Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #6 - Leaders Debate 3

[avfc89]

And also Cameron has this ridiculous scheme to allow people to build schools. DIY Britain, great....

Why shouldn’t people be allowed to do it? What makes the state always best?

It's just shirking responsibility in my mind. Why not invest into the Education System?

[drat01]

Why shouldn’t people be allowed to do it? What makes the state always best?

I agree, it's a tory policy I agree with. It'll require some thought and (wait for it) regulation to ensure they don't hire some local spivs but actual qualified teachers, but all in all having a school curriculum which prepares children for life rather than university should work wonders.

Where will the funding be from?

[snowychap]

On a happier note, anyone see Rory Bremner dressed up as Hague cavassing with George Osbourne on Bremner,Bird and Fortune last night?

Yes, I had a good old chuckle.

It looked as though he was able to spend more time with Osborne than with Blears (it was Blears that he was dressed up as Gordo for, wasn't it?).

[snowychap]

And also Cameron has this ridiculous scheme to allow people to build schools. DIY Britain, great....

Better DIY than PFI, though in the end I think you'll find it's exactly the same thing.

Indeed and we'll all be told it's our bloody fault if/when it costs so much and/or goes bloody wrong.

[avfc89]

Why shouldn’t people be allowed to do it? What makes the state always best?

I agree, it's a tory policy I agree with. It'll require some thought and (wait for it) regulation to ensure they don't hire some local spivs but actual qualified teachers, but all in all having a school curriculum which prepares children for life rather than university should work wonders.

Where will the funding be from?

Per Pupil funding system I think, it won't work.

[Gringo]

Why shouldn’t people be allowed to do it? What makes the state always best?

I agree, it's a tory policy I agree with. It'll require some thought and (wait for it) regulation to ensure they don't hire some local spivs but actual qualified teachers, but all in all having a school curriculum which prepares children for life rather than university should work wonders.

Where will the funding be from?

PFI or shady timeshare dealers like Jack Petchey - the same way bliar funded his academies.

People may remember that when "Dave" became tory leader, the only reason the labour education program got through parliament was because "Dave" got all the tories to vote for it, whilst all the old labour back benchers voted against it.

We already have an education policy that was developed due to the tories, why should it change if they gain power?

[Gringo]

On a happier note, anyone see Rory Bremner dressed up as Hague cavassing with George Osbourne on Bremner,Bird and Fortune last night?

Yes, I had a good old chuckle.

It looked as though he was able to spend more time with Osborne than with Blears (it was Blears that he was dressed up as Gordo for, wasn't it?).

Yes - it's the only time I've seen her on TV in the whole campaign, which is kind of a surprise for someone so recently a cabinet minister. Why could that be.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Why shouldn’t people be allowed to do it? What makes the state always best?

I agree, it's a tory policy I agree with. It'll require some thought and (wait for it) regulation to ensure they don't hire some local spivs but actual qualified teachers, but all in all having a school curriculum which prepares children for life rather than university should work wonders.

Where will the funding be from?

Well you could have a system of Per Pupil funding, probably this will be the route it'll go.

Personally I'd have the Parents ensure they have a thorough, well planned, buisness model, funds to start up the school and a contingency plan in place incase it goes tits up. Then if they pass that they can receive a grant to aid the day to day running and give them charitable status.

Another route would be to ensure the parents have a sponser before they start up, but that could be going down the a dangerous road of corporate owned schools!

I send my child to Starbucks college, how about you?

[drat01]

Typically a parent will only have a child at a school for 5 years? what happens when these "entrepreneurs?" have no further interest in running the school?

It's a silly idea and one that makes you wonder if your last comment is the way that they are looking?

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

The interest thing would be dealt with in initial application though, if they couldn't ensure they were in it for the long haul then they wouldn't be allowed to start the school up, basically. It'll be more a community run thing rather than a few parents.

Essentially I think the national curriculum is balls, I think it prepares people for further education, which in turn prepares them for either a specialised job or sweet fa. I think if you had a system were instead of having 'career' teachers teaching the same old crap, you had experienced people teaching children the stuff that matters, it would be for the best.

For example if you could have a retired/older GP teaching your children about health, instead of a random science teacher who teaches Drama on the the side, how could that not be a good thing?

Also, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Tories were essentially looking to privatise the Education system in order to have competition amongst schools, maybe we'll see boat race between Red Bull and CocaCola universities in the future?

[snowychap]

On the Tory education plans:

Don't trust the Conservative education policy – they want to implement our Swedish failures

Sweden has had the free school system that the UK Conservative party are advocating for some 15 years now. And during this time a number of serious problems have become evident that mean urgent reform is now necessary. In fact, it is exactly those parts of the system the Tories want to implement in Britain that we are proposing to put an end to in Sweden.

The reforms will not work without extra investment. The Labour party and the Swedish Social Democrats propose rising schools spending when the Conservatives in the UK and Sweden propose less. Spending alone won't always improve standards, but creating surplus places like this without providing the funding to allow for the surplus capacity you need could seriously harm standards.

A country's future lies in how well we educate and take care of our children. Every parent knows that special blend of excitement, pride and worry that you feel when your child goes to school for the first time. How will it go? Will they make friends? Will there be a teacher who sees the potential within every child?

Yet the Swedish authorities' own research has concluded that over the last fifteen years since the free schools were introduced, the number of low performing pupils has increased in Sweden, while the high performing pupils have neither increased in numbers nor have they become more successful.

That is why it is worrisome when the Tories want to copy our system by picking out the bad apples of the basket.

The free school system, implemented without imposing clear standards, has seen schools opening with sub-standard facilities, often without libraries, and with a far greater number of unqualified teachers.

What's more, the introduction of free schools has led to increased segregation where pupils from the same social background increasingly concentrate in certain attractive free schools.

This matters because segregation and poorer facilities serve no-one but the Conservatives seem to specifically think that these "freedoms" are positive aspects of the policy. This is a serious mistake.

To some extent, there is an irony in the fact that the British Tories are looking towards Sweden as an example for educational policies, when at the same time Swedish politicians – progressives as well as liberals and conservatives – are finding answers to some of our challenges in Britain. I am not only thinking about the British universities, but also the primary school system. We are deeply impressed by the one-to-one tuition and catch-up support, but also how you have been able to raise attraction to society's most important profession: the teacher, by the Teach first-program, which now is investigated and advocated both by us in the red-green opposition and by the conservative government. These and other Labour-initiated programs serves as examples for us.

If we win the Swedish general election in September, we won't prevent parents from choosing free schools for their children. But we will reform the system in order to reverse the serious problems that have become evident over in this system, increasing spending on schools. Spending alone won't always improve standards, but creating a free market as the Conservative proposals do without providing the funding to allow for the surplus capacity you need will certainly harm standards.

I sincerely hope there are aspects of the Swedish school system – especially how a system aiming at cohesion and equality in the system raises the performing results – that you can learn from us. But implement our successes – do not repeat our mistakes.

• Mona Sahlin is leader of the Swedish Social Democratic Party

[Gringo]

I think if you had a system were instead of having 'career' teachers teaching the same old crap, you had experienced people teaching children the stuff that matters, it would be for the best.

So we drop latin and introduce plumbing for beginners?

[drat01]

The interest thing would be dealt with in initial application though, if they couldn't ensure they were in it for the long haul then they wouldn't be allowed to start the school up, basically. It'll be more a community run thing rather than a few parents.

But the problem is who, other than Gary Glitter and Jonathon King, would be interested in setting up a school for the long term? If you are a parent again OK, but the same still applies you are off the interest chart once little Johnny leaves.

If this was an idea on Dragon's den I suspect they would all be out

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

I think if you had a system were instead of having 'career' teachers teaching the same old crap, you had experienced people teaching children the stuff that matters, it would be for the best.

So we drop latin and introduce plumbing for beginners?

It's up for the parents to decide, if they feel Latin is more important than Plumbing, Lighting etc then fair enough.

Personally I enjoyed Latin, and it gives you an excellent understanding of Language...but in the modern world you have to ask if it is necassary in comparison to more practical subjects which could aid you in every day life?

Then...people will argue that if you teach people how to do things for themselves you are essentially putting a tens of thousands people out of the job!

[Gringo]

The interest thing would be dealt with in initial application though, if they couldn't ensure they were in it for the long haul then they wouldn't be allowed to start the school up, basically. It'll be more a community run thing rather than a few parents.

But the problem is who, other than Gary Glitter and Jonathon King, would be interested in setting up a school for the long term? If you are a parent again OK, but the same still applies you are off the interest chart once little Johnny leaves.

If this was an idea on Dragon's den I suspect they would all be out

But surely labour faced the same problem with their academies and found lots of rich (christian) types who wanted to set up school. And they didn't have kids going to the skules either.

[snowychap]

I think if you had a system were instead of having 'career' teachers teaching the same old crap, you had experienced people teaching children the stuff that matters, it would be for the best.

So we drop latin and introduce plumbing for beginners?

For gammas and below. :winkold:

[drat01]

I enjoyed Latin - but it has not proven to be that useful - I am yet to visit anywhere where it has proven a useful aid to get a beer or a taxi. But I do know how to say "look at that dog" - so my Grammar school education was not all a waste

[Gringo]

I think if you had a system were instead of having 'career' teachers teaching the same old crap, you had experienced people teaching children the stuff that matters, it would be for the best.

So we drop latin and introduce plumbing for beginners?

It's up for the parents to decide, if they feel Latin is more important than Plumbing, Lighting etc then fair enough.

Personally I enjoyed Latin, and it gives you an excellent understanding of Language...but in the modern world you have to ask if it is necassary in comparison to more practical subjects which could aid you in every day life?

Then...people will argue that if you teach people how to do things for themselves you are essentially putting a tens of thousands people out of the job!

People know how to wash their clothes and mow their lawns, but they still pay other people to do it, and similarly, most people can't change a boiler or re-wire a house.

An education should be about "education" not preparing people for the capitalist sausage mill that just churns out workers to server the capitalist economy. Education should server to free people, not enslave.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

But the problem is who, other than Gary Glitter and Jonathon King, would be interested in setting up a school for the long term? If you are a parent again OK, but the same still applies you are off the interest chart once little Johnny leaves.

If this was an idea on Dragon's den I suspect they would all be out

As i said, it'll be more a community thing that just a few parents.

I'll elaborate.

You would have the board of directors, yes? And this board would be a few of the parents and whoever they feel could run the school on a longer term basis. For example you could have retired or even younger school principles, older members of the community and depending on intentions members of church etc. This way it wouldn't be left up to the parents to run the school but instead a collective of experienced people from the community.

I think you're reading too much into what the tories are saying by thinking it'll be a few disillusioned parents running off to form a school, then as soon as the kids are finished they wipe their hands clean. It won't be like that. At least that is not what I am trying to put across. If that is what they mean then **** that for a game of darts.

[snowychap]

An education should be about "education" not preparing people for the capitalist sausage mill that just churns out workers to server the capitalist economy. Education should server to free people, not enslave.

Hear, bloody hear, bloody hear.

(Hence the reference to Huxley in my previous post)