ianrobo1 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 name me a 'free' scoeity that is NOT a democracy Snowy ? as to your point on what would happen If they took a political descion, the thing is as an unelected HofS they should not be in a position to take it, thats the whole point. Ffor me if you want an unelected HofS all the power and priveledges they do have should be stripped away, no civil list and money only for expenses on state duty. Pete's point on the two brothers simply being allowed into the army is symptomatic of the problem. Once you strip them of that, they actually have little left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 22, 2008 Moderator Share Posted May 22, 2008 Oh yes and Prince Whatsisface, The eldest of the Jug ears offspring (na wait was that his only offsprog), the inbred Villa fan, managed to get his RAF wings in six weeks on a reduced course, where he wasn't really qualified to get them at all.................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrobo1 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 and then of course flys his mates on tax payers money to a wedding or stag do ?? all because he was born into a family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 name me a 'free' scoeity that is NOT a democracy Snowy ? Why? That has nothing to do with my argument. Going with Mich's comments, discussing freedom (and its connection with political systems) is a whole new thread and a much more complex debate than - no democracy = no freedom therefore democracy = freedom. If you want to start a new thread then go ahead but be prepared to begin it with a definition of freedom. And then be prepared for a very heavy debate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 as to your point on what would happen If they took a political descion, the thing is as an unelected HofS they should not be in a position to take it, thats the whole point. Actually, I think you missed the underlying point of those two situations which I described. Ultimately, in that kind of a dramatic situation (which is hypothetical), the general public would likely decide the fall out. I'd say that was an example of a kind of democracy, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrobo1 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 in a way yes but it is also a dictator using public opioin it get their own way my point issnowy is that you claim freedom is not neccessary linked with democracy but say apart from Monaco and a few other small abusrdities the most free countries are those democracies, though some so called democracies are just as bad as dictators, say Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Without defining freedom and what you mean by it, Ian, then the argument is pointless. Unfortunately it starts spiralling off into the nonsense that is this new found religion of democracy at the basis of wich is the tenet 'install elections and suddenly everyone is free..' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 22, 2008 Moderator Share Posted May 22, 2008 though some so called democracies are just as bad as dictators, say Russia. Or the UK under Labour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b6bloke Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 I go with the cheapest and thats the Royal Family. I remember reading that it would be cheaper to keep the royal family than pay for a republic and i cant be doing with anymore tax rises as i have a Audi A6 to feed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrobo1 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Without defining freedom and what you mean by it, Ian, then the argument is pointless. Unfortunately it starts spiralling off into the nonsense that is this new found religion of democracy at the basis of wich is the tenet 'install elections and suddenly everyone is free..' not true snowy you and I both know what the general term Freedom means and we are free in so many senses, because despite Bicks cheap point we are as free as any country non democracies just name me one in your view that is more free than any western democracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 22, 2008 Moderator Share Posted May 22, 2008 Without defining freedom and what you mean by it, Ian, then the argument is pointless. Unfortunately it starts spiralling off into the nonsense that is this new found religion of democracy at the basis of wich is the tenet 'install elections and suddenly everyone is free..' not true snowy you and I both know what the general term Freedom means and we are free in so many senses, because despite Bicks cheap point we are as free as any country non democracies just name me one in your view that is more free than any western democracy You need to read Orwell again Ian, seriously but this is taking us off topic so I'll stop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zen Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Just to make a very short comment on my view of democracy and liberty, without wanting to turn this thread into that discussion; it is perfectly possible to me unfree in some form of democracy, but only in a form of democracy can you really be free. It's all about what sort of democracy we make for ourselves - and at that, many so-called democracies fail miserably at times. Britain being one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 not true snowy you and I both know what the general term Freedom means and we are free in so many senses, because despite Bicks cheap point we are as free as any country We are free in some senses. We are not free in a lot of others. non democracies just name me one in your view that is more free than any western democracy WHY? Please refer to previous posts (last comment on this in this thread!).... If you want to start a new thread then go ahead but be prepared to begin it with a definition of freedom. And then be prepared for a very heavy debate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrobo1 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Bicks it is the topic about democracies and whether you can have one with an HofS at the top because they were born into it and I guess like some other questions I posed the lack of an answer is a clear sign that only with a democracy you cann be free. The further debate is how you can mae democracy work so you can be a s free as poss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke_holte_ender Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Republic all the way The royal family are just a normal family whos ancestors killed other families ancestors to be on the throne And what do they actually give this country? Apart from a stereotype Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 and I guess like some other questions I posed the lack of an answer is a clear sign that only with a democracy you cann be free. I know I said that the previous would be my last comment but.. Ian, if your attitude to debate is that you are 'proved' right just because no one answered a question which you posed then I feel that I must have to refrain from having any sort of a discussion with you in future. I will explain: if you wish to discuss the connection between democracy and freedom and whether they can exist independently or whether they can only ever co-exist then discuss the issues of democracy and freedom. Do not start asking for other examples which have no relevance. You can't use the non-existance of A to prove the veracity of B. And, Ian it is a thread about whether someone wants the Royal Family or a Republic. The Royal Family which exists in a country which you are using as the ultimate paradigm of democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrobo1 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 a royal family orrepublic is all about democracy and you made a statement which you can back up with either evidence or a country you feel that fits the bill any debate surely needs evidence or your own ideas or suggestions to back it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 My argument is that in this WORLD very few are free (and that democracy does not solve that problem). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrobo1 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 but you have to say that democracies are more free than any other alternative that has been tried Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Minus 10 degrees is warmer than minus 20 degrees. It is still not warm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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