kidlewis

Now for the big one, intelligence CANNOT have been created, and I have 100% bona fide proof of that. Your "creator" must have had it. If intelligence is the result of creation, then the thing that created intelligence was, wait for it, UNINTELLIGENT. Now, as intelligence is simply "the ability to comprehend", and to make something you have to comprehend what you are doing, you have to understand the process you're carrying out, a creator, by definition HAS TO have intelligence.

So, unless you believe intelligence can have occurred by chance, in which case you cannot rule out everything else occurring by chance, your God was either a big dummy or doesn't exist.

Intelligence the result of creation? Where did you get that from?

Why did initial intelligence have to be "created".

because god is the creator of everything, even himself. so he had to create intelligence, otherwise how did he get it? how did he even exist in the beginning?

Now for the big one, intelligence CANNOT have been created, and I have 100% bona fide proof of that. Your "creator" must have had it. If intelligence is the result of creation, then the thing that created intelligence was, wait for it, UNINTELLIGENT. Now, as intelligence is simply "the ability to comprehend", and to make something you have to comprehend what you are doing, you have to understand the process you're carrying out, a creator, by definition HAS TO have intelligence.

So, unless you believe intelligence can have occurred by chance, in which case you cannot rule out everything else occurring by chance, your God was either a big dummy or doesn't exist.

That.....is....****....immense.

Did you come up with that?

that is going to be my sig.....

dude that's awesome

If God must exist, then where did God come from, surely for him to exist he must have been created, for your own very argument is that things cannot poof into existence out of nothing, and evolution cannot account for things such as morals and emotions, they have to have been created, therefore surely so much have intelligence, so any intelligent divine being must, by your very arguments, have been created. Or do the rules not apply to your God?

Sorry Jondaken, could you answer this point raised please, I'm interested to know how you believe God was created.

I don't know is the short answer. If I did, I'd have to BE God wouldn't I?

If it did happen (that is to say, if he was created, and he hasn't just always been there) then it was a long long time ago, I did not exist, noone but God did, and all ive got to go on is a few verses at the start of Genesis and John, so I'd be a bit of a muppet to think that I did know, but no doubt a few of you think I am anyway haha.

And yet you seemingly KNOW that we didn't just evolve, dispite it happening a long long time ago, and you not existing at the time, because, our computers didn't.

Welcome to the world of hypocrisy my friend.

It's hard to get everyone to understand a chain of thought typed down in an hour of why I believe in God. If my argument isnt rock solid its only because I'm human and make mistakes

But anyway, I don't see the hypocrisy. All the other things ive explained because of what ive read in the Bible and what I see around me. The existence of God is not the same argument as how did he come in to being.

Christianity is a faith. Finding proof in a faith is not going to happen, so don't look or ask for it

The hypocrisy is in dismissing that one complex life form can come from nothing, and instead drawing the conclusion it was created, and then accepting that another can, with the reason "I wasn't there to see it so I don't know".

No. The evidence of God existing is still here to be seen. Its everything around me. Its objects, feelings, intelligence. The evidence of things being created, is right there infront of my eyes.

I don't think I needed to be there, when this computer was built, or designed, to know that it was built and designed.

Understand me at all?

But it's not evidence. It's still belief. Evidence implies fact.

But not having evidence doesn't mean it's not right.

well belief in a god is the ONLY aspect of human actions and feelings where not having evidence, proof or fact can still lead to justification.

the more I think about this the more I think it's ridiculous.

He is the creator of all and everything. He creates us, then gives us free will in the hope that we will follow him. But he gives us no indication he exists at all, but tells us to believe in him.

He isn't making things easy for himself is he? in fact he is making it pretty much impossible for anyone to believe in him. Obviously many people do, but it would be interesting to see how people come to believe in a god.

I was tought R.E at school, but never came to the conclusion I came from god.

is that the quote "energy cannot be created or destroyed but can only be transfered"?

so what believers think is "energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can only come from God"?

Basically, yes.

so if he has indeed created all, everything and all that will ever be. He created all religons, therefore all religious beliefs are indeed correct.

Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Christians are all correct in their beliefs.

No. What he "created" was free will. You believe what you want. You make up stories and tell lies if you want.

so why create the 10 commandmants if he created free will? or is that a made up story?

There wouldn't need to be any commandments if free will did not exist would there? He created them so that they would know what to do, or not to do. It was their free will that chose wither to obey them or not. (And btw, for the most part, they did not obey them, not even close)

And on the point of the ten commandments... just to set aside a common misconception!... there were actually a lot more than 10, and they were all for the benefit of the Jews at the time, and not so much for the rest of us anymore. Although ofcoruse, most of the main 10(if not all), do still apply.

Well why do they need to exist if we have free will?

there is no point in rules if you give free will to people. They will make up their own minds regardless of rules laid out by God.

Because he gave us free will in the hope that we would CHOSE to believe in him, and do as he says.

We all have free will yes? Does that stop governments making laws? They make laws for our benefit (on the most part), we can either chose to follow them or chose not to.

so he gave us free will, then told us to believe in him just "because"?

is that the quote "energy cannot be created or destroyed but can only be transfered"?

so what believers think is "energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can only come from God"?

Basically, yes.

so if he has indeed created all, everything and all that will ever be. He created all religons, therefore all religious beliefs are indeed correct.

Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Christians are all correct in their beliefs.

No. What he "created" was free will. You believe what you want. You make up stories and tell lies if you want.

so why create the 10 commandmants if he created free will? or is that a made up story?

There wouldn't need to be any commandments if free will did not exist would there? He created them so that they would know what to do, or not to do. It was their free will that chose wither to obey them or not. (And btw, for the most part, they did not obey them, not even close)

And on the point of the ten commandments... just to set aside a common misconception!... there were actually a lot more than 10, and they were all for the benefit of the Jews at the time, and not so much for the rest of us anymore. Although ofcoruse, most of the main 10(if not all), do still apply.

Well why do they need to exist if we have free will?

there is no point in rules if you give free will to people. They will make up their own minds regardless of rules laid out by God.

is that the quote "energy cannot be created or destroyed but can only be transfered"?

so what believers think is "energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can only come from God"?

Basically, yes.

so if he has indeed created all, everything and all that will ever be. He created all religons, therefore all religious beliefs are indeed correct.

Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Christians are all correct in their beliefs.

No. What he "created" was free will. You believe what you want. You make up stories and tell lies if you want.

so why create the 10 commandmants if he created free will? or is that a made up story?

is that the quote "energy cannot be created or destroyed but can only be transfered"?

so what believers think is "energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can only come from God"?

Basically, yes.

so if he has indeed created all, everything and all that will ever be. He created all religons, therefore all religious beliefs are indeed correct.

Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Christians are all correct in their beliefs.

bottom line - if a creationist falls ill - he shouldn't be treated by any modern medicine.

Err... all medicine is created by things that where put on this earth to begin with.

If a scientist falls ill, he should not be given anything, because what does it matter if he lives or dies? His life means nothing, and neither does anyone elses, so why go through the effort to save a meaningless life?

er....because he will be dead and people will get upset?

plus as human beings we have emotional and moral standing to do something about it?

is that the quote "energy cannot be created or destroyed but can only be transfered"?

so what believers think is "energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can only come from God"?

bottom line - if a creationist falls ill - he shouldn't be treated by any modern medicine.

not neccesarily because they will believe god is in all of us and created everything. Therefore they should get whatever they want.

Although am not sure why Jehova's and other faiths don't accept blood transfusions.

if that something to do with contaminating the "soul"?

of the BBC’s incessant Darwin Festival

Darwin was a charlatan ..see George Combes "the constitution of man" 1828 .... what Darwin really did was bring it to the masses due to him being a leading scientist of that day thanks to his "journal of research " (or the voyage of the beagle , to you )

is he the dude that worked out the brain considted of different bits each did their own thing?

cannot remember what it's called now. We have a model in our science lab that broke down the brain....

On a perpendicular note...

You - sin bin for quoting Hitchens. :winkold:

Off you go now. Very, very naughty.

He always sounds like Kevin out of Kevin and Perry

"Shut UP I can make my own decisions ya know!".

he basically doesn't like anyone or anything to try andaid him make up his own mind. He acts as though he doesn't need to learn anything.

Watch

Seen it loads of times, funny as fook.

not just funny, but it also makes you think too.

to be fair, if anything I would worship the sun. Doesn't matter about God, if we didn't have that we would die pretty darn fast.

I gather from Jondaken's stance is that computers were created by man, whose thoughts and actions come directly from god. He told the people to create the computer, becuase everything both physical and mental comes from him regardless if it is man made or not.

God is the creator of all and everything and we are NOT free thinkers, because god is in all of us and everything we touch and see and feel and smell and think about. he even created the devil and evil.

he judges us all through his own eyes.

I guess my description is a very simplistic view, but religion in itself is incredibly simple.

God is ALL, end of discussion and I just cannot agree with that.

It means he created rape, harold shipman, hitler and allowed all those things to happen.

I think good old Stevie Hawkx is of the same belief as Einstein, and I think Sir Robert Winston has a similar view (although he was and is still a practicing Jew).

Because they are the pioneers of science, they are venturing into the unknown when it comes to human perception of "what is" and I think have to be completely open about existence in order to come to a conclusion.

I think I am in fairly good company too, the most famous scientist of them all (Einstien) also believed in God.

I always thought his view was more agnostic.

just taking one quote as an example:

"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man."

that to me is a statement from an agnostic not of a believer in a God.

Not me. I was raised as a Catholic but now i'm an Atheist and believe in Science.

And why can't God and Science be the same thing?

because the text faith is based upon contradicts science in about 1000 different ways, and which faith is the "true" god?

only one of the religon's is correct, so which one?

(big brother voice)

Ewe Decide!

I really wanted to beat Everton and go through but we didn't perform on the day. We gave the ball away far more than in the past 10-11 games. We created chances and we could have won the game, but we didn't execute them well at all.

Lets hope we can raise it for Moscow on wednesday.

Ferris Buellers Day off

If you had a fit bird, would you try it on with 2 ugly birds knowing that you could get caught, and lose your fit bird... and maybe not even get anywhere with the ugly ones?

but we don't have a fit bird, we have just been chatting to her and we aren't sure if she wants us yet.

and they aren't ugly bird, one is pretty decent.

So people would rather win one game that MIGHT see us finish fourth than win two cup ties that would DEFINITELY put us through to the next rounds?

I'd rather finish 5th and win either cup

I wouldn't because we already have 4th in my opinion, we have already done enough.

Its Feb!!?? Not May!

Im with BCV 100%

Arsenal will only get 6 maybe 7 points from their last 5 games.

Says who? BBC predictor?

We MAY lose to chelsea, get knocked out of UEFA Cup, knocked out of the FA Cup and then we have - Man U away, Liverpool away, Man City away, Everton home, Spurs home

We COULD by the end of March have blown everything and season be over. Not saying we will, but it is a possibilty.

At the end of the season, if we have win the FA Cup and you go to Wembley and Villa finish 5th- I will PM you and ask you this " do you wish we got knocked out by Everton, or do wish we beat Chelsea? "

The answer will be easy

yeah I will take the F.A cup thanks. All of this is hypothetical situations, your hypothetical guess work holds as much water as mine.

sorry meant a maximum of 9 points in their last 6. forgot about Portsmouth

So people would rather win one game that MIGHT see us finish fourth than win two cup ties that would DEFINITELY put us through to the next rounds?

I'd rather finish 5th and win either cup

I wouldn't because we already have 4th in my opinion, we have already done enough.

Its Feb!!?? Not May!

Im with BCV 100%

Arsenal will only get 6 maybe 7 points from their last 5 games.