drat01 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Nice analogy blandy. Perhaps a better one would have been an elephant in a room Auld Gordon and his pals still wouldn't see it mind Ahh the old Tory English only jibe sneaking it's way in. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa_Rosa Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Nice analogy blandy. Perhaps a better one would have been an elephant in a room Auld Gordon and his pals still wouldn't see it mind Ahh the old Tory English only jibe sneaking it's way in. :-( How very dare you! If you've read my posts you'll know I'm not a Tory - never have been, never will. I used to be Labour before they were Tory. Big fan of Tony Benn as it happens. And I'm not entirely English either You clutch at those straws though. And keep arguing about semantics and being mesmerized by the spinning pocket watch that swings from the clunking fist. I've had enough. Like many others, I have now seen whats at the other end of it. Someone who bottled an election, and is now bottling a promised referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Santa - you could be a Mail reporter with rhetoric like that As for Tony Benn yep got a lot of time for him and Dennis Skinner et al. Living where I do you actually get to see and hear what they said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa_Rosa Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 you could be a Mail reporter with rhetoric like that Or a Guardian columnist it seems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 31, 2007 Moderator Share Posted October 31, 2007 If you know what it means, then how on earth can you say that the statement [The inquiry by the House of Lords European Union Committee will involve seven sub-committees taking evidence and questioning witnesses in detail on the issues covered by the Treaty, which replaces the failed EU Constitution."] about the inquiry shows the two things are not the same? it does nothing of the sort. Sorry Pete it does... Sorry to repeat the point, but I just don't see it, or understand why you you hold that quote as proof/confirmation of anything to do with similarity or difference. I'm genuinely baffled. I'm pretty pro Europe I think, but I just feel that the gist of what I've read about this thing from various countries is that it is basically a very slightly tweaked version of the original thing. The changes are very very minimal as far as the information available reveals. It's just a fig leaf of a name change so that the vain politicians of various countries, including Holland and Denmark can try again to get it past their sceptical electorates, one way or another. Britain too. Because the substance of the content of it isn't discussed or really aired I have no idea whether it is a largely good thing, or a largely bad thing -more bloated beurocracy. There's dishonesty from many politicians in many countries, there's dishonesty in bringing back a rejected thing, again, because the people didn't authorise the politicians to go down that road (in holland, Denmark etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 I think this says all we need to know about the revised treaty , written bysomeone who has read it Once enforced, there will quite simply be no more significant powers left solely with the governments of the member states, and outside the orbit of the EU's formal institutions. But for the UK, with its unique global links and lack of sympathy with the highly regulated and protectionist EU model, increasing political and economic integration can only be to its disadvantage in the rapidly changing world of the 21st Century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 I think this says all we need to know about the revised treaty , written bysomeone who has read it Once enforced, there will quite simply be no more significant powers left solely with the governments of the member states, and outside the orbit of the EU's formal institutions. But for the UK, with its unique global links and lack of sympathy with the highly regulated and protectionist EU model, increasing political and economic integration can only be to its disadvantage in the rapidly changing world of the 21st Century.Who has supposedly read it then Tony? I am constantly told it has not been translated yet but places like the BBC and all of the Tory led media are seemingly saying things about it? No mention about opt outs or "red lines" I notice, why is that then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 I'm not sure where you are getting your "no one has read it " view from .. think someone may have mislead you in a post A first draft has been circulated and can be read in French and in English people can argue about mice , men ,elephants or whatever else they choose to spice up /amuse their arguement .. the practical outcome of both treaties is pretty much the same and we all know what happened to it last time ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Tony - I know there has been a draft but I keep getting told in this thread it hasn't so I am confused :wink: There are fundamental differences between the two, hence they are NOT the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 31, 2007 Moderator Share Posted October 31, 2007 There are fundamental differences between the two, hence they are NOT the same what are the differences (and what are the bits that are the same)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Yes the gvt are honour bound to give us a referendum as that is what they promised and as the document inquestion has beenwidely recognised as the same, then we should have a referendum. Unfortunately this govt has no honour so the concept of them being honour bound doesn't really exist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 So the Lib Dems see it as different. The Czech government have said it is different. Even Slap Head Hague has not said a referendum is a good idea. ( http://tinyurl.com/36qs28 ) Maybe a political basis behind the moans could be hilighted by "quips" like this http://tinyurl.com/2umvc8 "The opt-outs, which Mr Brown referred to as "red lines", were in areas such as human rights, tax and benefits, foreign policy and justice. Jose Manuel Barroso Mr Barroso said a "broadly agreed" EU treaty would be a good outcome The prime minister said that if these made the final draft of the treaty, it would avoid any significant transfer of power to Brussels. "I've been determined that Britain will continue to decide in justice and home affairs - and I believe that the detailed changes that are being made with the opt-in for Britain in this area protect the British national interests," Mr Brown said at a news conference in the Portuguese capital before the deal was reached. "On foreign affairs and security matters, it is important for us that Britain can decide, and that's why we have been determined that foreign policy remains inter-governmental and decisions are made by unanimity. "On social security, we have been determined that there is an emergency break - and in some cases a veto - so that decisions are made in the interests of Britain." " plus "The constitution attempted to replace all earlier EU treaties and start afresh, whereas the new treaty amends the Treaty on the European Union (Maastricht) and the Treaty Establishing the European Community (Rome)." - Now contained in them are some pretty significant peices of Europe Legislation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gringo Posted October 31, 2007 Author Share Posted October 31, 2007 Tony - I know there has been a draft but I keep getting told in this thread it hasn't so I am confused :wink:For the disadvantaged - a question was asked with regards to who on here had read the treaty and could comment on the similarities or differences. It was pointed out that the treaty won't be released until all the translations have been completed. Can you download a copy of the final treaty? Would you sign up to a draft of a contract? Bizarre -It's all bluff and bluster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 ..........? Bizarre -It's all bluff and bluster.said the three little piggies http://tinyurl.com/3e55fv http://tinyurl.com/334qkh http://tinyurl.com/2nzxjb http://tinyurl.com/2lb2cp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gringo Posted October 31, 2007 Author Share Posted October 31, 2007 ..........? Bizarre -It's all bluff and bluster.said the three little piggies Well done - I stand corrected, I thought no official documents were to be released until all translations had been completed - but as I said, all bluff and bluster. Seeing as you have copies of the documents you will now be able to point out to the rest of us what the major differences in content are to what was proposed in the previous treaty? Even Slap Head Hague has not said a referendum is a good idea. (http://tinyurl.com/36qs28 )No he didn't. He is concerned that a referendum on the treaty AFTER it has been ratified is unworkable as the rest of the EU would not let the UK withdraw from something it had ratified and so could lead to the UK leaving the EU altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 can't seem to copy my tiny URL link across, but anyway, EU myths page on the treaty seem to suggest we don't lose all these powers, not that your average sun reader is going to notice it of course, they'll just cry "bugger the foreigners, we want full autonomy"!* * expecting a sun reader to understand the word autonomy is possibly stretching it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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