Alec

This is, I feel, an important point and one that shouldn't deter supporters from notions of protest. In other circumstances, fans would be rightly accused of impatience and unrealistic expectations to be taking against a manager so soon and to such an extent - but our televised matches so far this season have offered ample evidence of why we didn't want McLeish in the first place and why we have no desire to give him any more time in the role. Journalists, pundits and preenters alike have all been vocally critical to the point where there even seems to be growing sympathy among the national press for Villa fans - something that I never thought I'd see. Lerner and Faulkner won't act of their own volition so we as supporters need to make life as uncomfortable as possible for all concerned until action is taken. And I say that as someone who is normally quite conservative when it comes to these things and was prepared to give him a chance to prove people wrong. But my anger and frustration is just building and buolding with every visit to VP this season and I can't shake the feeling that I've been well and truly conned out of my money when I purchased my season ticket (which was before the sales of both Young and Downing).

North Stand - Villa. Holte End - Villa. Trinity Road - Villa. Doug Ellis Stand - Villa. Home dug-out - Blues.

What if...Scarlett Johanssen personally offers to escort me to the match with the promise of a night of untold pleasure at the Hyatt to follow? Because that, frankly, sounds more likely at this point.

To be honest, I said I would't be getting mine the day that mcLeish was appointed- but then I relented having convinced myself that it may not be that bad and that there could be positives to look forward to after the debacle of Houllier. I genuinely did think there was a chance that McLeish could at the very least get the team back to the well-organised, hard-working counter-attacking outfit that O'Neill produced. After all, even with the departed players, we still have the personnel to do that. It may be old-fashioned and not the best towatch but it could be effective. I also thought that he would be so determined to prove everyone wrong that he would work night and day to show he was more than just a damage-limitation manager capable of setting up teams to defend. The reality has so far proved that this was all little more than blind hope. The football is awful, the atmosphere flat and it is generally an unpleasant and frustrating experience going on matchdays at present. Next summer, there will be no decisions made based on any such hopes. If McLeish is still here we will know exactly what we are getting and I have a feeling that a lot of people will decide that they don't want to part with their money. The Club gambled on the fact that most die-hard supporters can't bear the thought of turning their back on the simple ritual of going. This is, to my mindm, what accounts for our still reasonable attendances this season. I think next summer will be the ultimate litmus test that will show exactly how much patience remains for being treated in such a cynical manner. If changes aren't made, I shan't renew and I will be writing to Paul Faulkner to tell him exactly why.

If Randy Lerner is prepared to correct the huge mistake of appointing McLeish and demonstrate a far superior understanding of the Club, its supporters and football in general by identifying and securing the services of an appropriate replacement, then I am happy for him to remain. If not, then I see no future under his stewardship. The fact is that since Martin O'Neill left, the amount of decision-making that he and Paul Faulkner were shielded from during their first years in charge has been brought into sharp focus by the utter ineptitude demonstrated by every key decision they have been responsible for. To outisde observers, it looks very much as though Lerner came in, had a good go at breaking into the Champions League and lost heart after a couple of respectable near-misses. Tottenham have shown that you don't necessarily need to match the spending power of Manchester City (or even Liverpool) to establish yourself as real contenders - but you do need fierce, unwavering ambition and the acumen to make the right appointments and decisions that ensure the right expertise is in place throughout the Club. Manchester City have changed things, but their wealth has not dictated that everyone else must simply pack up and go home. Unfortunately, this appears to be exactly what Lerner has done though.

The sad truth about last night's defeat is that is was all too reminiscent of those numerous occasions last season when Houllier sent out a team that looked beaten before the referee blew the first whistle. And like those worst days under Houllier, the players looked just as listless, disinterested and devoid of anything resembling belief. Everyone always knew that McLeish would have his limitations, but many of us expected that at the very least any set of eleven players he sends out on a matchday would be well-organised and prepared to fight. The reality is that this doesn't happen and it now appears that we are left with the worst of both regimes - defensively poor, weak in possession, devoid of creativity, no leadership. On OR off the pitch. The players clearly recognise this just as much as the fans do. And they know that when their manager sends them out with a right-back in one of the winger positions when he's struggling to find any degree of form in his natural role that they are playing for someone that has no confidence in their individual or collective ability to take on the opposition. Last night didn't feel all that removed from the white-flag waving attitude of last season's FA Cup exit to Man City or O'Neill's Europa League capitulation in Moscow back in 2009. I feel like I've come full circle since the summer. I vehemently did not want Alex McLeish to be appointed and railed against the decision. I then accepted it and decided to give him a chance to prove the doubters wrong having been impressed by his generally honest, straight-talking approach. I tried to find positives in the early weeks of the season and encouraged others to see the benefit of an unbeaten start as being something to build upon. But with the high volume of underwhelming draws becoming increasingly frustrating, patience started to wear thin and ever since that woeful defeat to Bolton in the League Cup, the team shape, selection and performances have been almost uniformly dire. The inexcapable fact is that we play some of, if not the outright, worst football in the Premier League and when I think back on when I ultimately turned on McLeish, it will probably be the moment I saw Alan Hutton lining up on the right wing when orthodox wide players were available for selection. The fact that he still didn't even see fit to make any changes to a system that had led to us going two goals down at the break only serves to reinforce the impression that he has absolutely no idea of how to set up a team that needs to take a game to the opposition. I feel like our curren eighth place standing in the League is due more to the ineptitude of the dozen teams below us than anything we have 'achieved' this season, and I can see nothing but apathy spreading among our supporters who simply expect underperformance for as long as McLeish is in charge.

His chief attributes are his athleticism, his tackling and his composure in possession - all things severely lacking in the Villa midfield for quite some time. He may not be the finished article but he doesn't look out of his depth at all and if he continues to play, I can see him growing into a key player to build around. His covering play at times on Saturday was excellent and he really picked up the slack and took responsibility for protecting the back four in the latter stages after Petrov had to go off. His composure in possession and his ability to play the right, simple pass already has him ahead of Delph (on this season's form)/

Played well today - terrific goal and excellent delivery for the second. If he could only produce both more often... Generally very good performance though - we know he's not the long-term answer but he's still one of the few players we can at loeats rely on to play with some heart and determination for the cause.

The football is equally bad. Although last season we came here and lost 1-0 when we had Downing and Young in the team.

Playing Heskey in his favoured position rarely sees him producing good performances. Playing him out of position, as we have so far done under McLeish, is resulting in displays of technical ineptitude I didn't think were possible at this level. He is so visibly uncomfortable on the ball, capable only of the shortest, simplest passes (and his inability to even get one of these right today led to Sunderland's first equaliser), cannot cross, cannot shoot. His only asset is his brute force which occasionally assists from a defensive point of view - and no doubt is why McLeish is so keen to keep him in the team - but for large portions of matches, we carry him. There were alternatives for midfield today, and all would've been preferable to Heskey. Delph could've been used in the centre, we could have started Albrighton in a straight 4-4-2 and pushed Agbonlahor up front from the outset, Ireland could've been given another chance as Heskey currently occupies his favoured posiion (and, yes, I agree he has not done enough when selected, but no more or less than Emile), even Ciaran Clark aquits himself perfectly well when asked to play in midfield. All are better footballers than Heskey so I would personally prefer to see any of them selected ahead of him.

The good news from today's game is that Sunderland are so bad you can't seriously worry too much about Villa at the moment, however depressing things may currently be. In fact, the bottom of the league (Blackburn, Bolton, Wigan) currently look so inept that we are still some way clear of falling into a genuinely dangerous situation. December is going to be brutal though and I just hope we don't end up paying the price for squandering so many points during the first quarter of the season where we had what will be by far the kindest run of fixtures we are likely to see until the summer. The fact that we are in the top half of the league, despite being so poor, tells you all you need to know about "the best league in the world".

You've got to say at times in the second half we actually looked quite decent and should have scored a second goal much sooner than we did (people can bemoan our general lack of creativity but Darren Bent really has to start putting away more chances than he's currently missing). Other positives include N'Zogbia looking lively, Petrov played well, and Herd looks like a prospect worth persisting with in a central midfield role. The failure to defend set-pieces is unforgivable though because I thought this might be one of the few benefits of having McLeish in charge. If he can't do better than this from a defensive standpoint, it's a very depressing state of affairs. Equally poor is the decision to keep Heskey on the pitch once he had reverted to 4-4-2 and push Agbonlahor up front. The amount of times in the second half we kept moving the ball to the left only for nobody to take the responsibility for puttinga cross in was a joke at this level. It's debatable how much Heskey offers at the best of times, but he can't contribute anything out wide and I can only summise that his brute force when defending set-plays (which seems laughable in and of itself) is the only reason McLeish doesn't withdraw him and the manager has to take a lot of blame for why we haven't won today. Sunderland are incredibly poor and this match was there for the taking. McLeish's reluctance to switch to 4-4-2 with real conviction, which would have entailed putting a winger on the left rather than pushing Heskey out there, just demonstrates his conservatism and if you continually set up a team with this attitude, you don't deserve to win. Make no mistake, this was two points dropped, not a point gained. Much like the QPR match, Villa just don't look capable of seeing out games where there is only a one goal margin. Conceding these late equalisers time and time again with no discernible evidence that anything is being done about it is a shocking indictment of the coaching at the club. There is no excuse for the smallest player on the pitch popping up in your own six yard box to head home an equaliser from a free-kick in the last minute of game you are winning. It has to be said that the lack of focus, organisation and resolve is suddenly looking no better than it was under Houllier.

The Zog is looking much better on a positive note. Much more like the player he was at Wigan. Let's hope he breaks his scoring duck in the second half.

Their equaliser was all about the fact McLeish is persevering with Heskey in a role he shouldn't be anywhere near. Failure to complete a simple pass and the lead is frittered away.

My question with this is - and I'm not saying I overtly disagree with your sentiments - does McLeish have the personal ambition to build a side that can challenge for anything rather than simply maintaining the status quo? Although he had to live with certain expectations at Rangers (some of which he met, some of which he failed to deliver), when you manage the likes of Scotland or the Blues, your primary mandate is damage limitation. With the absence of serious backing from the owner, I'm not sure McLeish has the mentality to achieve anything more. He may ultimately come to be best viewed as a custodian for team affairs until the overall situation changes, bringing enough stability that keeps us clear of the relegation mire but without the drive or quality to take the Club above upper-mid table. In this regard, he will likely prove a more reliable bet than his predecessor - and less prone to the kind of public gaffs that made the Club a soap opera last season - but performances such as last night's or Saturday's are foreboding warnings that even this should not be taken for granted.

Well, I suppose even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Who would you say didnt put the effort in? I thought our worst player (by a distance) was Albrighton, but I wouldnt say that he lacked effort. The only players I'd possibly level that at would be Delfouneso and possibly Hutton. To be brutally honest, I would only excuse Given (not a lot he could've done), Collins, Bannan and Agbonlahor as far as effort goes - and I thought the latter three still played poorly. I won't say that there was no effort at all from others, but I don't think you could argue that maximum was given. Ireland looked intermittently interested but when he wasn't, he tip-toed around and didn't, to my mind, put a full shift in. I actually had some sympathy for Delfouneso as, though he was poor, he was stranded completely out of position and the central players continually failed to move the ball out to either flank with any efficiency or accuracy. Again, he could've done more to impose himself though. But, on the whole, the entire team did not play like a group of players that desperately wanted to stay in this competition. They took their beating lying down - and in the words of Vito Corleone, that I do not forgive.

What an absurd comment. There was barely a hint of disagreement when N'Zogbia was signed that he was not the best available option to us to replace one of Young or Downing. Few would have described him as being better than or equal to the players that departed, but he had a very good season last term and was as highly rated as any target within our reach was likely to be. I also believe that whether McLeish was manager or not, anyone else taking on the role would likely have pinpointed the player in the same circumstances. He has been poor so far, but there's no reason why he will not come good and there were far worse culprits last night.

Didn't Graham Taylor essentially say those very words before England took on the USA in a friendly match shortly before failing to qualify for the World Cup in '94? They were subsequently beaten 2-0. Players should take more responsibility, but they also need to be led. They are not jazz musicians that can riff with new bandmates on pure instinct - they have been told what to do and where to go the entire length of their careers, and they need instruction and motivation. I will never excuse a lack of effort - and I think it's fair to say there were a few who could not exactly claim to have given everything they had to give last night and deserve to be criticised accordingly - but the lack of leadership on and off the pitch is why performances such as this occur.

One thing that is bothering me at the moment as much as Randy Lerner's continuing absence in the alarming number of empty seats in the director's section of the Trinity Road stand. I appreciate that attendances are down across the board, and there are pockets of empty seats right throughout our ground on matchday, but these seats are directly opposite the TV cameras and there are more that are empty than filled (a bit like the corporate areas either side of the tunnel at Wembley which is always embarrassingly empty when the second half kicks off as people slowly return from the prawn sandwich buffet). I don't pretend to know the full basis on which these seats are allocated - aquaintances of directors or other Club personnel? Sponsors and their guests? - but the fact that the Club is struggling to fill an area which I assume is otherwise oversubscribed at many other Premier League grounds is yet another failing of the Club's overall management. Am I also right in thinking that a portion of these seats were previously available to supporters before the director's section was expanded during Lerner's second/third year here? I seem to remember there were season ticket holders in the middle section of the stand that had to give up seats when this news was announced so I assume that this was where they were moved from. Perhaps the fact that corporate options were expanded to increase revenue and that these seats are remaining consistently unclaimed may be more alarming to Mr. Lerner than the absent supporters that have so far stayed away this season.

Amazing how this thread suddenly sees posters swaying back toward Houllier - a manager who completely threw the last Cup game he was in charge for. The bottom line is that just as nobody wanted Houllier, nobody wanted McLeish - and with plenty of good reason on both counts. I have tried to see the virtue in what McLeish has tried to do since he arrived and could see some encouraging signs during the first couple of games. Things are looking increasingly bleak though now we're a few weeks into the season, and last night was appalling. There is simply no defence for it. But I have zero faith that we wouldn't have seen the very same performance with Houllier in charge. Perhaps the most frustrating thing as a Villa supporter at the moment is that such a thread as this exists; Houllier of McLeish? Talk about the lesser of two evils.

I have to say that throughout the events of recent months, I have tended to agree with your measured posts and balanced views, but in this instane, the Villa fans were badly let down and the only people who should be embarrassed are the players, McLeish and the board - all of whom I believe are culpable for a performance that felt like the inevitable result of too much mis-management and growing disinterest from the top right the way through the Club to those on the pitch. I have tried to see reason in some of the decision-making and thought there were actually some encouraging signs that McLeish might just perform above the low expectations that many have formed of him since his appointment, but from the Hereford match onwards, the quality has been poor and the failure to get even the basics right is alarming. I don't believe that booing during a match is of any help to us whatsoever, and in fairness to the Villa fans last night, they did their best to stay with the team (especially in the lower Holte - respect to the pocket of supporters in the rear corner on the Doug Ellis side of the stand in particular who never stopped singing throughout) but the players, manager and what few board members bothered to turn up deserve to feel the full brunt of the mounting frustration that is a direct response to the unacceptable level of performance we are seeing - and whilst I try to stay clear of overly sensationalistic proclamations and fully acknowledge that this will sound like an overreaction, I can genuinely say I've never seen a worse home performance by a Villa team. If McLeish is unable to conjure up a couple of decent wins int he coming weeks, I can see things turning very nasty around VP.

Absolutely dire from start to finish. Tactically poor, players out of position, no creativity, no leadership - on or off the pitch. There were boos at the end but, to be honest, McLeish and the players were let off lightly after such an abject, pitiful display. I've defended McLeish since his arrival, mainly because of the lack of backing he's received from the board, but he has to shoulder a good portion of the blame for a performance like that. There seemed to be no game plan, no one to pull the team together when they went a goal down, no movement, no urgency. Truly one of the worst home performances I've seen by Villa in over twenty years of going. Unacceptable.

The rot is setting into Bent and N'Zogbia's brains...The more games that continue in defensive mode, the more the rot escualtes...It turns great attacking players into cabbages. That is down to the manager! Your a strange chap aint ya? So how about Chelsea's current and past manager, they set the rot in Torres's head to miss a sitter? Torres wasnt performing at Liverpool before the move to Chelsea..N'Zogbia has come to Villa on the back of good form. The rot has set in to our attacking players because McLeish plays negative tactics..The longer you go on without being effective and without scoring, the worse you get...Its the same with Dunne last season, his form was down to mentality, not that he became a bad player overnight. And the tactics McLeish plays gets Defenders playing full of confidence and attacking players start to lose confidence.. Good attacking football breeds confidence into attacking players..We dont play good attacking football..We play good defensive football, hence breeds good defensive play. Yes the manager is responsible for this..He decides on the tactical play.. So far this season, our best player by general concensus has been an attacker - Agbonlahor - who looks significantly better and far more confident than he ever did during last season. I don't know how much of an impact McLeish has had on him personally, but maybe he deserves some of the credit for Agbonlahor's re-emergence. Generally speaking though, I tend to think that players need to take more responsibility for themselves and neither Bent and espeically N'Zogbia are currently doing enough to play their way out of bad form. Bent is getting chances but he's not putting them away - I'm not overly concerned about this as he's always been this way and he will no doubt be banging them in again shortly - and N'Zogbia has had the ball in threatening positions in every game so far this season and his final pass/cross/shot has been woeful. He looks like a player that needs to start focussing on his own technique before anything else.

Top priority - there's no threat of relegation and no chance of challenging for Champions League qualification. We, as a Club and a fanbase, NEED silverware and this the best chance of winning some. I take exception to any attempt to weaken the side for any match in this competition frankly - we should approach these League Cup games as if they were our biggest of the season.