desensitized43

Israel has national service so that’s not really surprising is it? I guess that means you’ll argue those people were legit targets.

I dunno man, middle earth is totally more **** up. I mean, the race of men just stole all the land from the orcs at some unspecified starting point in history so they’re totally within their rights to go and kill as many of them as possible to take it back.

Give up mate. You’re arguing with people who believe that can’t be reasoned with. They’ve already made up their minds that it’s fine for the Palestinian terrorist organisations to kill people with no consequence because their cause is somehow so just that it gives them the right.

You got to feel for those poor United fans though. They grew up in the 90s and were used to being massive words removed to all the other kids who supported their local family teams. This isn’t what they signed up for. They’re the superior ones who aren’t supposed to lose. They shouldn’t have to be the butt of every football joke.

So every leader of the opposition or equivalent has backed unilateral ceasefire? Of course mate.

Damn right it does. Can you handle another 5 years of this? Never mind what's happening in lands thousands of miles away, we have a country that is literally falling down around us because the government we have are populated by self serving talentless hacks who I wouldn't put in charge of running a school disco let alone the country. I think the Tories are capable of much more than you give them credit for. There's a reason they've been the governing party for something like 80% of the last century and it's because they're utterly ruthless and are backed by a multibillion pound right wing press machine that's looking for any excuse to tear a chunk off the other guys. But yeah, let's go saying all kinds of shit and lose the election so that a bunch of Palestinians (the ones who still have access to any sort of media) can feel like the leader of the UK opposition, who they couldn't name or pick out of a lineup, cares about them, even if his warm words have no tangible effect to their lives on the ground. Good one.

He's made the case for restraint, he's made the case for pauses in the fighting and for more aid to be allowed in. Him calling for something is not worth a damn thing. What good is him calling for a ceasefire which will just fall completely on deaf ears. It won't even be reported in Israel and be immediately jumped on by the right wing press and Tories at home to try and split off some of the voters. It's your opinion that he will win next year regardless but it's not fact. It could be 12 months before an election and a lot can happen between now and then. His priority has to be, as should everyone who isn't a massive piece of shit, getting the Tories out so the country and can get some change and start to rebuild after the absolute shower we've had the last 13 years. The Tories want "wedge issues" they can use, don't give it to them. There's literally nothing he can do to stop what's going on, nothing at all. Maybe if/when he's PM then is in a position to do something but the leader of the opposition has no power other than to **** themselves by saying things that will lose them the next election. That's unfortunate for the Palestinian people, but I'm afraid that's just the way it is.

I’d guess because despite you’re assertion that the next election is a done deal, it’s not a done deal and a massive part of middle England they’re hoping to deny to the Tories at the next election will feel much more an affinity to the Israeli side than with hamas or the general Palestinian side. It’s vastly unlikely that those who have more sympathy to the Palestinian side are going to vote Tory so it’s a (admittedly very cynical) political calculation. The right wing press want him to fall into the trap so they can make it a wedge issue, bring up Corbyn at every opportunity and accuse labour of more good old fashioned Jew hating. Lots of people foaming at the mouth because he hasn’t used some words you’d like won’t change the situation. Even if he came out and said what you want him to say it wouldn’t change the situation on the ground in Gaza or Israel but it will change the situation here for the worse because it’ll make an unlikely tory victory more likely.

I must admit, hearing the terms Cummings used to describe ministers in the middle of the day, uncensored, is pretty shocking. "f**kpigs" "words removed" It really speaks to the kind of characters Johnson surrounded himself with that someone would use that language...even if he's probably not factually incorrect.

I agree 100% which is why my instinct has always been that we and other countries need to support Israel (within reason) and ensure it's many enemies cannot wipe it off the map as they tried to do many times in it's early existence because given the means they wouldn't hesistate. The only reason they haven't tried again is because we've armed them to the teeth and the US would intervene but the moment we weaken on that resolve there's a massive problem. I know this will probably be a pretty controversial opinion, but I do think from what I've seen and heard that there's a very sizable number of Muslims, some of whom live in the UK, who'd be quite happy to see Israel and it's people wiped out. That's not to say all Muslims feel that way, but I think there's a lot. Sorry, I hate that kind of generalisation and I know it's going to get some flack but it's my opinion.

I guess the difference is one side has the means to do it and the other side just has the will.

War has always been pretty good for business and very good for burying your domestic bad news. Internal issues with the Chinese economy to my mind make it more likely they'll try something.

I don’t think any of this is arguable. The issue has always been defining the borders of said states. Especially when Israel has been busy allowing its people to settle in areas they know are illegal and you’ve got idiot people singing about “from the river to the sea” nonsense that is basically code for you know what.

This guy has elevated so many of the players who had either stagnated or were going backwards before he arrived. McGinn, Digne, Watkins, Konsa all come to mind. They’ve all gone to levels I either didn’t think they were capable of or didn’t have the right conditions to reach.

Relevance? People have the right to move positions when new information comes to light. I was very much of the opinion that Israel is an apartheid regime that's essentially kettled a bunch of people into open air prisons but nothing can justify what Hamas have done. What's happened has gone far in excess of what's acceptable when trying to fight for your right to a bit of land to call yours. It's mindless brutality and I'm afraid there's a lot on here who are so willing to explain away this as a bunch of people who have been pushed into it by the actions of Israel.

I await the inevitable responses of “it’s propaganda and can’t be trusted and must be a mossad fakery” from the truly deranged and the “well what about what Israel have been doing for years” from those that are misguided terrorist apologists.

I genuinely hope that ref goes home to find his Mrs in bed with another man.

Nothing. The electorate has monumentally turned and stopped listening to them. When Sunak stood up and tried to portray himself as the “change candidate” that was the giveaway. They focus group everything and they’ve clearly had the feedback that the electorate want change, which they do, so they’re desperately and cynically acting like the last 13 years are nothing to do with them and the next 13 they’ll do things differently while showing nothing in their actions to indicate they’re capable of that.

Complete nonsense. They’ve gone to some lengths to prewarn Palestinians in the target areas of an impending strike. If they had wanted to wipe the Palestinians from the map they have more than enough capability to do that in a couple of days. Im not saying they are doing everything right - cutting off the water, power and food is pretty inexcusable but to say they don’t want to save the hostages as some kind of pretext to go in harder sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Surely that's only partially true. They want the hostages released sure, but they also want to degrade Hamas to the point that it won't happen again. They're also playing to their own politics here as well. Any government that is seen to be unable to protects it's people won't be in power for long.

It’s unbelievable really that a doctor would choose to work in a hospital knowing there were hamas roaming around the place firing off rockets and storing explosives on the premises.

In a hospital!?

Then why is your first reaction to say "well Israel did x"? Is there any justification in your mind for someone to enter someones home and behead their children?

Whataboutism just makes it look like you’re trying to excuse or justify it. Are you?

Frankly the stuff I’ve heard this morning about what Hamas insurgents did to children I wouldn’t be shocked if Israel went and carpet bombed Gaza. Beheading babies? There’s no excuse for that regardless of how angry and “pushed” you are. Obviously you need to try and have restraint but there’s some things that are so vile that they won’t be inclined to mercy and let’s be honest, after that who can really blame them. What hamas have done is truly revolting.