Thug

Could backfire though.

Leaving the conservatives in charge.

14 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Other users have covered most of it, but one of the big points I’ve not seen raised is that Iran are a predominantly Shia Muslim country whereas most of the Middle East is Sunni (including the Palestinians), which is why they’re generally quite isolated in the region beyond their own proxies.

Indeed.  I wonder if they are trying to garner support from other Muslim countries by appearing to be the biggest supporter of the Palestinian cause.  

Undermines the Saudi’s.

3 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Just wondering on your thoughts here:

I appreciate geopolitics is often a game of informed guesswork (who knows what long term interests and deals nations might have between each other) but don't you think that if Israel was in fact making progress to build economic relations with neighbouring arab states, they would keep their appearances as a little more 'calm'? I.e., retaliate against Hamas, but keep appearances up to seem a bit more friendly to the wider world audience? Maybe keep Netanyahu and the army from making some of the comments they made during the last 2 weeks? 

A scorched earth tactic against an enemy is not a great policy if the next day they are looking to build some new international relations?  

Like you say, politics is very complex at the best of times.  There are some very powerful entities that need to be kept happy.  Also, there are often opportunities that were thought impossible, which become viable after certain events.

A lot of conspiracy theories, without any back up evidence at all.  I’ve seen theories floating about suggesting the attack was kind of ‘allowed’ to happen.  Lots of questions about why it took as long as it did for the response, how an impenetrable wall suddenly got penetrated with such ease etc. Others suggesting that someone else from within collaborated.

I don’t believe these as I can’t understand how this would benefit Netanyahu in the slightest.  He was walking a tight rope already, and it seems pretty much like he’ll be gone as soon as things settle.

I think Hamas got ‘lucky’.  All the stars aligned and the tragedy unfolded.  And that invoked a furious response from Israel because they can’t be seen to be weak - to prevent any recurrence.

28 minutes ago, Ghost said:

I've been lurking on this thread for a while, reading all the various thoughts and opinions.

For the knowledgeable posters, can I ask what Iran has to do with any of this? What's their goal and why are they so keen on destabilising the region?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/India-Middle_East-Europe_Economic_Corridor
 

Quote

The India-Middle East-Europe Economic Corridor(IMEEC) is a planned economic corridor that aims to bolster economic development by fostering connectivity and economic integration between Asia, the Persian Gulf and Europe.^[1][2] The corridor is proposed from India to Europe through the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Israel and Greece.^[3]

This will empower the nations the corridor runs through,  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Saudi_Arabia_relations
 

Quote

During the main phase of the Arab–Israeli conflict, Saudi Arabia supported the Arab League against Israel. Likewise, the official Saudi policy towards the Israeli–Palestinian conflict has been supportive of the Palestinian Arabs. However, reports have surfaced in recent years indicating extensive behind-the-scenes cooperation in the areas of diplomacy, intelligence, and security. Warming relations between the two sides are a direct result of the unofficial Arab–Israeli alliance, which came to fruition in light of the Iran–Israel proxy conflict and the Iran–Saudi Arabia proxy conflict.^[2][3]At the same time, the Saudi relationship with the Palestinian National Authority has been deteriorating.^[4]

Iran does not see eye to eye with Israel, or Saudi Arabia.  Watching them come close together would be a very, very big blow to them.

The popular theory is that by sponsoring the attack by Hamas, they knew that Israel would retaliate - basically making Saudi’s position very uncomfortable and jeopardising the plans.

Remember, Iran pretty much sacrificed $6bn of their assets in the US which had literally only recently been unfrozen.

The $6bn will be nothing compared to the comparative wealth of the nations that are and aren’t in this corridor.

Theories are that Turkey are equally pissed at being left out of this corridor.

24 minutes ago, bickster said:

Your posts in this topic are as unbalanced and biased as the other fellas, Both as bad as each other.

Neither of you come across as discussing anything like in good faith. You’ve both made posts that miss out vital points or are just demonstrably untrue

Like what?

13 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

I’ve quoted the post I was talking about.

For this not to be a misleading statement it’s necessary to mention that Hamas made an offer Israel was never realistically going to accept - otherwise it absolutely does read like you’re saying Hamas just tried to give them back, but Israel refused to take them back so they could instead kill them and use it as an excuse to prolong the war.

If you didn’t intend it then fine, just clarify it - but that’s pretty clearly what you’ve written there (which is why the post set several people off).

Also, I’m aware of the situation around the families of the hostages vs the Israeli government, and I think you’re going way too far claiming the government actively want the hostages dead - I think they’re just more interested in continuing the war than rescuing them, but they’d happily accept them home if the cost was low. But I guess that’s a separate point.

Ok, this is what I meant, but worded it (very) poorly, 

I don’t think they actively want them dead, but they don’t seem to be prioritising getting them released. The net result being that they will likely perish. 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hanegbi-israel-wont-negotiate-with-hamas-on-hostages-now-will-remove-it-from-power/amp/
 

“Israel will not hold negotiations with an enemy that we have vowed to wipe from the face of the earth,” he said, briefing reporters at the Israel Defense Force’s Tel Aviv headquarters.

10 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

These videos you posting is not even close to the framing you wrote. I think you lied when you said that this framing was from a video.

Are you just going to pretend that you provided videos with the framing?

Oh and the first NBC video 1:29 directly shows the criticism of your insane dishonest framing.

Look man, in my opinion none of your posts are balanced.  They are blinkered, prejudiced and one sided.

The whole point of debate is to try to change someone mind - even a little.

You’re clearly on some different mission, and I find you tiresome.  I feel everything you say is to try to trap or provoke me, and you’ve already tried the typical methods of rallying everyone around to gang up on me - much like what I’ve seen in the media already.

I’m not going to directly engage you anymore because of this.  I believe your opinions are deeply rooted and completely prejudiced.  I find your lack of empathy towards people’s suffering (other than those you align with) to be deeply disturbing, and I feel that the more I engage you, the more chance I give you to spout your nonsense.

I don’t want any pain or suffering to anyone, Jewish people included.  I want de-escalation, all hostages to return home and above all I want peace.  I want Israel to be safe and to prosper, along with all its neighbours.  I want them to trade, and I want them to live happily.

So I shall leave it at that with you.  Whether you can bring it upon yourself to agree with any of that, quite frankly I don’t care any more.

UTV.

32 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Hmm. Saying “Hamas offered to release the hostages and Israel said no” without mentioning the preconditions is technically true, but I’d say it was still framed in a misleading way. You made it sound like they were just willing to let them go.

Obviously, you can debate whether it’s reasonable to expect Israel to trade 200 hostages for what was effectively an end to the war shortly after Hamas killed 1,200 Israelis (the offer was made quite early in the war), but imo you definitely need to mention it either way.

No I didn’t say that they were just willing to let them go.  I said Israel are not/were not/and will not be particularly interested in getting them back because they are more interested in a different objective.   Accusing me of bullshit sentiments doesn’t change that (not by you btw).  By Israel I mean their government.
 

Now before @Tumblerseven tries to rally villatalk against me again for I don’t even know what, let me be clear.

These accusations are also coming from Jewish people from within Israel - and in fact are the loudest voices making these accusations. 
 

Also let me be quite frank here, I don’t ‘need’ to do anything any more than @Awol ‘needs’  to answer my question about what the only civilised response to the blockade of water to Gaza is.  Any more than @Tumblerseven ‘needs’ to retract his statement that not everyone is entitled to governing their own country.  Or any of them ‘need’ to condemn the war crimes being committed by Israel.

Im quite happy to do the appropriate condemning off of my own back.  And if I wish to condemn the Israeli government for refusing to negotiate the release of its citizens, then I’m absolutely entitled to do so.  I already condemned Hamas for taking them - before @Tumblerseven gets too excited.  Feel free to search my posts with regards to my feelings about the terror attacks that kicked all this shit off.

1 minute ago, limpid said:

If we're going to be pedantic, then it is only a matter of tradition / party rules that a party elects it's leader. There is no requirement for the selection of a party leader to be the result of a ballot.

There you go, I was even more wrong than I thought I was wrong.

And as promised, I apologise once again for leading the masses astray.

In my defence, how was I supposed to know that, when even the constitution of the party makes it look like it’s a thing?

I would love to know the full details  of how the electoral system works?

https://public.conservatives.com/organisation-department/202101/Conservative Party Constitution as amended January 2021.pdf

Quote

page 3, part III LEADERSHIP
‘’there shall be a leader….who is elected by the party members..”

@LondonLax @Tumblerseven

Hamas official interview confirmed the offer.

@LondonLax I hope you see I was not posturing any particular framing.  However. Having read your previous comments I am happy that your posts have not been biased and your comment was one of genuine concern. so I shall just leave it there.
 

you may argue that you don’t believe them.

But not even willing to trade 1 hour of ceasefire to test it out?

Really?

10 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

tbf, i would propose that American journalists are some of the least reputable and truthful out there, if they told me the sky was blue i would make sure to look outside and check if it were true for myself.

 

Oh I know that, and you know that…

8 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

yesterday i gave my opinion about the conflict solution pretty clearly you can find it i believe in you.

@Thug where is that video?

oh don’t you worry, I’ll find that video for you.. and then you will apologise, and admit that the Israeli government are not putting the hostages first.  

29 minutes ago, Thug said:

Woah, that was reported by an American news channel.

not my framing.

let me find the YouTube video 

And what is it with you and your obsession with trying to catch me out?

Ive said a million times the hostages need to be released.  Hell, they  shouldn’t have been taken in the first place.  

I want them released. As soon as possible, without conditions.

No doubt Hamas put conditions on their release, but the Israeli side have so far refused to negotiate.  
 

There have been Israeli officials on tv That have quite clearly stated they will not negotiate with terrorists.

What framing did I use?

not the exact video I was referring to, which I shall continue to look for

around the 2:35 minute mark:

Quote

We heard from the head of the national Security Council of Israel today that are not and will not be any negotiations…

American reporter before you start debunking it.

6 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

i dont understand why people not calling this stuff out in this forum. I really dont... you should be shamed like actually you are copy of that momo person or whatever who straight up used lies and propaganda until i came and called them out.

Wow

ive seen this tactic somewhere before… not quite sure where…. 

4 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

hamas offered to release them and israeli have refused?

Dude your framing is actually wild its disgusting. 

 

 

Woah, that was reported by an American news channel.

not my framing.

let me find the YouTube video 

And what is it with you and your obsession with trying to catch me out?

Ive said a million times the hostages need to be released.  Hell, they  shouldn’t have been taken in the first place.  

I want them released. As soon as possible, without conditions.

No doubt Hamas put conditions on their release, but the Israeli side have so far refused to negotiate.  
 

There have been Israeli officials on tv That have quite clearly stated they will not negotiate with terrorists.

What framing did I use?

Just now, LondonLax said:

I’m not sure if you actually believe what you have written here but if you do it possibly reveals more about your prejudices regarding the Israeli government than anything else.

Which bit?

1 minute ago, LondonLax said:

The point is the pictures of kidnapped children are a form of propaganda. There is nothing anyone in London can do to find them, putting up missing persons posters has not been done by their relatives. The purpose is not about the individuals in the poster, they are there to maintain sympathy for the Israeli cause.

They know where they are.

Hamas have offered to release them.

The Israeli government have refused this offer.

The release of the hostages is the polar opposite of what they want.  They are desperate for the hostages to die in captivity so that they can use that as an excuse to continue the bombardment.

stick the posters up on the Israeli embassy wall where they can be seen by the people that can actually bring them home.

Just now, bickster said:

Prime Ministers aren’t elected in this country. Repeating this nonsense just gives people the wrong impression of the current system

if you’re going to be pedantic, then so am I.

The party that forms government is usually the one that wins the election, with its leader being APPOINTED as prime minister.

The leader of the party is ELECTED by members of the party.

Ergo: Prime ministers ARE elected in this country.

So don’t repeat your nonsense. Next time please clarify which electorate you are referring to avoid people getting the wrong impression of the voting system.

Less pedantic answer:

The last two prime ministers were not APPOINTED by the residing monarch after the PARTY THEY REPRESENTED had won a controlling majority number of seats in a general election with its present leader in office.

I apologise whole-heartedly to anyone that read my nonsense and was ready to take up arms against the establishment.

I wrongly gave the impression that the leader of a political party has an influence on voting patterns.  I was wrong to suggest that if a political party wins an ELECTION that the natural progression from the result of this election would be the said leader of said party being appointed prime minister.  It is entirely possible that the monarch may choose not to do this.  

I was therefore incorrect to suggest that they would have been Elected into office.  The correct way to have said this would have been to say that prime minister had been APPOINTED into the role after being ELECTED as leader of their party and then the party to have won the election whilst this person was in charge of the party.

Hell, I may even be wrong about what I wrote above, but I’m sure I’ll soon find out, and apologise for it too.

we cool now?

7 minutes ago, bickster said:

One of the last two didn't really have time to say Ackee 1 2 3

Neither of last 2 were elected.

The one before that had his opposition labelled as a psychopath not worthy or able to rule.

oh the irony. 
 

1 minute ago, magnkarl said:

Just out of interest, do you have a source for this claim about the pictures tore down being propaganda and not actual kidnapped children? 

I don’t think he said they ‘were’ propganda.

He was referring to the perception of it being propaganda.  Can’t really produce evidence without asking the perpetrator to explain their thoughts at the time

Just now, chrisp65 said:

 

They were offering free meals for IDF personnel.

 

Apparently had cut off all food, water and fuel supply so McDonalds heroically stepped in.

Shame on those people asking for a boycott.

15 minutes ago, Awol said:

This has been a fascinating insight into how someone reasons themselves into morally bankrupt actions.

Putting up posters of kidnapped children - even British children - in public is propaganda because it makes Hamas, the terrorist Government of Gaza, look bad. 

Propaganda is a form of Information Warfare. 

Therefore, tearing down posters is fighting against Israeli Information Warfare and supporting the Palestinians.

In Britain, tearing down posters of kidnapped British children is resistance against Israel and fighting for Palestine. 

I thought it was irrational hate, but at least now I understand how those people got to that place in their heads. 

What is TRULY fascinating is those that support Israel seem to exhibit the same self centred beliefs of the country itself.  They will do everything to highlight there own suffering, but refuse to acknowledge anyone else’s no matter how many more times horrific it may be.

Ripping posters off a wall:  the only civilised response is to find it sickening.

when asked about the civilised response to cutting off water supply to 2m.people?

Silence.

There is an inherent racism in the way some posters make their posts.  Ripping posters from walls should be condemned and is uncivilised.  Cutting water supplies you ignore and champion.

I have no respect for anyone that does not value life, and people are showing themselves for what they are.

will you answer?
 

What the ONLY civilised response to someone cutting off water supplies to 2m people is before you start judging the moral bankruptcy of others?

Thank you. Let’s see if you ignore it for a second time.

23 minutes ago, Awol said:

The only reaction a civilised person can have. 

Agreed. 

what is the only civilised reaction a person can have to water being cut off to 2 million people?

21 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

Well let me explain. I was talking with thug about Israels legitimate threats.  I named every neighboring country to Israel and posted their all population numbers all those countries dont want israel existing. Israel population is 9million neighboring countries 153million.

Thug completely ignored that legitimate threat to Israel. And said that its a walk in a park for Israel to defeat all those countries and he wanted to focus on military budget. I said hold on those 153 million countries can use war of attrition. He laughed again and said utter nonsense its not WW1. 

So the question if all neighboring countries would attack Israel at the same time would war of attrition contribute to the wars outcome? i think the answer is very clear yes.

He Thug disingenuously asked you would you consider this war the war of attrition and tried to pretend that we are talking about this war. I saw what he asked you and i wanted to correct the question.

That’s a lot of angry countries. 153 million countries.  I’d still hedge my bets israel would smash 153 million countries. No attrition needed.