Venezuela

[blandy]

Just now, Xann said:

The 'repair' has been worse than the problem in our last few scrapes, and if we're going by graphs? Get all the countries up and we'll do them in order of corruption.

First stop - Africa. Where a leader's wealth matches the country's debt.

It has been yes.

Africa, wherever elsewhere with corruption isn't venezuela (this thrad's topic). Venezuela is right near the bottom of the worst, most corrupt countries in the world. 169/180 according to transparency International.

It's got a problem with government corruption which is vastly more that "not doing enough to reduce it" which is how Peter assessed the efforts of Chavez and Maduro.

[Xann]

6 minutes ago, blandy said:

It has been yes.

If we keep nodding our heads when they want to topple someone?

They'll keep doing it.

How many dead now?

How many's enough?

Burn up all that oil and we're adding the flora and fauna the casualty list.

Beyond crazy.

[blandy]

18 minutes ago, Xann said:

If we keep nodding our heads when they want to topple someone?

Who is the "we" you are saying is nodding their head?

[Xann]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

Who is the "we" you are saying is nodding their head?

[blandy]

Thanks.

Ah, Protesta....no, not them....the Red hand of Jeremy Corb....no, not him....er, painters and deco.....students and hippies!  - I knew it was them all along. 

[villakram]

John Pilger with something worth reading. Including this gem

"Like a page from Alice’s tea party, the Trump administration has presented Juan Guaidó, a pop-up creation of the CIA-front National Endowment for Democracy, as the “legitimate President of Venezuela.” Unheard of by 81 percent of the Venezuelan people, according to The Nation, Guaidó has been elected by no one."

https://consortiumnews.com/2019/02/22/john-pilger-the-war-on-venezuela-is-built-on-lies/

[blandy]

37 minutes ago, villakram said:

John Pilger with something worth reading. Including this gem

"Like a page from Alice’s tea party, the Trump administration has presented Juan Guaidó, a pop-up creation of the CIA-front National Endowment for Democracy, as the “legitimate President of Venezuela.” Unheard of by 81 percent of the Venezuelan people, according to The Nation, Guaidó has been elected by no one."

https://consortiumnews.com/2019/02/22/john-pilger-the-war-on-venezuela-is-built-on-lies/

Wikipedia references that people not only have heard of him, but have a favourable opinion of him. So perhaps Pilger could be "mistaken".

Quote

A 7–11 February Colombian survey of 1,008 individuals in more than 20 cities, with a margin of error of 3%, found that 70% of Colombians had a favorable view of Guaidó, and 93% had a negative impression of Maduro.^[129]

Surveys between 30 January and 1 February by Meganálisis recorded that 84.6% of respondents recognized Guaidó as interim president, 11.2% were undecided and 4.1% believe that Maduro was president. The study of 1,030 Venezuelans was conducted in 16 states and 32 cities.^[130][131]

A telephone survey of 999 Venezuelans by Hercon between 25 and 30 January showed that 81.9% of respondents recognized Guaidó as president, 13.4% said Maduro was president and 4.6% were undecided.^[132] A Meganálisis survey of 870 Venezuelans between 24 and 25 January reported that 83.7% of respondents recognized Guaidó as the legitimate president, 11.4% could not decide who was president and 4.8% recognized Maduro as president.^[133]

A survey of 900 people between 19 and 20 January by Meganálisis reported that 81.4% hoped that Guaidó would be sworn in on 23 January while 84.2% supported a transitional government to replace Maduro's government.^[134] A telephone survey of 1,000 registered voters by Venezuelan pollster Hercon, conducted from 15 to 19 January 2019, reported 79.9% of respondents agreeing with Maduro leaving the presidency. When asked if they agreed with the National Assembly swearing in Guaidó as interim president, 68.6% agreed and 19.4% disagreed.^[135]

Wiki also says of the newspaper Pilger mentions  - so perhaps he's partly right? who knows?

Quote

Since the increase of censorship in Venezuela during the presidencies of Hugo Chávez and Nicolás Maduro, El Nacional has been described as one of the last independent newspapers in Venezuela.^[2]

Although how 81% of the population of Venezuela could have failed to have heard of the opposition leader at a time where he's all over the local and national and international news is a mystery.

[villakram]

5 hours ago, blandy said:

Wikipedia references that people not only have heard of him, but have a favourable opinion of him. So perhaps Pilger could be "mistaken".

Wiki also says of the newspaper Pilger mentions  - so perhaps he's partly right? who knows?

Although how 81% of the population of Venezuela could have failed to have heard of the opposition leader at a time where he's all over the local and national and international news is a mystery.

Please carry out the following thought experiment.

You are banned from the banking system. No CC, debit cards or checking facility. You now must trade in cash. I'm sure your employer will be understanding of your ban from the monetary system and will now pay you by check... cash is a non starter per his legal team, and count yourself lucky as this requires specific development of new procedures especially for you as all other accounting is now done electronically. Now you have to get your check cashed, but banks are out of the question. Have fun finding a shop or bar etc., to take the check (minus a fee). Of course, you could ask a friend but then they'd also be booted if they help out. Soon, you find yourself making friends with the types of people who are willing to skirt this rule and those who live in the cash and grey-black economy. As your quality of life decreases, this is because, you Sir, are a dirty commie Villa fan.

Now, imagine that you own a business and this happens...

This is the game. This is what the petrodollar empire is up to.

Venezuela is in the shitter because of the corrupt commies. Yes, that's why.    

 

Edited February 27, 2019 by villakram

[snowychap]

Surely, Venezuela is in the shitter for a multitude of reasons, no?

Is anyone on here arguing that Venezuela's problems are solely because of government corruption over the past however many years?

Is anyone on here arguing that the governments of however many years (and their associated relatives and friends) haven't been corrupt?

[blandy]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

Surely, Venezuela is in the shitter for a multitude of reasons, no?

Is anyone on here arguing that the governments of however many years (and their associated relatives and friends) haven't been corrupt?

I think so.

Pretty closely, and I may have misinterpreted, but yeah, I think maybe a couple of folks are rather playing down the endemic corruption of the Chavez/Maduro socialist governments, perhaps because of understandable revulsion of us imperialism. I suppose it’s all perspectives.

[chrisp65]

It's not so much playing down the corruption and incompetence, it's making sure we are reminded every time that there is an agenda here to have a dabble and make a profit. We (at government level) have no interest in whether a Venezuelan policeman or politician takes bribes. We don't care if the doctors have reliable electricity. Other than that it makes it easier for us to put our man in place and dole out some contracts.

Once the new guy is installed, we won't be coaching Venezuelan local government on transparency. We'll be looking for the pay off.

Let's hope we do a better job of getting a slice of the action than we did in Libya and Iraq.

If the media included that half of the story, perhaps others wouldn't feel the need to. 

 

Remind me, how are we doing so far with standing up for the refugee Rohingya? 

I guess we solved that and so that's why we rolled on to Venezuela?

Ahh shit, the Rohingya ain't got no oil.

 

[snowychap]

18 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

It's not so much playing down the corruption and incompetence, it's making sure we are reminded every time that there is an agenda here to have a dabble and make a profit. We (at government level) have no interest in whether a Venezuelan policeman or politician takes bribes.

It's not a case of a 'politician taking a bribe', though, is it?

It's whether the late Hugo and his relatives made themselves (unbelievably) rich at the expense of the country over which they had political control.

There's no 'ah, but' in this. They either did or they didn't.

God knows I'm more sympathetic to the apparent political ideals of Chavez than I am to rampant capitalism, US imperialism or Russian imperialism but when it comes down to it, it appears that they're all ****.

[snowychap]

32 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Remind me, how are we doing so far with standing up for the refugee Rohingya?

I don't know. You'll have to tell me who the 'we' is and what you mean by 'standing up for'.

Edited February 28, 2019 by snowychap

[chrisp65]

8 hours ago, snowychap said:

I don't know. You'll have to tell me who the 'we' is and what you mean by 'standing up for'.

'We' are the U.K. as represented by the politicians we've collectively chosen to represent us.

I guess standing up for the Rohingya would include Richard Branson organising a 'Live Richard' concert on the border, whilst we nominate a new leader for Myanmar and set about regime change?

Yes, I know we're talking more than parking fines being pocketed by officials when corruption gets you down to the 168th worst country in the world. I just wonder why we didn't start with regime change for countries 169 to 195? Any reason we went for lucky 168?

I've said it a few times, but I'll give it one more spin. I'm not massively interested in Venezuela, why would I be? They're 5,000 miles away. The people there are truly suffering, as are many people all over the world and much closer to home. Many of which we may even have some historical or cultural connection with. Many of which, we have hand a hand in causing their distress.

So why are we so bothered about this dirt poor oil rich location? I suspect the answer's in the question.

But hey, if this is the new U.K. fighting injustice wherever we see it then I'm up for that. I can prep a list of other good causes that 'we' can get involved with.

Some have no oil, I presume that won't be a problem?

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

'We' are the U.K. as represented by the politicians we've collectively chosen to represent us.

You may as well say them, then.

Quote

I guess standing up for the Rohingya would include Richard Branson organising a 'Live Richard' concert on the border

I'm not sure anyone on here (or elsewhere) feels 'represented' by Richard Branson.

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

I've said it a few times, but I'll give it one more spin. I'm not massively interested in Venezuela, why would I be? They're 5,000 miles away.

If the topic is Venezuela then perhaps the best thing would be to commit oneself to talking about the situation as it is rather than continually downplay whatever might be happening or have happened by pushing the same angle, i.e. "oh look at all these other countries."

It's fine and fair enough to question why powers, governments, politicians and white-haired Representatives for Wellingborough may be showing an interest in that country over and above another. Cynicism isn't without a great deal of merit, obviously but, yes, you are downplaying corruption (and, by implication, anything else that may be going on) when you describe it as 'a Venezuelan policeman or politician takes bribes ' and even when you say 'I know we're talking more than parking fines being pocketed by officials'.

It comes across as you using both the downplaying and the cynicism as a tool of distraction. It also suggests that you're using the 'Rohingya line' merely as a distraction, too.

 

[blandy]

12 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Remind me, how are we doing so far with standing up for the refugee Rohingya? 

I guess we solved that and so that's why we rolled on to Venezuela?

 Ahh shit, the Rohingya ain't got no oil.

I'm more with Snowy on this. "We" (the UK Government), aren't as far as I know doing any kind of effort to take over Venezuale and plunder it's assets for out evil oil companies, or whatever. We're doing next to now't. Yes, "we" have said words about "we" recognise this Guaido fellow as legit. and "we" haven't let Maduro have some of Venezuela's money which is in London, at the request of the opposition who are sure, with some justifcation, he'll nick it for him and his chums.

As regards, say Burma and the Rohinga persecution - "we" have done more than we've done with Venezuela (and in neither case is it actually much). Various named individuals of naughtiness have had their assets frozen, we've taken refugees, we've targetted aid efforts at the Rohinga specifically.

We've said politics words, like with venezuela, about nasty bad people.

I think your arguments of disproportionate effots and interference by the UK because Oil don't stand up to much.

[Xann]

12 minutes ago, blandy said:

I think your arguments of disproportionate efforts and interference by the UK because Oil don't stand up to much.

It's the US that covets the oil.

We acquiesce because it's the US and Parliament sucks corporate cock.

[blandy]

5 minutes ago, Xann said:

 It's the US that covets the oil.

We acquiesce because it's the US and Parliament sucks corporate cock.

I could amend my point, then, in light of that

I think your arguments of disproportionate efforts and interference by the UK because cock don't stand up.

[chrisp65]

Hey, look, perhaps I've been overly cynical and the poor of Venezuela are to be saved by our altruistic actions and we won't get or expect anything for it, then we will roll on to the next basket case nation and fix that one.

Perhaps we're starting at nation 168 and then doing 169, 170, 171...

When that happens, contrary to the way it usually plays out. When the people are saved and we've said their thanks is all the reward we ever wanted. At that point, I will happily accept I was wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[snowychap]