JulieB

Yeah and then everyone who has beleif in God gets tarred with the same brush! However that would not be my response to you...at all.. Like when my friend's baby died..the Vicar told her.."God needed another Angel in heaven" Well I'm sorry why was she born then...why didn't she go to Route A if that was the case??!! But I'm on my way out so I'll have to PM you later if that's OK?

That's so not what I believe in. Read back a few pages If you wanna laugh and poke fun..then so be it...glad if it makes you happy All I have tried to do is give an opposing point of view and answer specific questions.

Well actually he did in the end...because the foul Canaanite practice of devoting firstborn children to fire was wiped out, along with those who practiced it. Brum American why are you trailing through posts, making sniping comments, yet ignoring the context very often. We were having a debate on specific questions. I'm not laughing and poking fun at your posts.

I don't believe Jesus is God. I believe he is God's son... As I said yesterday Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the Earth if he would do one act of worship to him, how could Satan do that if he wasn't in a position to do that? Therefore the Bible acknowledges that Satan and the Demons have a huge amount of power and influence over events on the earth.

Only despicable bloodthirsty nations that bullied and polluted the land with their foul practices!!..I'll lay odds ,many would be up in arms if they existed today asking the Yanks to go in and sort them out! It wasn't like God didn't warn both his people and other nations that they would undergo judicial punishment if they didn't stop behaving wickedly. Look at Ninevah, Jericho...etc.... What about (2 Chronicles 36:15-16) 15 And Jehovah the God of their forefathers kept sending against them by means of his messengers, sending again and again, because he felt compassion for his people and for his dwelling. 16 But they were continually making jest at the messengers of the [true] God and despising his words and mocking at his prophets, until the rage of Jehovah came up against his people, until there was no healing. Have you read any of my posts about God's condemnation of this practice? I notice those about God's clear instructions for it not to be carried out were completely ignored. I'll repeat .......(Jeremiah 32:35) . . .Furthermore, they built the high places of Ba′al that are in the valley of the son of Hin′nom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through [the fire] to Mo′lech, a thing that I did not command them, neither did it come up into my heart to do this detestable thing,......

Moses...If he existed, I hear you cry but whoever wrote the book of Job it was written about 1473 BCE. In Job he writes (Job 26:7) . . .He is stretching out the north over the empty place, Hanging the earth upon nothing" In stark contrast to other ancient writings and beliefs the Bible was proved scientifically correct. The earth is held in space by the interaction between gravity and centrifugal force. Those invisible forces could not have been seen or known to Moses or surely a Bronze Age people unless under some sort of divine guidance was given. Does modern day science attest to the accuracy of that statement? Yes. (Isaiah 40:22-23) . . .There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell, 23 . . .Again in stark contrast to other ancient beleifs and writings the Earth is indeed a circle...or as the Hebrew word directly translates as Orb which is the exact shape of our planet. Again how the heck would a Bible writer know this without divine guidance? Does modern day scientific thinking attest to the accurateness of this ancient scripture. Yes. Hindusm, Babylonians, Egyptians had all sorts of beleifs about he Earth being flat, resting on Turtles...all sorts. NONE of those writings proved correct scientifically...yet the Bible was quite correct.

I do not agree with Dawkins...and What's the point in quoting criticisms of a belief in a Creator from Evolutionists? I could quote others who criticize Richard Dawkins and the theory of Evolution...Point being??!!! I related the difference between the God of the Bible and the pagan Deities with regard to Molech and Baal worship and sacrifice of children... some pages back. Right then Dundee Villain...we've now moved on from the Bible being written by "Bronze Age Farmers" to "Bronze Age People who had no real understanding about the world or the Universe"... Response to follow...

I think you'll have to ask other's that question. If you are asking me then I would say. Billions, maybe trillions. The Bible gives no indication as to their age only their origin.

Dundee Villa you have missed the point .... You stated that Bible was written by Bronze Age farmers... It clearly wasn't. Moses was bought up as a son of Pharaoh and he wrote the first 5 books... I've listed other Bible writers to demonstrate.. I notice no one commented on the correctness of the Bible stating that Belshazzar was the last King of Babylon when critics jested it was all hocum. As for the Egyptians.... the reason the descendants of Abraham went to Egypt in the first place was due to the famine. Jacob and his sons escaped the famine and moved there... Joseph had by this time become a trusted member of the Egyptian hierarchy.. .in fact Pharaoh put him in charge of all his affairs. It was only in later generations that this relationship deteriorated and the Egyptians treated them as slaves.

Actually the bit at the end says the opposite...according to Exodus...many many Egyptians left Egypt and became alien residents and became part of the nation of Israel. Under the Mosaic law those alien residents were to be treated kindly the same as any Israelite. All God asked was that Pharaoh let the Israelites go...however they were slaves and the Egyptian's no doubt made good use of them ..using them to do all the tasks they didn't wish to carry out. It was Pharaoh who bought the plagues on his people by ignoring Moses's plea...according to Exodus

What is interesting about Moses and the Ten Plagues is that each and everyone of those blights challenged an Egyptian deity and their beliefs. They worshipped Frogs, the river which turned to blood...it all directly challenged their beliefs and way of life.Not forgetting Egypt and arrogant Pharoah... was the ruler of the the then known world. Can you imagine the scene of Moses who had left the house of Pharoah some40 years previously and had become a lowly shepherd, an occupation the Egyptians despised.... challenging the greatest ruler on the planet.Pharoah's words to Moses..."(Exodus 5:2) . . .“Who is Jehovah, so that I should obey his voice to send Israel away? I do not know Jehovah at all and, what is more, I am NOT going to send Israel away.” Yes both rods turned to snakes that of Moses and of the magic practicing priests...( but even Jesus said that the demons could perform powerful things) Surely the fact that Moses reported this shows the honesty of the account? It ended with the death of the first born, which was a practice hineos to the God of the Jew And God used this as a last resort only after repeating his appeal to Pharoah to let his people leave Egypt.Pagan nations had as a matter of course sacrificed their firstborn sons and daughters to their deities.I always think this was God's way of making them see who really was the true God and an active demonstration of his power. Many many Egyptians left with the Israelites the night of that Passover and headed for the wilderness to follow Moses, according to the book of Exodus Of course yet again you could say this is all a load of bunkem, however Egypt and Pharaoh's did exist and there is evidence that the Israelites resided in the land of Goshen for a time.

With all due respect THAT wasn't the question...the fact that Bible Writers who you may say never existed admittedly... were stated to be Bronze Age Farmers... Is that a fair criticism to make though??..... Take the case of the last King of Babylon before it fell to the Persians - Belshazar. according to the book of Daniel. (Daniel 5:1-30) Critics jumped on this and stated that the Bible was wrong and that this man never existed. However during the 19th Century, several small cylinders which were inscribed in cuneiform were discovered in ruins in Southern Iraq. These included a prayer for the health of the eldest son of Nabonidus. King of Babylon. The name of the son? Belshazzar. The Bible had again been proved correct and historical.

More Bible Writers....Who are not Bronze Age Farmers... Luke - Was a qualified Doctor Mathew - Was a Tax Collector for the Romans...presumably literate and good with figures... Daniel - Was educated personally as a Court Attendant to the Kings of Babylon...similarly to Moses..he was highly educated and trusted man of the Court. He was in attendance at that same court when Cyrus the Persian King overthrew Babylon. Paul (Saul) - Was a Roman Citizen and of the Jewish hierachy and very well educated as a lawyer.... until his conversion to a Christian. You only have to read his books in the Christain Greek Scriptures to see his logical arguments presented to both Greek, Roman or Hebrewto see his background was the law.

Here's a selection..... Joshua the next writer.... was King of Judah and also served as Moses's right hand man until his death..he was a mighty king who faced up to the surrounding nations including the Canaanites and the inhabitants of Jericho...Apparently blessed with an abundance of wisdom he successfully apportioned the land within the tribes of Judah and put into place the organisational process for the lands to be governed fairly and justly in accordance with the Mosaic Law, which he did his best to uphold. Hardly the actions of a Bronze Age Farmer! Samuel - Was bought up as a Nazrite by High Priest Eli...he became highly educated and a respected priest of the house of Jehovah. He catalogued the whole of Kings including the pagan nations around them, which can be testified to from archaelogical records such as the Canaaanites and their worship of Baal. He did not hold back in his honest appraisal of God's people or their failings. He anointed Saul as the first King of Israel and then watched and recorded his subsequent downfall He stood up to King David over his dealings with Bathsheba...and again recorded the house of Israel's misdemeanors as well as their triumphs. The Bible writers in complete contrast to the nations surrounding them historically reported failures and defeats as they happened. If character's failed as Kings..or were disobedient this was written. Wheras other's like....Egyptian Pharoah's had people and Cities wiped from records as they saw fit. Hardly any defeats were recorded in ancient writings normally, only lavish victories. The Bible stands out for this.

Bronze Age Farmers????!!!...well let's take a look at the writer of the first 5 books of the Bible... Moses Moses was bought up by Pharoah's family as a son...He became mighty in letters and words...having being educated by no doubt some of the finest teacher's to be found anywhere being as they were the then rulers of the so called civilized world Egypt. One only has to look at their pyramids and artifacts to know that Moses would have harldy grown up a Bronze age farmer! Egyptian Astronomer's mapped the skies!!.. That household would also have had access to one of the finest libraries ever known to man...namely to be found in the city of Alexandria.

We had a huge debate on Evolution on VT a couple of years ago, is it going to make any difference to your viewpoint whatever I say?...erm NO. Am I going to stop beleiving in Creation whatever you say...erm NO?. It's a bit like debating with someone that they shouldn't support their particular football team because you feel yours is better. If you ask me a specific question then I'm pleased to answer it, but a huge topic like Evolution is too much to take on surely. I was sticking up for my belief in a Creator and the fact that somehow that is considered unscientific. The Bible also contradictory to many's assumptions is in fact scientific. According to Wikipedia...omniscience... is the capacity to know everything infinitely, or at least everything that can be known about a character including thoughts, feelings, life and the universe, etc. In monotheism, this ability is typically attributed to God. In the Bible. Yes I would say I do think God ..our Creator is that. However he chooses to exercise that as he decides. He does not choose to pre-ordain everything, otherwise it could be argued why the heck did he bother to create Adam and Eve or the spirit creatures who rebelled if he knew they would. God chooses to give his creations choice on matters. However as soon as mankind chose to disobey him, God immediately laid foundations for this situation to be rectified. As seen in Genesis 2 V 15.

Interesting that the Bible also portrays God as being taunted by this "fallen" slanderous spirit creature.. (Proverbs 27:11) . . .Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me" In Job Chapter 1 you see the scenario where Satan tells God that Job is only a good man for what he can get out of God. He then taunts God that if he withdrew his blessings upon him...that same man Job, would curse him instead. ..

Yeah but with all due respect..I could argue the same... I could say Dundee Villa ..YOU haven't studied the Bible enough, therefore YOU don't understand it's not a book of fiction..Works both ways! God can and sometimes chooses to intervene on specific occasions. However what I was saying is that God gave mankind a free hand to rule himself in order for the question of whether he had the right to expect them to live by his guidelines. If you just track back a couple of pages I did answer this I think as I don't want to re-quote myself again.

Excuse me quoting myself but Julie think you might have missed this post and I'm interested in knowing your thoughts on this. I think I was composing the response when you sent this!..lol give us chance...I am trying to do some work as well! I have tried to answer your points on the previous page.

Actually the time of Jesus's arrival or the Messiah was promised in the book of Daniel there was a period of years given from the time the Jewish line of Kings was cut off when the Babylonians invaded Jerusalem and ended the line with King Zedekiah. This is the reason why thousands of years later King Herod ordered all the children up to the age of two, put to death at the time of Jesus's birth and why Jospeh took his wife and son and fled to Egypt.The Jews were looking for the Messiah to be born around the time he was. Herod was afraid his rulership would be threatened so had any new borns killed just in case. The Bible prophesied that Jesus would be born of the ancestral line of King David and also that he would be born in Bethlehem. As found in Micah Chapter 5 V 2. The book of Micah was written sometime before the destruction of Samaria in 740 BCE. Interesting to note that reason Jospeh and Mary were in Bethlehem was because of the Census that Roman Emperor Caesar Augustus ordered throughout Judea in order to assess tax levies due. They were compelled therefore to travel from Nazereth, the village they lived in, to return to the town of their family line, the City of David..Bethlehem Ephrathah, despite the fact that his wife was heavily pregnant. Also worth noting from a historical point of view that the book of Daniel correctly mentions an "Exactor" going through the kingdom of Judea,.in the prophecies about the line of rulers to come in the future. Daniel 11 V 20. , You are concluding that God at no time will intervene just because he hasn't so far.... that is not true....Jesus's disciples specifically asked Jesus the time that God would take action and intervene..and he gave his answers in Mathew Chapter 24.

Sorry it is exactly what it says on the box...a theory! If you choose to believe it is a fact then it is your choice... We had a huge discussion about Evolution V Creation a couple of years ago and there are scientific holes in the theory of Evolution as I see it...you may feel different..that is your choice. The house I live in had a designer an architect, a builder a maker.. You would laugh at me if I suggested otherwise. Yet I look at a beautiful flower in my garden and am expected to accept it had no designer, no creator it just happened as part of the natural order according to the theory of Evolution, put forward by fellow humans. Beleif in a Creator of the natural laws that govern our Universe and of the creations that lie within that Universe are in my book scientific... Free will does not contradict there being a Creator as I've tried to explain in previous posts. As I've stated on numerous occasions in this thread it is up to each of us to make up our own minds.

I think I've tried to explain that in my answer above.

His Creator...the same as he gave free will to mankind! That spirit creature CHOSE to turn himself into an opposer...a resister towards his maker. Of course God could have destroyed all of them ...then and there.... but like I tried to explain before.... that would have left a huge question mark hanging over matters... "Did the Creator have the right to exercise universal sovereignty over his Creation or could they rule themselves without his guidance?" In the same manner as a parent has to allow their kids to make mistakes out in the world sometimes because it's the only way they learn. Surely it makes sense that the Creator would need to allow sufficient time for mankind to rule himself and try every sort of government possible, in order for that original question to be answered?

Julie, don't mean to be confrontational here - just interested in your pov. You say you can't reconcile evolution with the complexity of nature. However this is exactly what evolutionary theory allows us to - it explains in a simple yet brilliant way how the complexity of life arose as we see it today. Have you ever asked yourself, for example, why there are thousands of different species of beetle? Did god just love making beetles, or is there another reason? Have you read about evolution or studied it in any way in an attempt to understand a bit better? There is masses of information freely available that can explain it to you. Once you understand how evolution works, the pieces all fall into place. There is absolutely no reason why complexity in nature cannot be squared with evolution. Yes I have actually. We had a huge discussion on here on Evolution V Creation a couple of years ago. I can't remember the name of the thread. You have to remember that there are a number of scientists who now question the theory of Evolution because of issues over evidence of Intelligent design. I am not a Creationist....I do not believe God made the Earth and all it's contents in 6 or 7... 24 hour periods... I do however believe that God did create everything over time. including the precise mathematical laws that govern our Universe. I love looking at the Night sky and stars and I love learning about stuff that interests me...and a couple of years ago I took an course on Astronomy at night school for a few months. As I'm lucky enough to live in an area where there's not so much light pollution, the sky at night can be amazing sometimes. It was fascinating and mind boggling stuff. However I was absolutely astounded that the very first slide the Professor put up on the course was actually a scripture from the Bible...that compared the number of stars in the heavens to the grains of sand on the earth....Only since the discovery of the Hubble telescope and it's ability to see into deep space and trillions upon trillions of stars Nebula and the places where they are born etc.... has that ancient statement proved correct. Scientists have quantified so many stars that they have to give them numbers. Yet in stark contrast the Bible says their Creator has a name for each individual star....(Isaiah 40:26) . . .“Raise YOUR eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one [of them] is missing. No other ancient writings talk about this or mention the Earth being round, or hanging upon nothing. All these and loads more scriptures have proved scientifically correct many millenia after they were written. Of course everyone can just choose to ignore, dismiss it all as poetic nonsense as they wish and have as a right...it's called a choice and free will. However it's surely not fair to assume that just because someone chooses to believe in a Creator ...that they would be somehow any less scientific than someone who believes in an alternative explanation.

No it's not imperfect to have free will. Like I said a baby is not born a violent criminal, yet he may grow up to be one, despite the best efforts of his parents. Jesus was a perfect man, yet the Bible says the Devil tempted him into not obeying God and instead choosing a different path. If Jesus couldn't have been anything else but perfect, why the heck would the Devil bother tempting him...would have been a waste of time. Jesus had a choice, whether he served God or not...same as the first man and woman had a choice... Once Adam & Eve disobeyed God that left an open question as to whether their Creator had the right to give them guidelines to live by....same as any parent with their children. No Adam and Eve chose to disobey God. Yes they were swayed by a spirit creature, who questioned God's guidelines and also stated that God had lied to them. The word "Satan" means resister...the word "Devil" comes from the Greek word "Diabolos" meaning "slanderer". This spirit creature MADE HIMSELF into a "Satan" by turning against God and setting himself up as a rival when he caused Adam & Eve to disobey God. When Jesus condemned the hypocritical scribes and Pharisees...he told them in no uncertain terms where their wicked ways originated.... (John 8:44-45) 44 YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. Notice Jesus says... he didn't stand fast, or remain....implying he could have done had he chosen. It's interesting to note in the book of Job, Chapter 1 v 1 -22 that Satan is shown to be a spirit creature that is now by this time a rival or adversary to God..interfering in mankind's affairs.