economic situation is dire

[snowychap]

Not exactly, it's a weakness in character ...

Yes, exactly. :?

I'm a pragmatist...

That's a bit of a cop out, I'm afraid.

It's a shrug of the shoulders.

It is saying 'that's the way of the world' as though the future is set in stone.

I'd suggest that people's comfort in being 'pragmatists' is based upon the willingness of previous generations to have ideals and to try to act upon them.

[CVByrne]

It is a slight cop out, possibly. But it's more that things aren't really that bad. We've been told it's the end of the world, that or children will have no future and so on. When in reality here is almost everyone is living a far better life than we had 20, 15 even 10 years ago.

So from the view of an irish person who grew up when my country was poor, who had to wear handed down clothes from my older brother. I can say, stop moaning things are far better for kids now then when I grew up.

So things are not dire enough to warrant a rethink of the system.

[snowychap]

But it's more that things aren't really that bad.

Another cop out.

I can say, stop moaning ...

Should we count ourselves lucky we've got anything?

Should we remind ourselves that people in some places in the world are starving?

Should we say it's all the fault of the people with weak characters?

Should we blame the unions?

[CVByrne]

Well I was born in western europe, I count myself lucky for that.

People are indeed starving in places in the world. Charity is my small way of helping that.

No we shouldn't say it's the fault of weak characters, but people need to accept that some of their problems are their own fault.

No, unions job is to get better pay and conditions for it's members. It's governments fault for they let public sector pay reach such unsustainable levels.

[CVByrne]

Just to give an idea if how bad the government here let things get. A quick check at the government statistics from the uk and ireland shows average public sector pay is £23,660 in the uk while here in ireland it is €50,598.

[snowychap]

Well I was born in western europe, I count myself lucky for that.

People are indeed starving in places in the world. Charity is my small way of helping that.

No we shouldn't say it's the fault of weak characters, but people need to accept that some of their problems are their own fault.

No, unions job is to get better pay and conditions for it's members. It's governments fault for they let public sector pay reach such unsustainable levels.

I don't think you understood my post. :?

[snowychap]

Why is average public sector pay a reflection of 'how bad things got'? :?

[CVByrne]

Well that the government had no grip in the finances and were mismanaging our country. They thought the tax revenues from stamp duty would go on forever. But the tax revenues were only high due to the property bubble. So when it burst and all stamp duty and capital gains taxes dried up we were left with a huge public sector pay bill and huge social welfare bill the country couldn't come close too affording and never really could. Then we're left with questions of why we have the highest public sector pay levels in europe, we have far from the best public services.

Do you think there is any limit to how much we should spend on public sector pay? Should a 23 year old teacher start on 45000 a year plus state pension? Should hospital consultants earn a quarter of a million per year ? Do you think there should be any limit on how much public sector workers are paid?

[snowychap]

Should hospital consultants earn a quarter of a million per year ?

What some footballers 'earn' in a fortnight, you mean?

What some people in the financial world might 'earn' in an hour?

I'm not sure that many people ought to receive remuneration of that level.

[CVByrne]

I agee such levels of remuneration is obscene. But private companies do differ from the public sector. Our tax goes to pay wages. When doctors earn levels of pay like that and we have over crowded hospitals it drives me mad. Why should my grandmother have to spend days on a trolly in a hallway.

Similarly, why should children have to sit in prefabs with poor heating while all our education budget goes to teachers pay?

I'd have no problem with such things if it wasn't for the fact that their counterparts in europe earn considerably less. You have to ask why do we have by far the best paid public servants in europe? Why have the government let things get this way.

How can england have an average public sector pay level of 60% that in ireland. We have simply squandered the money from the boom years. While we should have been building schools and hospitals we instead over paid our public sector so our government could be reelected and retain power.

This is how the government failed us.

[CVByrne]

I have absolutely nothing against any public sector worker but the numbers don't lie. The majority of our increases in tax revenue over the years went to pay at the expense of infrastructure. The government is to blame for this. Nobody else. There should have been a better balance

[snowychap]

Should a 23 year old teacher start on 45000 a year plus state pension?

Where does that happen?

Does this document say that?

[snowychap]

Blog showing comparison in teachers' pay in OECD countries in 2007 (figures are from OECD data, it appears).

[CVByrne]

Www.tui.ie/salary_scales/default.286.html

30904 + the two education allowances 1236 and an honors degree 4918.

Total 37058. This is before all other allowances which were detailed in an irish times article I'll try to find. Basically teachers do exam corrections and courses during the summer which add to their pay. Also over half of all teachers receive a management allowance.

I'll try did up the piece from the irish times.

[CVByrne]

Blog showing comparison in teachers' pay in OECD countries in 2007 (figures are from OECD data, it appears).

That would be about to right given exchange rates at the time. But does overlook the over 6k allowance for having qualifications that you need to teach in the first place.

[snowychap]

Basically teachers do exam corrections and courses during the summer which add to their pay.

So they do extra work and get paid for it? Naughty them.

Total 37058

Should a 23 year old teacher start on 45000 a year

:?:

[CVByrne]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2009/1020/1224257048765.html

Also the pay scales above have been adjusted by the public sector pay cuts announced in the budget so the starting salary of 40k from last year is now 37k this year.

I cannot find the piece detailing that the average earnings of a starting teacher is 45k after all allowances, supervision etc..

Can you be so kind as to answer my question posed before, would you have any limit on public sector pay? You seem to defend everything without answering that simple question. So should teachers in ireland be paid more ? Or will all pay levels any public sector worker achieve be defended by you on principle alone?

[snowychap]

would you have any limit on public sector pay?

:?

That's a rather bizarre question as I don't think there would be anyone who would say no.

I'd suggest setting appropriate salaries for work done.

You happen to think that people in the public sector are overpaid (although it seems that some of your figures don't actually stack up as like some of your perceptions), I'd probably disagree.

I think that the work of nurses, doctors, teachers and the like are probably undervalued by society.

I did say (in response to your question about someone earning 250k per year):

I'm not sure that many people ought to receive remuneration of that level.

So, I'm not sure that the comment Or will all pay levels any public sector worker achieve be defended by you on principle alone? is really worth much more comment than that.

[CVByrne]

So how much in your opinion should be paid to teachers? Starting salary with no allowances for qualifications required to do their job, like having a degree?

I have no problem with pay levels of anyone earns as long as it is of similar level to the rest of europe. If other countries can pay public servants the levels we do and sustain it without windfall taxes like stamp duty then I have no problem at all.

But with 5.5bln of tax revenues going on teachers salaries, when we have a risk tax take of 34.4bln. That is 16% of all the tax in this county going on teacher pay. It's not sustainable. That is my only point

i Do you think it is sustainable? Would you consider a % that size of government budget should go on teacher pay?

[snowychap]

So how much in your opinion should be paid to teachers?

Two farthings.

Seriously, what kind of a question is that?

It would depend on a number of factors. One can't just pluck a figure out of the air and consider it to be anything other than a nonsense answer (which is why I gave you the one above).

Do you think it is sustainable? Would you consider a % that size of government budget should go on teacher pay?

Looking at some of the figures on the OECD website (here), specifically the spreadsheet with the data for indicator B6, it would seem that Ireland's spending on staff in the non-tertiary category of the education sector was (in the 2006 data) around 82.6% of the 3.5% of GDP that makes up all of that category of the education budget. The OECD average is 80.2% of 3.69% of GDP.

As to sustainability, that is down to context - in terms of tax take, government borrowing and much more. The pay of staff in the education system cannot be discussed in isolation otherwise it becomes a subjective 'I think they're paid too much' moan.