Daholteend Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 This Mularkey of selling off our better players in order to bring in a couple of mediochre ones sucks. Imagine what Angel and Baros could achieve if they had players like Saviola and Aimar along side them. I agree that selling off assets to cover your cash flow shortfalls is a sad state of affairs. Yes, those assets should have been utilised long ago to have maintained and improved the quality of the teams that BFR had accomplished and improved on them. Last years Deloitte Football Money report placed Villa at Number 20 and also commented on what Villa needed to do to improve on their position. Obviously no one at B6 read that part. Villa has fallen off the radar of the top twenty and are likely to stay off until there is new vision/ownership and greater investment in the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrobo1 Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 its all short term thinking from the board though daholteend... we start to lose money, players get sold... we lose more money, staff get released, we still lose money, the land is sold... its missed oportunity to progress after missed opportunity to progress... except Andy, the assets will eventuaally run out and nothing will be left to sell .... All the money from the sale will be used to service an overdraft of at least £12m and not used to invest into the fabric of the club. this is asset stripping because the short term benefit will not improve the club in one bit except to make it more attraactive to sellers, but even this is wrong as few assets will be there. It is a strange move and one I believe Ellis has been told to do ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 It is a strange move and one I believe Ellis has been told to do ..... Not really if you think about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrobo1 Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 not sure what u mean Rich, I don't think Ellis would want to sell the land at this time, surely it will bring the asking price down as the asset value is weakened ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Why? It was valued at 100K. Assets also include debt Ian. A debt of 6M overdraft , say, is more than 100K land So reducing the debt by 6M or so increases your asset value by that amount, instead of the 100K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Last years Deloitte Football Money report placed Villa at Number 20 and also commented on what Villa needed to do to improve on their position. Im pretty sure that was just on turnover, not profits or wealth and had a lot to do with a good league cup run, good league placing and healthy amounts of fans paying to watch the team play. Im pretty sure we wont be anywhere near the top 20 next time the survey is published. Well done Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrobo1 Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 I know what u mean Rich and IF the money comes through on the surface the deal looks good, but thats the problem it looks far too good. We have sold the land to a company that has Villa's involvement in it, a company with net assets of only £500k and no reserves who are paying £7m CASH ???? Is it stupid, naive and foolish to suggest that this deal may not be pucker ??? Ellis has demanded to know how people will fund the purchase of the club I am very curious as to who is funding this land sale ??? It could be argued that this is a move to force a sale because people interested in the land would want the money for themselves ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Is it stupid, naive and foolish to suggest that this deal may not be pucker ??? yes. The thing it does is increases Villa's value by reducing the debt amount. Seems to be that the club have just announced the basis for valuation of the company in any future sale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablopicasso Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 do you know what i find the most sad thing about this whole affair? is that we feel the NEED to scrutinize and question the motives behind the sale, rather than its being sold to strengthen the club.... we HAVE to be wary of the motives because of past experiences.. sad sad state to be in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrobo1 Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 well of course what should be happening is that every single penny of the supposed £7m should be given to the manager (forget who it is) to strengthen the team. That is the core activity of the company. andy I just find it very interesting to see how BCS will fund this and consdiering it appears Villa have a major interest in BCS as well could it be they are using this to sell the club ??? or protect themselves from the club being sold ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenjos Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 The funds realised by the potential sale of the Serpentine Property will increase the net worth of AVFC Errrrrrm no. The sale of that land is to cover poor management of money. We are now in the same situation as a year ago but without that bit of land. so how are we worth more? Doug, in the past has indicated that AVFC, unlike most Prem clubs is relatively debt free. He has and hes been right until the mid season accounts which showed us using our overdraft. Even though many of us perhaps do not care for Doug's tenure at the club, and frequently we hear claims that the business is run like a corner shop, one thing that can be said is that Doug is able to read and interpret the profit and loss statements and understands his balance sheet. i disagree. If he understood the balance sheets he woudl of saw that he has lost tens of millions of the past 4 or 5 years and realised what a bad job hes doing It seems to me that he runs the corporation like a Chancellor of the Exchequer and knows where every penny is spent. true. and just like the chancellor hes using everyones pension to fund the shortfall i wanted to highlight that cuz i like it In 2005 Aston Villa was ranked by Deloitte at Number 20 in their rankings of the world's money clubs. thats top 20 clubs EARNINGS. Now shoudl a club pulling in that much cash be making losses? not with a competant board i tell thee If anyone is aware of any significant short term or long term debts owned by the club I would be interested to hear them. We've got no long term debts. true. But imagine if we took on a long term loan and had invested and backed managers at the right points in the past ten years (2nd in league, cup finals, John Gregory at top of leage). I think we'd be a tiny bit more successful personally. The club's performance last season was woeful in terms of playing ability and more seriously in terms of revenue. Reduced revenues mean that prudent businessmen have to consider their cash position and budget accordingly. If the budget reveals that there will be a shortfall of funds at any point, attention has to be given as to how to adjust for that situation. Well having a thin bare squad would lead to the risk of injuries and us failing to pull in a decent position. Of course this was because of dougs 3 season plan to make us rely on kids and have no strength. We have had to adjust because of getting salaries cut and the fact that Mr O'leary is tactically as sharp as a wet fish. So to be honest this situation was always possibly with the under investment since the turn of the millenium. There are ways to rectify a position. Increase sales revenues, and for Aston Villa that means selling more tickets, selling more merchandise, making improved deals with kit suppliers/sponsors etc etc. Well we seem incompetent at that as our sponsorphip and kit deals have fell since our old deasl. Secondly they can increase prices of tickets and merchandise etc they cant sell the stuff as it is!!! Another way is to cut overheads by trimming unneccesary staff, or cutting hours or reducing expenditures etc. An improved position in the Prem will bring in more crowds and a better share of the Prem Broadcasting revenues. FIngers crossed huh? Selling property that is not maximising it's value is also an option. But we dont want asset stripping at the club!!!! [/sarcasm] As previously mentioned, we fans probably don't know how those funds will be spent. It could be used for a host of things that have not been mentioned. Perhaps part of the money will be spent on the new pitch which we have heard is costing 700k. It could also be used on improving the training ground facilities. as far as we were lead to believe these were ring fenced (i think thats the correct term) at the last AGM There are a host of positive uses that can be made of the money. My simple question was for those who are making allegations of "near bankrupt" to support their claims with facts. I would be surprised to hear that such claims were true. We ARE haemorranging money every season and have no real liquid funds available. our value is in the ground and the land We may not always like the way the club is run but once in a while it is possible that the board does some basic things that sensible businessmen do. I prefer to take a balanced view of what the club and it's owner do. I think that sometimes we Villa fans are so severely critical of everything that the club does and are quick to blame Doug or DOL for everything at Villa Park, so much so that even when they do the good things they are criticised. i cant remember the last good thing they did!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gringo Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 We may not always like the way the club is run but once in a while it is possible that the board does some basic things that sensible businessmen do. I prefer to take a balanced view of what the club and it's owner do. I think that sometimes we Villa fans are so severely critical of everything that the club does and are quick to blame Doug or DOL for everything at Villa Park, so much so that even when they do the good things they are criticised. There's been some mad things said on here recently. It's desperate measures from an old incompetent fool who can't keep track of what's happening and has an inability to plan or strategize. This isn't part of any well thought out move on the PLC's behalf this is, shit what can we sell this month. Shirt deal, sponsorship, catering, land, someone's raising cash, but it's only going to pay the bills - there's no invesment. Blessed are the easily pleased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy178 Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 bum cheese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 8, 2006 Moderator Share Posted June 8, 2006 There's been some really interesting posts on this thread. Andy's point about us feeling the need to criticise...daholte's and gringo's, Richard's. Malc's etc. I think that it kind of reflects the way the club is run under Ellis. it is run as a business with football following behind. (Ellis somewhere haead of both, but anyway...) That's not necessarily a bad approach, and in the past, or at other levels or leagues there's a lot to be said for it. - I mean, if you consider another club, so that we have no emotional involvement, if someone says, I dunno, Preston North End are well run, they don't have debt, they do well in staying at or above their level, they'll not go broke, and if they get the right manager, they can do well, perhaps challenge the top clubs in ther division, then there's not a lot to criticise, logically. I think that when the Prem was an infant, or before, there was a valid argument for saying the same sort of argument applied to Villa. And the club would never go bust, like Sheff Wed nearly did, or Forest. They could always claim to be well run, the Villa. However, somewhere in the mid-late 90's things changed. In the Prem, money became the utter dominant driving force. Clubs who by one means ( huge fanbases) or another (rich owner) or yet another (brilliantly run) or a combination of all these things were able to take a huge step ahead of the rest. Villa had the possibility to be one of those clubs, but not under Ellis's way of doing things. Like we all say, too cautious, too "small corner shop", too "I know best". As a result we were left well and truly behind. You don't se the signs at first - after all it could just be a bad season, but gradually it dawns that there is a big gap, then an unbreachable divide. The anger, frustration and annoyance sets in amongst the fans. The board gets flak. The the anger grows, the board starts to panic, but without the skills or attitude to really bite the bullet and go for it, or the balls to resign and let someone else try, we are left muddling around in the middle. Bereft of the millions coming into the top, bereft of the leadership or dynamism to even seek to be the best of the rest. Now we're just waiting for the end, for Ellis to go. The issue of selling an asset stached away 15 years ago to make up a bank overdraft is not really the issue. It may be slightly vaguely hooky, or it may be all above board. So what? What does it matter in the big picture. Without a different approach and atmosphere we are consigned to be a footnote to seasons end video - "and Aston Villa finshed 15th that year" scrutinising Ellis's manouevrings, good and bad, doesn't bring any change or advance, it just makes talking points about what we feel is a discredited regime. Until we are a football club first and foremost, all utterly dedicated to winning matches on the pitch, to providing as much as is humanly possible to give the 11 players and manager what we can to help them win, we're just marking time and slipping backwards as others move on. The present has caught up with Ellis and the future is behind him, now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfcinwales Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Brilliant Blandy I would suggest some are desperate to find a way to discredit Ellis enough to promote a method for his downfall. Its impossible of course he's the master at hiding the truth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gringo Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 I would suggest some are desperate to find a way to discredit Ellis enough to promote a method for his downfall. I would hope some are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daholteend Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 The anger, frustration and annoyance sets in amongst the fans. The board gets flak. The the anger grows, the board starts to panic, but without the skills or attitude to really bite the bullet and go for it, or the balls to resign and let someone else try, we are left muddling around in the middle. Bereft of the millions coming into the top, bereft of the leadership or dynamism to even seek to be the best of the rest. Now we're just waiting for the end, for Ellis to go. The issue of selling an asset stached away 15 years ago to make up a bank overdraft is not really the issue. It may be slightly vaguely hooky, or it may be all above board. So what? What does it matter in the big picture. Without a different approach and atmosphere we are consigned to be a footnote to seasons end video - "and Aston Villa finshed 15th that year" scrutinising Ellis's manouevrings, good and bad, doesn't bring any change or advance, it just makes talking points about what we feel is a discredited regime. Until we are a football club first and foremost, all utterly dedicated to winning matches on the pitch, to providing as much as is humanly possible to give the 11 players and manager what we can to help them win, we're just marking time and slipping backwards as others move on. The present has caught up with Ellis and the future is behind him, now. I wholeheartedly agree Blandy. Ellis should have retired from "running" every last detail at Villa park many many years ago. Sadly for us fans he has outstayed his welcome, much the same way as he did whenever he visited Big Ron's after the match drinks parties. I sincerely hope that the end of his regime is nigh and that AVFC be blessed with a Fairy Godfather with deep pockets whose priority if football first and who has the wisdom to let a new top ranked manager draft top ranked players who are capable of competing at the highest level year in year out. With HDE at the helm AV will sadly continue to stagnate until it stinks so much that even the die hard Ellis supporters ( all five of them) will clamour for changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gringo Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 On a side note, our next owner banked another £18m yesterday. I'm alright jack Bizspace, which supplies office and industrial space for small businesses, yesterday unveiled a long awaited bid from property group Highcross. The 93.5p-a-share cash offer values the company at £77.6m, and represents an 18% premium on the share price on March 28, the day before it announced a takeover approach. The deal is recommended by the board and accepted by more than 50% of investors, and Highcross is believed to have snapped up another 29.9% in the market. The shareholders accepting the bid include Trefick, the vehicle of Jack Petchey, which has a 23% stake, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daholteend Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 I agree with some of your sentiments stevenjos. In blue you will find a few responses. Errrrrrm no. The sale of that land is to cover poor management of money. We are now in the same situation as a year ago but without that bit of land. so how are we worth more? On the books that piece of land valued on the books at 100k, when sold may realise a cash value of 7M +. The sale converts the real estate to a cash asset which until it is disposed of increases the net worth of the business. DH ... Doug is able to read and interpret the profit and loss statements and understands his balance sheet. i disagree. If he understood the balance sheets he woudl of saw that he has lost tens of millions of the past 4 or 5 years and realised what a bad job hes doing I am sure he saw both but in his own redoubtable style attributed the poor job to other factors than himself. The usual strategy was to sack the manager :roll: Where I said that he can read his balance sheets and Profit and Loss statements I perhaps should have added that the ability to read them does not mean that one has enough business acumen to implement strategies that CEO's of large corporations utilise on a daily basis to remain competitive in their fields and yet still return a handsome dividend to the shareholders and maintain the share price at the same time. DH If anyone is aware of any significant short term or long term debts owned by the club I would be interested to hear them. We've got no long term debts. true. But imagine if we took on a long term loan and had invested and backed managers at the right points in the past ten years (2nd in league, cup finals, John Gregory at top of leage). I think we'd be a tiny bit more successful personally. Agreed, but I hate to think of where we could actually be by now because that generally leaves me more frustrated and disappointed at where Villa are than I already am :cry: DH Another way is to cut overheads by trimming unneccesary staff, or cutting hours or reducing expenditures etc. An improved position in the Prem will bring in more crowds and a better share of the Prem Broadcasting revenues. FIngers crossed huh? hehehehe yes, and toes DH There are a host of positive uses that can be made of the money. My simple question was for those who are making allegations of "near bankrupt" to support their claims with facts. I would be surprised to hear that such claims were true. We ARE haemorranging money every season and have no real liquid funds available. our value is in the ground and the land There is also a value in the company's goodwill and the fact that the club is still competing (barely) in the Premiership and a variable value in it's squad of talented (or not) players. An ambitious owner who can think outside of the box should be able to take Aston Villa's current situation and raise funds using the real estate as security and invest in the future. However as we know we have an aging man with a dicky heart who seems at his stage in life unwilling or unable or both to risk his share value in AVFC in an effort to create a successful future. Funds to invest in Aston Villa would be available to a creative board if they sought them and showed their capacity to provide a realistic business plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenjos Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 On the books that piece of land valued on the books at 100k, when sold may realise a cash value of 7M +. The sale converts the real estate to a cash asset which until it is disposed of increases the net worth of the business. Yeah but Doug had already valued that land at ten million and several times said her was supposedly "underselling the club". my original post still stands. we are in a slightly worse financial situation to last year. and that land is now gone! wish i had time to reply! hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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