JPA

[ryu.yokoi]

Angel is an enigma.

A top striker should have several of the following attributes:

Speed: Nope, JPA is not in this category

Power: Not part of his game either

Heading ability: He's good in the air, wthout being as lethal as some.

Close control/ shielding ball: Good touch, but he is easily dispossessed.

Ability to go past defenders: He almost never even tries.

Long range power shooting: Average at best

Placed shooting: More his style, but rarely gets into shooting positions.

Two footed: NO

Killer instinct: Hardly.

As they say about any evaluation system, its only as accurate as the information that gets put into it - which in this case is a matter of opinion.

JPA may not be fast, but he is certainly one of the best leapers in the Prem, and was considered by many as one of the overall the best in the air last season.

His control is well regarded (ask John Terry and William Gallas or the Pompey defenders he skipped around), but this year he has consistently been double teamed by centrebacks, and its hard for any striker to control in those situations.

You don't consider his passing at all, or his build up play and awareness, which are very relevant elements to a complete striker's game. All spaces in which he excels. Note that in yesterday's game, in which we were awful, and he has been singled out for poor play - we had two scoring opportunities (a penalty and another that should have been called), both were created by the guy with the 9 on his back.

He scored several crackers from distance last season, that I think speak to his ability to score from distance as well.

With regard to killer instinct, I think you're dead wrong. He finds ways to score sometimes that people never expect (like a backheel against Argentina when being double marked by Samuel and Ayala).

He's had a poor season, and his form is off, but that doesn't discount the quality he's shown in the past at Villa, for his country, and for River Plate. The guy is a class professional, and exceptional football player.

These are differences of opinion, and your welcome to yours. I appreciate your putting together a framework to present your view, but I (and I suspect others here) utilize the same framework and reach a different conclusion.

[TRL]

Nice post Ryu.

[PB]

You mean Ellis would've accepted an exchange deal for a striker he payed £9.5million for? I find that difficult to believe

Doug 'I wish I hadnt signed him' Ellis?

You see its odd, because the Spanish press were reporting it as a done deal, even after Taylor resigned. Not in the speculative kind of way you sometimes get, but as a matter of fact, with details of wages Betis would have to pay and so on.

O'Leary then had, as his number one priority apparently, to track JPA down and sit him down and persuade him to stay, which thankfully he did.

This is at the same time as we were desperate to get players off the pay roll you will recall. balaban, Alpay etc. Ellis eventually accepted all if these losses and would have done so on JPA too, and is practically on record as saying as much.

[BigJim]

Ryu, you have made many eloquent defences of JPA on here. You are obviously a keen admirer and have seen JPA play in more games than most. I have to respect that, and I am quite prepared to accept he was an outstanding contributor at River. I can then agree that his performance this season cannot "discount" that contribution, but even you must agree that the guy cannot live on reputation for ever.

Believe it or not, I have desperately wanted him to succeed since he came to us. He has an undeniable charisma which has captured the imagination of us all. But having finally decided to look at his play objectively, I stick to my analysis and I have had to admit to myself that much of it has applied since he came here. The fact that he scored a fair few goals last season has clouded that.

Now to detail

"may not be fast, but he is certainly one of the best leapers"

What has leaping to do with speed? He is not fast. Period. I have acknowledged his heading ability.

"the Pompey defenders he skipped around" That stands out in my mind too, as one of the RARE flashes of genius he has shown this season. I stick to my point - he rarely tries it and is easily dispossessed.

"You don't consider his passing at all, or his build up play" A lot of his passing this season has been downright atrocious. He is quite good at one touch layoffs, but too rarely makes a decisive touch in dangerous situations, preferring the easy ball sideways or backwards.

" he has consistently been double teamed by centrebacks" I have noticed this comment elsewhere in his defence. What, the opposition are daring to mark him? Didn't they do that at River Plate?

"an exceptional football player" A little bit over the top, I feel. Still, it's your opinion. I have tried to be brutally honest about a player who was and is a hero for me, and I suspect others here are coming aroud to the same conclusions.

[TRL]

Its so easy kicking people when they are down.

[ryu.yokoi]

"may not be fast, but he is certainly one of the best leapers"

What has leaping to do with speed? He is not fast. Period. I have acknowledged his heading ability.

"the Pompey defenders he skipped around" That stands out in my mind too, as one of the RARE flashes of genius he has shown this season. I stick to my point - he rarely tries it and is easily dispossessed.

"You don't consider his passing at all, or his build up play" A lot of his passing this season has been downright atrocious. He is quite good at one touch layoffs, but too rarely makes a decisive touch in dangerous situations, preferring the easy ball sideways or backwards.

" he has consistently been double teamed by centrebacks" I have noticed this comment elsewhere in his defence. What, the opposition are daring to mark him? Didn't they do that at River Plate?

"an exceptional football player" A little bit over the top, I feel. Still, it's your opinion. I have tried to be brutally honest about a player who was and is a hero for me, and I suspect others here are coming aroud to the same conclusions.

I didn't mean that his leaping ability had anything to do with speed. I was granting your point on speed and moving onto the aerial area where I thought you were discreditting a strength.

JPA can pass the ball, and is one of our only players capable of a quality throughball, and a good cross. IMHO. May have had a few stray in the past few games, but over a career, I think this is a quality of his game most would accept.

Defenders marked him at every level of play, naturally, but he has usually had a partner there to keep things doable. In the past, he's had the same at Villa in Vassell, and done quite well. His life has been much more difficult with persistent double marking in the box this season.

I don't think its over the top to say he is an exceptional player by any means. The guy has overcome adversity time and again, and has been a fantastic ambassador for his country, which is something Colombians appreciate perhaps more than others since a lot of our lads haven't done that in the past. When he is on, he scores goals of a calibre that very few do.

He's certainly been his own worst enemy in many respects though, his game would have certainly been better suited for the Italian or Spanish leagues, but he wanted to prove himself capable in England, and thats proved more difficult than he expected. I hope he can recharge, and find his best form for a few more seasons at Villa so that his legacy will be that of the player he was last year and under JG.

[BigJim]

You see its odd, because the Spanish press were reporting it as a done deal, even after Taylor resigned. Not in the speculative kind of way you sometimes get, but as a matter of fact, with details of wages Betis would have to pay and so on.

Funny how people remember things differently. I seem to remember Villa holding out for a couple of million + Joey for JPA. I certainly never read anything in the press, Spanish or otherwise, reporting the swap as a done deal, much less with details of wages. The Betis coach said he liked the look of him, and that was about that.

O'Leary then had, as his number one priority apparently, to track JPA down and sit him down and persuade him to stay, which thankfully he did

Hang on a minute, weren't you suggesting earlier that Juan had turned down the move to Betis because he was so loyal? Now you're saying DOL had to persuade him to stay? Which was it?

[pablopicasso]

Angel is an enigma.

A top striker should have several of the following attributes:

Speed: Nope, JPA is not in this category

Power: Not part of his game either

Heading ability: He's good in the air, wthout being as lethal as some.

Close control/ shielding ball: Good touch, but he is easily dispossessed.

Ability to go past defenders: He almost never even tries.

Long range power shooting: Average at best

Placed shooting: More his style, but rarely gets into shooting positions.

Two footed: NO

Killer instinct: Hardly.

As they say about any evaluation system, its only as accurate as the information that gets put into it - which in this case is a matter of opinion.

JPA may not be fast, but he is certainly one of the best leapers in the Prem, and was considered by many as one of the overall the best in the air last season.

His control is well regarded (ask John Terry and William Gallas or the Pompey defenders he skipped around), but this year he has consistently been double teamed by centrebacks, and its hard for any striker to control in those situations.

You don't consider his passing at all, or his build up play and awareness, which are very relevant elements to a complete striker's game. All spaces in which he excels. Note that in yesterday's game, in which we were awful, and he has been singled out for poor play - we had two scoring opportunities (a penalty and another that should have been called), both were created by the guy with the 9 on his back.

He scored several crackers from distance last season, that I think speak to his ability to score from distance as well.

With regard to killer instinct, I think you're dead wrong. He finds ways to score sometimes that people never expect (like a backheel against Argentina when being double marked by Samuel and Ayala).

He's had a poor season, and his form is off, but that doesn't discount the quality he's shown in the past at Villa, for his country, and for River Plate. The guy is a class professional, and exceptional football player.

These are differences of opinion, and your welcome to yours. I appreciate your putting together a framework to present your view, but I (and I suspect others here) utilize the same framework and reach a different conclusion.

top post....

but then to add to that, theres also his mental qualities...

his mental strength, which was highlighted after he came to us and stuck by us through arguably the toughest period in his career apart from this season, but again highlighted this season with wanting to take the second penalty against fulham... may players would have hid and not have the bottle to take that....

loyalty.. had the opportunities to move and he didnt...

again, i reiterate, he has been poor this season, but without a decent preseason and playing most of the season without full fitness and sharpness, it isnt his fault when the squad situation is the reason hes playing in the first place....

and again, he isnt the only one to be suffering for the very same reason....

[GarethRobinson]

You mean Ellis would've accepted an exchange deal for a striker he payed £9.5million for? I find that difficult to believe

Well you need to start believing as that is EXACTLY what was going to happen

Absolutely. There was no way a straight swap would have been approved. But I don't think Angel would have hesitated to move, and why should he, as GT didn't want him.

The swap was approved, Juan Pablo was sent home to Columbia for an 'op' at the very start of that summer with absoloutley no intention of him returning to B6 again - indeed he was going to Betis, as a swap for 'Joey'. Fact.

The reason the guy stayed is that he had a point to prove and a desire to play for a club he views as a sleeping giant - his aim, if I understand it correctly, is to help awaken a sleeping giant.

With that being the very reason he chose to come to Villa in the first place as opposed to a plethora of other top european clubs.

The guy has had a bad season. Period.

I understand the questions now being posed, however - his ability has not left him overnight and I sincerley hope he makes a lot of people eat their words next season. injuries, piss poor strike partners, weak midfield, out of form team - all these factors need to be included in any equation as to why he has struggled this season.

His desire and work rate should never be questioned though IMO - if it isn't painfully clear to see that the guy wants success and Villa then I wonder what it is people do see!

[BigJim]

it isnt his fault when the squad situation is the reason hes playing in the first place

Agreed it's not his fault. I'm not blaming him. I'm just pointing up certain deficiencies in his game.

With what we all hope will be a different squad situation next season, I won't be expecting to see so much of him. But when he does make an appearance, I will be expecting much better from him than we have enjoyed of late. As DOL has said, we are entitled to expect quality from him, he cost us a lot of money.

[pablopicasso]

i think we can all see the deficiencies in his game this year, but what we have to do, and some are, is look for the reasons behind those issues that have affected him this year...

once the reasons are found, and some of us see those, we can then give him our unrivalled support and let him know we are not abandoning him, at one of the worst times in his career, because we know hes not 'shit', like some short sighted people are saying he is....

[BigJim]

I think we all know he has been injured, and hasn't had a good partner, and he's getting marked, and is off form, etc. ad infinitum.

I have every sympathy with him, I just want somone else to take his place until he remembers how to play sparkling football again.

[BigJim]

The swap was approved, Juan Pablo was sent home to Columbia for an 'op' at the very start of that summer with absoloutley no intention of him returning to B6 again - indeed he was going to Betis, as a swap for 'Joey'. Fact.

Very interesting, Gareth. And your source is..?

[pablopicasso]

I think we all know he has been injured, and hasn't had a good partner, and he's getting marked, and is off form, etc. ad infinitum.

I have every sympathy with him, I just want somone else to take his place until he remembers how to play sparkling football again.

i would love some cover and competiton for a few players who have had just as poor a season as angel and hopefully we will get that next season, but as we didnt this year, all we can do is support those who have tried and put in the effort, albeit without an end product, and wait for the time when we do have the option to be able to replace an unfit or out of form player and give those that need a rest, an actual rest....

there are other players who are being slated this season for the same thing... lloyd samuel being one.. the guy has had a couple of games off in two seasons and has been playing through injury, simply because we have no one to replace him...

hes getting slated recently, and its not his fault.. again, its the squad situation that is causing it...

similar to ridgewell... hes young, inexperienced but our only other fit central defender, so is playing, when he actually needs slower integration into the team or a loan like cahill has had...

hes been slated recently, and again, its not his fault and down to the squad situation...

similar to luke... i could repeat myself, but you get the idea....

IF we get proper and long overdue investment in the summer, then hopefully we will see a team and a squad like we saw at the game against the barcodes, (before all the numpty acts from barcodes players ruined the game), for most of the season and the real quality of some of our players will be shown for their real worth....

[BigJim]

Pablo, I feel sorry for JPA & JLloyd, and one or two others, but most of all I feel sorry for the supporters who pay their wages. Not me especially, I'm too far away these days, but those of you that pay your hard earned to follow the team home and away. You don't want to go around apologising for the players every other week.

That's why I refuse to wrap the players in cotton wool. I fully expect anyone who's not at his best to be kept out of the way next season until such time as he can earn his place back. Let's switch to feeling sorry for the guys in the reserves.

[PB]

The swap was approved, Juan Pablo was sent home to Columbia for an 'op' at the very start of that summer with absoloutley no intention of him returning to B6 again - indeed he was going to Betis, as a swap for 'Joey'. Fact.

Very interesting, Gareth. And your source is..?

At the time thsi was going down, pretty much at the time taylor resigned, there was alot of hysteria on here about JPA being swapped for Joey. Joey at tha time was valued at around £3m IIRC. Anyway, everyone was scanning whatever information they could find, and whilst the deal was largely ignored here in England, beyond the usual 'Villa flop to go to Spain' crap (sound familiar - JPA scored 23 goals the following season)

Anyway, i can clearly remember having a chat with Ryu about this, We were concerend because at first the article implied that Villa had agreed to let JPA go to Betis for free, as O'Leary didnt want Joey in PX. The article discussed JPA's terms at Betis, ie what he would cost in wages. In fact it wasnt saying that he would be free, it was saying that the only 'cost' would be his wages.

I dont remember if O'Leary flew out to South America, but I know that he met him, as one of his first acts as manager, and reminded him of why he had joined the club in the first place, and that he would the centre point of the team. This part DOl has said himself, that *he*, DOl, persuaded JPA not to go to Betis but to stay and fight for Villa.

The point is, that Angel agreed. Yes he was leaving, and after the way he was treated over the previous 12 months you cant blame him. But he not only stayed, but scored 23 goals, and was the fans player of the year. Now everyone's on his back again, which is no suprise, as its the third such period in his Villa career. there is something about him which attracts wild criticism when he's not playing well, criticism well above what is deserved.

No doubt he'll be everyone's favourite again soon enough, and no doubt there will be other times when people get on his back again.

[BigJim]

the article implied that Villa had agreed to let JPA go to Betis for free, as O'Leary didnt want Joey in PX. The article discussed JPA's terms at Betis, ie what he would cost in wages. In fact it wasnt saying that he would be free, it was saying that the only 'cost' would be his wages

This gets more ridiculous by the minute. Now you're saying that there was not going to be a straight swap deal (because DOL didn't want Joey - OK that part is right as I remember), so Villa were going to let him go on a free transfer? Do me a bloody favour!

And yes, DOL persuaded him he had a future at VP. Nobody's arguing otherwise. I just don't believe he was ever on his way to Betis in the first place, because they wanted a straight swap and Villa placed a higher value on Angel.

Betis were never going to pay any money (they didn't have any) and as soon as DOL sent Joey back the whole thing was scuppered.

[pablopicasso]

Pablo, I feel sorry for JPA & JLloyd, and one or two others, but most of all I feel sorry for the supporters who pay their wages. Not me especially, I'm too far away these days, but those of you that pay your hard earned to follow the team home and away. You don't want to go around apologising for the players every other week.

That's why I refuse to wrap the players in cotton wool. I fully expect anyone who's not at his best to be kept out of the way next season until such time as he can earn his place back. Let's switch to feeling sorry for the guys in the reserves.

the youth players you mean?

refer to luke and ridge....

and i feel sorry for ALL villa supporters... we are denied the right to see the full quality and potential of our current players due to inside club politics and personal agendas...

[ozvillafan]

One season wonder? How about rumoured Villa target Phillips? 30 league goals in 99/00 and only averaging less than half that since.

So back to JPA - he's not had the best season, but outside of the top 4 clubs in the Premier League, which striker would you replace him with?

Yakubu? Is there any more overrated player in the Premier League? Yes - Malbranque!!

Keane? He has a smaller goal return (and, I'll wager, similar "Stats")

Beattie? PL-EASE! Not buying him was a great decision (in hindsight)

Crouch? He's obviously a class player.... as many seem to think now (but not when he left).

Defoe? Great player - but not a straight replacement for Angel, more a replacement for Vassell.

Kluivert? Not showing fantastic form for a forward that has performed at the highest level.

Baros? Again, more a replacement for Vassell than Angel.

Righto - there may be better forwards abroad.... but then they will need time to settle.

So - is there any Premier League forward we could/should replace him with that would do a better job?

Didn't think so.

[BigJim]

OZ, it's not necessarily a question of a permanent replacement.

If JPA hits last season's form again, everybody will be quite happy with him.

What we desperately need is someone to take over when he's not fit / jaded/ off form /tired or whatever other reason stops him from playing to his potential.

Almost anybody would fit the bill.