in the UK as elsewhere.

[LondonLax]

Go the Greeks.

When you have your Prime Minsiter in your parliament telling your 'representatives' to ignore the voice of those outside then you need to take your country back.

The level of violence is a step too far though. Those bank staff who were killed did not deserve to be burnt alive, they were just tellers working in a local branch.

Some of the 'protesters' are out of control.

[snowychap]

It's meant that Governments are elected to run countries and need to do what they believe is right for the country, if that means despite public protests and unrest they so be it.

The current Greek Government won a huge victory in late 2009 when Austerity measures were going to be the future of Greece. So they have a firm mandate from the people of Greece to govern in that respect.

Read through their manifesto, did you?

I didn't so I can't detail exactly what platform he stood on.

I did find this BBC article, though:

Papandreou sworn in as Greek PM

George Papandreou has been sworn in as Greece's prime minister after his Panhellenic Socialist Movement (Pasok) won general elections on Sunday.

The son and grandson of former prime ministers was sworn in at a ceremony in the president's Athens mansion.

Mr Papandreou, 57, is to announce his cabinet appointments later.

Pasok won 44% of votes in the snap polls, ending five years of governance by the conservative New Democracy party of Costas Karamanlis, who has resigned.

Mr Karamanlis' party won just 33.5% of vote - its worst ever election result.

Having won an absolute majority with 160 seats in the country's 300-member parliament, Mr Papandreou has said he will inject up to 3bn euros ($4.4bn: £2.7bn) into the economy in an effort to pull Greece out of a financial crisis.

"Nothing is going to be easy. It will take a lot of hard work," he said after the results were announced.

"I will always be upfront with the Greek people, so we can solve the country's problems together."

... a little more on link

So even allowing for the pretty obvious inadequacies in their electoral system (much like the UK's) where a 44% share of the vote gives a landslide victory, it would appear that the main thing (such as it was reported by the BBC) was a stimulus proposal.

I think that when they 'discovered' that the books were a fair bit dodgy (and thus worse than before), they went in to austerity mode and that's what started the strikes in the first place.

His government also narrowly survived a confidence vote last week.

As for Thatcher analogy.

It wasn't an analogy, it was a claim that Thatcher had the majority of Britain in support in the miners' strike and that. therefore, the protestors/ritoers (or strikers as they were) were in the wrong because they weren't the majority.

No one could really say which group (pro-strike or anti-strike) were in the majority and, therefore, it wasn't a good point to make in support of your anti-striking/anti-protest point of view.

[Gringo]

Democracy is Democracy.

lolz

[snowychap]

The level of violence is a step too far though. Those bank staff who were killed did not deserve to be burnt alive, they were just tellers working in a local branch.

I'd say a couple of things.

Firstly, that I'm no fan of violence, wouldn't partake in it myself and wouldn't be suggesting that people do, so I'm not going to condone people being violent.

My 'go the greeks' was more of a gesture of support (in the same way as I made that gesture in the Tunisia &c. thread) of a people taking to the streets to do something about their predicament rather than being supine drones believing that the powers in charge have the right answers and are making the right calls.

I would prefer any level of protest to do its thing without any violence, in a defiant way showing that they will not be moved from their cause no matter what is thrown against them. Only a minority would tend towards that method, though. Thinking that may work tends to get me called naïve. :winkold:

Secondly, I wasn't aware that such a thing had happened - pretty nasty stuff.

Some of the 'protesters' are out of control.

Indeed they are. They are also protesting in a country that is out of control and against a government, (and further) financial and political system that is also out of control.

[Gringo]

The level of violence is a step too far though. Those bank staff who were killed did not deserve to be burnt alive, they were just tellers working in a local branch.

Some of the 'protesters' are out of control.

Indeed what happened a year ago was extremely regrettable. But to say that means the 'protestors' (I like the way you put it in quotes as if ...?) are out of controls would be equivalent to say the state was out of control for the shooting of the 15 year old boy back in 2008 that has sparked the whole cycle of violence.

[CVByrne]

CVByrne wrote:

Not True, Greece paid Goldman Sachs to hide their level of borrowing. They needed to do this to meet the guidelines of the eurozone.

Don't get me started on these so called mega auditors/institutions doing reports and due diligence on others....

Anyone seen the report the FSA commissioned PWC to do at a knock down price of £7M on collapse of RBS?!! ..... No thought not!

Consultancies their exorbitant fees and the quangos that commission them have an awful lot to answer IMHO but it's just

being swept under the carpet in the UK as elsewhere.

My personal favourite. Irish Government comissioned Merril Lynch to examine the books of Anglo Irish Bank after the Government Guarantee in late 2008. Clean bill of health given, only a liquidity problem.

That liquidity problem has cost us €35bln and counting for Anglo alone.

[snowychap]

Jeez. Just endured the greek MP on Newsnight who said, "Greece has to become an entrepreneurial, exporting economy."

This was mixed in with comments about the eurozone and beyond, implicit in everything was 'contagion' and that everything was connected.

Not everyone can be a net exporter, yet everyone wants to be.

[JulieB]

My personal favourite. Irish Government comissioned Merril Lynch to examine the books of Anglo Irish Bank after the Government Guarantee in late 2008. Clean bill of health given, only a liquidity problem.

That liquidity problem has cost us €35bln and counting for Anglo alone.

THIS example you've given CV is EXACTLY why the whole thing is going belly up

Why are the press colluding with all these cover ups and not exposing them? Are they all completely thick where financial matters are concerned

or is something more sinister going on. It's like the Illuminati we keep hearing about are keeping these matters under wraps to the masses so that everything can carry on as normal. ie short termed greedism.

I had to laugh today when Hector Sants head of the FSA admitted that large financial institutions didn't seem to have learnt anything from past mis sellings and that the new improved FCA might just be able to control matters IF they are given some more money.

FSA costs the industry over £450M a year Hector and what have you been doing with all this cash while all these scams and reckless practices have been perpetrated on your watch then?

[peterms]

CVByrne wrote:

Not True, Greece paid Goldman Sachs to hide their level of borrowing. They needed to do this to meet the guidelines of the eurozone.

Don't get me started on these so called mega auditors/institutions doing reports and due diligence on others....

Anyone seen the report the FSA commissioned PWC to do at a knock down price of £7M on collapse of RBS?!! ..... No thought not!

Consultancies their exorbitant fees and the quangos that commission them have an awful lot to answer IMHO but it's just

being swept under the carpet in the UK as elsewhere.

My personal favourite. Irish Government comissioned Merril Lynch to examine the books of Anglo Irish Bank after the Government Guarantee in late 2008. Clean bill of health given, only a liquidity problem.

That liquidity problem has cost us €35bln and counting for Anglo alone.

The entire role of these institutions merits very close examination.

The banks who disguised their activities and lied about their "assets".

The credit ratings agencies who were bribed to lie about the value of these toxic debts, taking refuge in the US constitution by claiming their oh-so-prized professional judgements were no more than "free speech", like some bloke in a bar repeating gossip, to prevent them from being sued for incompetence.

The auditors who either failed to see it, or were persuaded to say nothing.

They should all be either in the dock or on the dole queue, or probably both.

[leviramsey]

The credit ratings agencies who were bribed to lie about the value of these toxic debts, taking refuge in the US constitution by claiming their oh-so-prized professional judgements were no more than "free speech", like some bloke in a bar repeating gossip, to prevent them from being sued for incompetence.

How exactly is it not constitutionally protected speech?

The actions others may take as a consequence of one's speech are not the responsibility of the speaker. To regulate speech based on what others do in response to that speech sets an exceptionally dangerous precedent.

The error was in regulations (e.g. the Basel accords) according those ratings, issued by a legally-created oligopoly, the status of gospel truth.

[LondonLax]

The level of violence is a step too far though. Those bank staff who were killed did not deserve to be burnt alive, they were just tellers working in a local branch.

Some of the 'protesters' are out of control.

Indeed what happened a year ago was extremely regrettable. But to say that means the 'protestors' (I like the way you put it in quotes as if ...?) are out of controls would be equivalent to say the state was out of control for the shooting of the 15 year old boy back in 2008 that has sparked the whole cycle of violence.

I don't consider people who use legitimate protests as cover to commit acts of violence and destruction as actual protesters. They are thugs. To call that group 'protesters' legitimises them and degrades the real protestors there.

[snowychap]

I don't consider people who use legitimate protests as cover to commit acts of violence and destruction as actual protesters.

How do you know that people are using protests as 'cover'?

Can a peaceful protest not get violent? It sounds as though you are couching it in terms to get a point across rather than analysing a situation.

[LondonLax]

Another 50 people injured yesterday in Athens. Mostly police, police who no doubt are having their wages and pensions cut and when not on shift would be marching alongside the protestors against the austerity measures.

Two days ago there were reports of fights breaking out between rival groups of protestors ending in a stabbing. There are a number of reports of groups of people who are there as anarchists rather than genuine protestors.

I could never pick up a brick and hurl it at someone I don't know and have never met so I am unwilling to excuse other people who do it, let alone the idea of stabbing someone I disagree with.

[peterms]

The credit ratings agencies who were bribed to lie about the value of these toxic debts, taking refuge in the US constitution by claiming their oh-so-prized professional judgements were no more than "free speech", like some bloke in a bar repeating gossip, to prevent them from being sued for incompetence.

How exactly is it not constitutionally protected speech?

The actions others may take as a consequence of one's speech are not the responsibility of the speaker. To regulate speech based on what others do in response to that speech sets an exceptionally dangerous precedent.

The error was in regulations (e.g. the Basel accords) according those ratings, issued by a legally-created oligopoly, the status of gospel truth.

Apparently it is constitutionally protected speech, under the terms of US law. In the wider world of common sense, however, it would be regarded as a professional judgement. I wonder if we are also to take the professional opinions of doctors, lawyers etc as just free speech, rather than hold them to account for the professional opinions they get well paid to give?

Yes, I agree the problem is exactly that they have been elevated to a level of importance which is damaging. The requirement to use them, together with their system of giving apparently definitive ratings, is dangerous. When you combine that with a level of expertise apparently the same as newspaper pundits and people down the pub and on the internet, it's a recipe for disaster, which is exactly what we got. It will be interesting to see what the regulators actually do about them - they've been mulling it over for a while.