blandy

They are, both nobbled, yes and self deservedly so. I don't see that he's hamstrung by the wishes of the folk he was wanting to bring back into the fold, at all,. I do accept that there are plenty of former or current and from his perspective hopefully futureLabour a voters in some areas who feel that the way the country has worked has failed them, and they blame the EU for that, and so voted Leave. BUT, this doesn't hamstring him. What it does, if he wants their votes is oblige him instead of going "they blame the EU, therefore I must keep them onside by also blaming the EU" and therefore trying to hold two opposing positions at one, to do something along the lines of what Caroline Lucas did - attempt to listen and to persuade these prospective voters, indeed all prospective voters of what his view of the reality is - that they are not lacking in employment or benefits or wages or housing or NHS or etc. because of the EU, but because of how successive Governements in the UK have ignored them, taken them for granted, failed to decentralise the UK and the way most, or too much money gets spent on London, and that it's not fruit pickers and plumbers from Poland that have held them back, but the actions of the last few Gov'ts in not supporting areas of influx with commensurate funding for housing, hospitals and the rest. Yes, that wasn't going to be a quick process, but he's been in his potting shed dithering for 3 years. Time wasted. "the rich man's media has made sure they've stayed confused" Do these angry people read the Telegraph, Mail, Sun and express a lot, and get their views from those papers? if they do, why were they allegedly former Labour voters at all?They are loathesome rags, though.

I can't think of any party leader who has lost 2 elections ever staying on. I can'teven think of one apart from Corbyn who's stayed on after losing a single election. The normal thing to do is resign if you lose an election. I understand reasons why Corbyn didn't, tbf.

Never change, Snowy. This place just wouldn't be the same if people could simply commend another poster for critical thinking, without someone else divining it as a "line of attack".

No, that wasn't quite my point. The first part yes. To my reading @HanoiVillan had taken the twitter thread, looked at it and determined that a number of the assumptions and arguments made in it were essentially "leaps of faith" that didn't have the strength to support the conclusions reached, and that perhaps the tweeter's own views on Brexit might have influenced, one way or another, the logical argument the tweeter was laying out. It's one of the things with social media, that many people (and I've done it myself) see a tweet, or series of them, and click "like" or "retweet" and move on to the next "outrage", their biases re-inforced, their positions fortified. But sometimes, as HV pointed out, the case behind the message being put out is weaker than strident tweets appear to imply. So my gentle compliment to HV was kind of "Yeah, you don't often see people doing what you did and examining the case in more detail with a sceptical eye, have a (VT) like" HV is not the only person to do it, but it's rarer than we/I'd like isn't it? Surely you've only got to look at all the responses to his tweet to see that so many responders to it had not used the same level of critical thinking as HV, so many had seemingly missed, or not taken into account in their own responses that the tweeter had dismissed the potential other avenues of explanation with a 'I don't think much of that" and "not convinced of that" and didn't have as strong an argument as they were then extrapolating to demand this that and the other "be done about it". The second part, you say my point was " whereas everyone else was accepting the content of the thread because it was 'written by someone with a particular position on Brexit'. - No, absolutely not. I think I said, without going back to check, HV's approach was "rare" [on Brexit]. To me I think there's almost no reasoning left in most of the coverage we get, online, TV, radio, newspapers... and of course by the actual proponents of Brexit (now at whatever cost).

Yes, plenty in his tweets and retweets. This is veering off topic somewhat, though. Have a look for yourself, you can answer your own question.

No . My mistake. Looks like two different anti-Brexit Marc Owen Joneses.

From his use of the hashtag #StoptheCoup in the quoted tweet and then from his blog "life is tinged with anger and depression at the Brexit vote .... I had hoped that we would remain."

Knee burn black toe

Have a massive like for using your own (excellent) brain and not just accepting what's written by someone with a particular position on Brexit. Critical thinking is largely absent from all the to-ing and fro-ing on the whole thing.

of course it's critical to be cautiously couscous conscious

You give them way too much credit, with your theory. It's said a lot that it's a sinister power grab by a slick set of ultra rich tax-dodging businessment (and women), manipulating the proles for their personal gain. There's of course an element of some rich folk making more money, etc. but Brexity throbbers like Marc Francois, David Davies, Priti Patel, Leadsom, and the rest are almost all thick as two short planks. These are not intelligent ultra manipulators with a plan, these are efftards without a clue, but an over inflated sense of their own improtance and judgement and a complete lack of awareness of their own, very obvious limitations. It's ideological bell ends, more than crafty billionaires and multi-nationals behind this clusterpork.

I take your point, but I think win-win is overdoing it. It's clearly a significant risk for him. It's a risk in several ways. Losing a VoNC could see the end of him being PM - he could end up being remembered (and he wants to be thought of as a significant figure in history, not as an inept sidenote like May) as the shortest ever duration PM (certainly in modern times). He could lose control of the whole process, he could lose his seat in Uxbridge. The narrative and, er, momentum would quickly change if he were to lose a VoNC. It would change from "Decisive Boris Johnson, outsmarting remainers and finally sorting out Brexit" to "Clown Boris Johnson throws away his premiership with reckless gamble that backfired and left Britain to accidentally crash out of the EU due to blundering incompetence".

And with the whole state killing and "disappearing" and judicial apparatus at his disposal.

Fair point, but he speaks (as I read it) like someone who's lived there a good while.

Divided by a common language. I think both the above quotes seem right, to me. In the US, the old commie trope is indeed just that. It's not the case for UK posters, though. We don't remotely see Warren or whoever as "Commie". Not even Corbyn is seen that way, here. Our (I think) UK references to Putin are as a Kleptocrat, an asset grabbing, opponent "neutralising", deeply corrupt leader who's interest is not communism, but power and influence and a nationalism and tactical approach that favours disrupting anyone or anything that night hamper his ability to continue his self enriching reign.

I agree they'll try to Blame everyone else, I don't think it'll stick, though. I don't think a lot of England likes the tories, I think they are tolerated more than liked, and that is on the (right or not) basis that the tories are stable, responsible, careful, keep things ticking along, and up for those who want to get on and all that (rubbish). Brexit will totally kill that false belief for once and all, IMO.

I do. Me up here on my cloud thinks it's been his plan to make the EU believe that he's serious about it, that the plan is also to make MPs believe he's willing to call an election if they vote him down - knowing they don't want to lose their seats. With his aimed outcome being to get the EU to give him something that he will then take to parliament with the choice realistically being available to them to either "vote it through or no deal Brexit happens", again knowing they will then vote it through. It's obviously flawed and extremely high risk, and could lead to either the EU still deciding not to move an inch, or enough tories voting against their own party, meaning he has 2 ways of losing and one of winning. I doubt he'll get hoofed out because so many MPs see Corbyn as a terrible, at least as bad or worse than the "no deal", alternative) and think the most likely outcome by a street is a tweaked version of May's deal going through. So I see it as a high risk attempt, but one which has a decent chance of him doing what he said. This stuff today has positioned things more in his favour. No deal might happen, but only by "accident", by events he doesn't want to happen.

They might think that, but I doubt it's true in reality. I mean Brexit is going to create (obviously) remained types who hate the tories forever for doing Brexit, and the leavers are going to be mad as hell when they don't get what they were promised and will blame the tories, no matter how much various throwers try to slope shoulders and blame everyone else but themselves. It's one ray of sunshine in a storm of utter poo, the tories are toast electorally, whatever short term polls might tell us over the next few weeks. Once the fan is hit, the muck is going to bury the words removed.

I wish he'd feck off through it.

"Everybody dies"

Aye, I can't remember if it was that particular bike ride, but I rode up a slight hill, maybe ¼ mile or so long, and when I got to the top I almost passed out. Mad dogs and Englishmen and all that. It was mental hot at times - high 40s for about 3 weeks In row, and mid 30s at night. Ground still hot to walk on at midnight, the smell of hot trees and bark. I absolutely loved it out there. What a place. I miss it.

editing done.

Yeah, they run them close, for sure. Good call.

A minute one, perhaps? or on second thoughts.....