QldVilla

Yes im seeing where the ignorance is, blind following the blind scenario, god forbid people have there own opinions and thoughts.

Well, I like to get information from many different forums, some choose one over the other and there's many different mediums you can get that information from. Your own PM and other political leaders have said they don't agree with taking the knee and that they don't support its use due to its association with BLM. To also quote Wilfred Zaha the first player to stop doing the knee, 'I find it degrading'. Other black players have stopped doing it as well for their own reasons, some quoting they don't like what BLM stands for. The fans don't miss this. To quote your PM, 'I don't believe in gestures, I believe in action'. Many others have commented on what BLM stands for and to be brutally honest, the players could have chosen any gesture to stand against racism but they followed the one adopted by BLM and had it emblazoned on the back of their jersey's. They subsequently come out and say it has nothing to do with BLM (to come out and say this automatically entertains the fact that they have identified that some fans don't like the gestures association), but the average person isn't silly, they become more knowledgeable about the BLM mvt, pulling down statues, attacking Police and they don't like it. The old saying, 'if it walks like a duck.....' At the end of the day some of us like you and me can see that the players are genuine in their reasoning and we can support their stance. Others see this as political gesturing which started from BLM and they don't like it in their sport, why, because if you swallow BLM's narrative, if you are white you are inherently racist and this offends hardworking people/fans. I'd bet if the players came up with a different gesture and communicated better, there wouldn't be one boo, people would just applaud.

The problem with your argument, is they are completely different issues. The country decided to leave the european union boo hoo. Your country voted and made a decision, democracy in action. The issue with BLM is that there reasoning actually isnt backed up with statistics. By the way BLM stands for more than defund the police, it is a marxist organisation and isnt interested in the equalty of opportunity, it is a divisive ideological movement and belivies all white people are inherently racist. It doesnt surprise me that some don't let the facts get in the way of their argument or they come up with a cartoon version of BLM, really just highlights their own naivety. PS dont mind the toppling of statues and attacking Police etc etc...

They may of said that, but the reality is this didn’t start 2 years ago, it started in reaction to the riots in the US. A lot of people around the world have an issue with the politics of BLM, you can quote the right wing media etc, but normal people actually research something they don’t know or understand and you don’t need to go far past their landing page to know it isn’t with the expectations of mainstream society. You can use the word submission to spin a narrative, but he said nothing racist. Do I agree with him, no. But I’m not going to stand by and watch a nobody label someone a racist because of a post on social media. It’s cowardly just like those who make racist statements about these players. You need to think about what type of community you want, if you want to call out racists great, but that also comes with calling out those who mislabel individuals just because you don’t like what they said. PS Just because Southgate came out and said it’s not to do with BLM, the normal person don’t swallow everything they are told, they see the evidence. They need to keep educating the public on why they are making this stance and work hard to win those over to show it’s important to the players, that’s how you change the people minds that its a genuine platform.

lol no thanks, the politicians created that issue, their problem will always be they don't like to explain themselves except when its an election year, then they still speak a lot of crap.

Your calling a person a member of the KKK, not because he is a racist, although that is what your inferring, but because he doesn't approve of the knee and its association with BLM. You can go on with your diatribe, but saying there is only one what to look at a complex issue, isn't going to engender change in peoples opinions. This is why people don't like BLM, because if you don't agree, your called a racist, that is more reflective of not wanting to discuss the real issues. You just did it yourself, you have no proof, other than the guy saying he doesn't like the knee for virtue signaling, he didn't say he didn't agree with Mings words and stance. I saw (3) different articles this morning stating that Police have identified just under 200 comments being of 'racial' in nature targeted at the players on social media. A majority they believe came from overseas on dodgy accounts. Are they all racist? How many of those people aren't racist in nature but maybe suffering from mental health issues, are young children and don't understand the meaning and the effect these words have etc etc? Don't get me wrong there are racists out there but they generally are the ones who portray themselves as not being racist. On your standards the current American President would be a racist as he eulogized at the funeral of a former KKK member, but the President isn't being held to the same standards you are holding this guy to, how do I know this, because BLM aren't marching through the streets, its hypocrisy at its best. Hence why this guy has an issue with the knee. Racism is a serious and complex issue, I couldn't comprehend what it would be like growing up as Mings or other and the racism they have had to deal with. But you can either be a child or act as a grown up.

That's going a bit far Moto. What Mings and co are doing is positive, but there are still a lot of people who link the knee to the incident that happened in the US and BLM. If you want change you need to bring everyone along with you and the players need to be clear in their messaging to change the perceptions of those people.

That’s not true regarding Hitler. He admired the royal family which had relatives that were in the Nazi Party, and was prepared to sue for peace. If it wasn’t for Churchill things may have been different, his focus was more on spreading east and tackling communism. He formed alliances with Italy and the Japanese, not xenophobic. The Russians killed their own ethnic Jews, gypsies etc during WW2 and had a peace treaty with Germany, the issues of WW2 were a lot more complex than being some form of racist ideology. The Jewish people have been persecuted for 1000’ s of years and continues today. I admire Tyrone for the stance he and other players are taking, I don’t agree with the knee personally because it’s too closely connected to BLM, however saying that, this is the form of protest the players want to use, they should be supported.

I'm not determining whether they are exclusive or intertwined, only those involved know what transpired. The facts are the penalty takers were determined prior to the match, they had a plan. Yet players still put themselves forward to take a penalty knowing that the players had already been selected. My argument has been that Saka in particular didn't have a great game when he came on, the moment probably got to him and probably wasn't a good choice to take a penalty, which should have been picked up by the manager/coaching staff. Maybe some players read the situation better than the manager did and that a change was required?

Well they banned the past US President, how hard is it?

Some unfortunately have missed the points I was trying to make, because they have taken some comments out of context.

Agree. Social media is a cesspool and the owners of those companies could be doing a lot more to prevent this ongoing scourge, but don't.

The interviews I saw had Southgate saying they determined the penalty takers from the work they did in training and they had the plan to bring on those players late if it went to penalties, they players knew. What your talking about is the order they were going in.

I have to respond to my peeps...lol

There's currently two narratives out there or did you bother to take notice? Southgate said the penalty takers were decided on 100's of penalties taken over the past month and the squad knew going into the game who they are. And Jack went up to Southgate saying he would take a penalty. Did Jack miss the meeting? IMO he put himself forward as he wanted to be in the moment, but the decision had already been made. I haven't questioned Jack's ability at any stage, just looked at the evidence. Your problem is your reading into my comments things that arent there, becuase your so blinded by an inability to interpret the facts correctly.

There's two narratives currently out there sunshine, Southgate said that the players knew the penalty takers if it went to penalties prior to the game, they'd spent the last month taking 100's of penalties to decide the takers. The other narrative is Jack went up to Southgate and said he would take a penalty. You all seem to be making assumptions, but not actually reading what is being said.

What I'm saying is there are currently two narratives going around, that the squad knew who was taking penalties if the game went that way and all players had the opportunities to impress during training. The other narrative is Jack went up to Southgate and said I'm ready to take a penalty. PS I never said he didnt want the responsibility, stop making things up. The point being made is people who want to take penalties generally take them, unless it is taken away from them. You think coaches and managers at an elite level don't take those nuances into consideration?

I don't think so, not defending Keane either, think some can't grasp the complexity of some issues.

I’m not your mother mate, do some research.

What is it about people who find one instance to prove their narrative, but conveniently forget the rest of the evidence?

What bottle?

The managers role is also to identify during play that Saka, was not playing well when brought on and playing like a deer in headlights. This isn't an indictment of Saka, the kid is 19 yrs old. Southgate or his coaching staff should have identified it and thought hey, might not be the best idea for the lad to take a penalty. You can have the best laid plans, but in war you need to adapt, and Southgate didn't.

Nor do I.

Just like you can't cherry pick incidents to justify your argument. Where not talking about a player, we're talking about the manager of a country at a major tournament.

Yes you can, its called leadership. Leadership by the manager and leadership from the senior players.