CVByrne

I was making the point that you were only talking about now with regard to the effectiveness of unions in a private sector scenario whereas you had been complaining that over the past x years a gap had occurred between public sector and private sector pay. Perhaps the private sector workers might have got together in those times if they were indeed being screwed over by their bosses (highly likely) and stood up for themselves. In those circumstances they might now be railing against the system which has failed them rather than against other people who are not allowing themselves to be screwed over as much. I see, in some cases I'm sure you're right. The private sector is a big sector though so it's hard to know who has been exploited and who has not. But the Public Private gap was that the Private Sector was paid more than the public sector, which was correct at the time. Benchmarking came in and addressed that inbalance, but the problem occured when the benchmarking had achieved it's purpous. It then over the past 5 or 6 years widened the gap the other way in which Public were payed more than private. It was always talked about and the Government said they would address it but large budget surpluses made it very hard to tackle when we were awash with money. The failure to tackle that has contributed to our current situation, those surpluses were because of Stamp Duty on property and capital gains taxes, revenue which has dried up.

My bank made a profit this year. My section, Capital Markets, made a big profit.

That is a childish response and of course misses the point entirely Plenty of people I work with and plenty of my friends call in sick the odd time after being out drinking. I because of my fathers influence drag myself out of bed and go into work hungover.

Perhaps they are different because they got together and showed that they were not going to be shoved around by those people making decisions about their jobs and pay? I don't understand that statement? Please explain to me how a 30% budget defecit can be tackled by not cutting public sector pay?

I was complaining because our contractual bonus was posponed indefinitley, it is part of my salary that I will always get if I meet the goals set for me. I don't get it all if I don't meet my goals. Simple incentive to work hard. Now because of the stigma associated with the word Bonus I'm not getting it because of the public backlash on the Government. It is, quite simply, a pay cut. It's happened, I'm not going to complain to the bankers Union, times are tough and if a pay cut helps the Government in the Public Sector pay talks which will benefit the country as a whole then it's a fair price to pay. But the Public Sector don't see it that way, the public finances have to be sorted out without cutting their pay. They're used to getting what they want so all this is new to them.

Have you ever been ill? No I seem to have a very strong immune system but I've felt unwell before but nothing to stop me going to work. I was trying to say I've never taken casual sick leave like most people do from time to time. Usually after a nights drinking.

That is utter nonsense Ian. I work damn hard in work and nothing makes me prouder than when my boss does my anual review and puts my contribution down for the year as exceeds expectations. I'm rewarded for my hardwork for that year, I'm happy and I try to maintain that level of hard work, because I know I'll be rewarded for it. People work hard to get promotions, but they don't come ever year, bonuses are there to reward you every year for your work. I think capping them at 20% is necessary though. That is enough to incentivise people to work hard. Anything more would be excess and are only paid to traders based on "profits" for that year. Incentivising them to take risks for short term profits. It's wrong and this mess has proved it wrong. But hammering all bankers and all people who recieve bonuses because of this abuse is just plain wrong

Were these companies losing money for the last decade? Why didn't private sector workers do something then? No these companies are only now in the recession making huge losses and need to cut staff and pay to survive, retail is an example of this. People are not spending and shops have less income and can't afford to pay staff. No amount of Union threats can change that fact. So why is the public sector different? A HUGE hole in the public finances to the tune of 30% appeared in 1 year. How can that be addressed without some pay cuts?

I see nothing wrong in performance related bonuses IF things are going well .... the banking sector is not unique in that regard ... Thing is , lets say you work in a department that has made £100m profit for the year and you've worked hard to help it achieve that .. the department next door makes a loss of say £100m .. should you be penalised for that other departments loss ? or should you get paid a bonus ?? as to his comment " it risks alienating ordinary people if it gave its traders and bosses "exorbitant" bonuses " I wonder what the ordinary people think about MP's expenses ... MP's are not really in any position to preach ...are they ? Spot on. To delve into that a bit more, what about back and middle office areas that do the same work regardless of the profit and loss of traders? People there get paid bonuses based on how hard they worked that year. S o the person who sat around not doing much doesn't get paid as much as the guy who worked hard. It's a system that incentivises people to work hard and they will be rewarded. And remember there is no paid overtime, so sticking round to do that extra work after your working day is over can only rewarded in the bonus. Someone tell me how that system is wrong, how those people are the reason for the ills of the world and why they should be denied modest bonuses of 10-20% for their hard work just because traders and executives took huge risks to maximise yearly profits and pay themselves obscene bonuses of 100 or 200%?

Nothing? Are private sector banned from joining unions? No. Well looks like that's where your problem is. If the workers don't get organised they get fkd over. And the ones that get fkd over point at the ones that get organised and howl 'not fair'. Same argument over state pensions has been going in the UK for the past 3 years, all because the private sector workers meekly gave up their pension rights whilst the public sector decided not to be pussies and fought to keep the rights they had been promised. Private Sector have unions but when a company has lost loads of money and simply can't pay their workers anymore what can a Union do? The Company needs to lay people off, cut pay or go bust. The Government are in that situation right now, our tax take is down some 15bln, from around 60bln to just above 40bln. How can they now borrow to pay public sector wages? By doing so they will have to pay higher interest on that borrowing and there by worsening the financial situation. They've already raised taxes and are now broadening the tax base too. So please tell me what they should do if they can't cut any public sector pay?

Nonsense. Most people who work in banks are hard working people on a normal wage. The system is to incentivise workers to do their best so part of your wage is paid as a bonus for your work. You meet targets and you get the bonus, you don't and you wont. Just because it's called a bonus does not mean it's on top of your ordinary salary, it's a guaranteed as your monthly wage. It's part of your income. It's a brilliant system when implemented correctly. Reward people for hard work and don't reward people who don't work hard. It's stigmatised now because certain people get obscene bonuses which is wrong. But don't go think everyone who gets a bonus doesn't deserve it. If you meet your goals and don't get it it's a pay cut simple as that. Since it's in your contract as part of your salary.

People think bonuses are evil and should not be paid to these banker becuase they got us into this mess etc... Totally unfair. Bonuses are contractual and are there to reward hard work. Back office workers who do the same job regardless of the economic situation deserve their bonuses and bonuses are there to reward the staff on their efforts that year. Bonuses to executives are wrong considering it's their fault the banks are in trouble. But saying ordinary workers should take a pay cut is wrong. Bonuses are contractual, they are paid if you meet goals and are there to incentivise people to do their best. It's a system that should be applauded and implemented everywhere to reward hard work. I despise the stigmatisation of the work bonus. It's a person salary nothing else.

No I think people should get pay increases in their jobs but not via Union talks directly with the Government. It's unfair and has just served to widen the public private pay gap and increases resentment between the two sectors. The Public Sector Unions have had the Government over barrels, every budget surplus we had they wanted for their workers without any Public Sector reform. I don't agree in blanket pay rises, I believe people who deserve them should get them and lazy workers who don't pull their weight should not benefit. Personally I'd rather performance related bonuses so that good workers are rewarded and those dead weight workers who give the sector a bad name are not rewarded. My main beef with anyone in this world is I hate lazy people who don't try their best, who leech off the hard work of others. That is where my problem with the Public Sector comes from, people getting my tax money because of the bargaining of Unions and threat of industrial action rather than through hard work and improved services. I have never taken a sick day in my life, I never come to work late, I've never asked for a pay increase, I've never asked for anything. My hard work is rewarded by my employer and I just wish everywhere was like that to at least some degree.

look at it this way, if a company takes in less money and is infinancial trouble it will have to lay off staff or bring in pay cuts. The same thing is happening with the Government finances and pay cuts for workers is a necessity. Only difference is the Uions rule thing country and can fight tooth and nail for theirmembers. The workers in the Private Sector dont. They just take it on the chin as there is nothing they can do.

I just googled public private pay gap and got that finfacts. But papers have been full of facts and opinions on the whole matter. Can I ask do you currently live in Ireland HolteExile? As for **** the teachers. I mean I'm fed up with people bringing up teachers and Nurses to defend their arguements about the Public Sector. They are a small portion of the sector. Nobody bring out a civil servant in from the Dept of Agriculture or a middle manager in the HSE. The simple fact is teachers work far less hours and get amazing holidays yet get paid a very good wage, more than in other countries. Just because you're a teacher doesn't mean you're some kind of saint, I have plenty of friends who are primary teachers and are in it for the excellent holidays and easy working hours. They're no saints. They have it pretty handy actually. Per hour they are paid a very large sum that is for sure. I shall always be of the opinion that people knew what the job they applied for was and how much it paid. Once you get the job it's unfair to get a powerful union to go and get you more money. Nobody has that option in the private sector. If you want more money get promoted. If you can't in the Public Sector you should have worked in the private sector where your hard work would be rewarded with a promotion. One thing is for certain there will be zero public support for any industrial action by public sector workers so it will not happen.

Have a read of this to explain with more coherence and accuracy than I can about Public Private pay gap in Ireland. http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015576.shtml

Problem was our budget surpluses came from stamp duty on property sales, money that was never sustainable and was bound to end at some point. The scale of our public finances mess is astonishing. Governmet had budgeted for 60bln in tax and only took in 40bln. That is a substantial hole, how on earth could it be tackled without touching anyones pay in the public sector? We need to bring that 60bln figure down by pay and spending cuts and bring that 40bln figure up by broadening the tax base. We're going to need to borrown 15bln this year just to survive. It's a catastrophy.

Clarry you are spot on. Let me try to explain the huge anger felt by private sector workers now. In ireland we had a system called benchmarking which was supposed to link public sector pay to private sector. It worked until the recent years of large budget surpluses in which case it has passed the private sector in terms of pay. Also the defined benefit pensions they also had were not a big thing until the recent collapse of private sector defined contribution pensions. So now when our number of unemployed has doubled in a year and people in the private sector take pay cuts, (substantial in my case of 20%), the public sector are asked to share the pain and pay a levy on their pensions of 4-10%. Which they refused to take, now please someone tell me how it's fair that they have powerful Unions to fight for them yet the millions in private sector have nobody to fight for them? One very excellent quote was "how do you benchmark against a P45 (pink slip)". You can't because nobody in Public sector will ever get one. I must stress this has nothing at all to do with British public sector which is totally different to Ireland, they do not have this benchmarking process. Yes I have had a long standing anger at the Public Sector Unions but now the end has come people have looked around to see where all the money has gone. It's gone to certain over paid public servants. Some Public sector workers, in particular the Garda (police) are shockingly under paid while other areas are vastly over paid, why should a starting Central statistics Officer be paid 45,000? for example. It's a big complex mess, but I don't have unfounded anger or allegations. Go read some editorials in the Irish Times.

I think you had better get digging, then. It might put the spade you have been using in your previous posts to better use. A big point I need to make. People who are not from Ireland has no frame of reference. Our public sector is completely and utterly different to the British one. Looks like the Public sector won't/can't go on strike because there isn't one ounce of sympathy for the private sector. New record amount of people have become unemployed this month. I got confirmation today of what I expected. 20% pay cut. At least I still have a job.

This is the biggest load of rubbish I've ever read. Public sector are paid FAR more than the private sector. FACT. No disputing that at all. I can dig up reams of articles to state as much. Just google it. Public Sector pensions are miles better than private, by approx 20% it has been said. FACT. Public sector are the ones who've benefited MOST from the boom and benchmarking. People like to point to Laywers, Doctors, Bankers, Accountants etc.. who get more than the public sector workers. We'll there's a little thing people left out there, those people are the cream of the academic crop, they of course are going to get paid more than someone who goes into the public sector and more than 99% of the private sector who run businesses, who built homes, who work in shops. All these people are being hammered, taking pay cuts, losing their jobs at DELL, and the **** public sector who have always had it better won't take a smll pay cut. People are SEETHING with anger. I know people who have lost their jobs. Go tell them you won't take a 3.8% pension levy. Just because they don't have the powerful Unions to lay demands directly at the governments feet mean they are taking the hit. Noone else. WAKE THE **** UP.

Nonsense, my point was (through the anger) that teachers and nurses are the pople who are never attacked because they are the jobs which generate the sympathy from the public. Nobody was on RTE news sayng how much that civil servant in the department of agriculture will have to pay. Bottom line is it's not nice having you pay cut. But it sure as hell is alot nicer than losing you job and pension like the people from Waterford Wedgewood. People in the public sector are sheltered and I know plenty of teachers who live comfortable and they're in their 20's. So there is always some people who are going to take a hit they can't afford and that is unfortunate but inevitable. We need to stop worrying about 4% of our pay and look at the people who have lost everything and get a bit of perspective. All these poor teachers and nurses (my brother is a nruse) life comfortable, they've cars and homes and tv's and all still go drinking every weekend. People can afford these cut backs we just don't want them, myself included, but I would not argue with any tax increases or reasonable pay cuts because I have got some perspective of how **** we are if we don't get the public finances in order, our AAA rating will be gone and borrowing will cost more hence worsening our financial situation and will result in more pay cuts.

Teachers won't lose their jobs, they'll pay a levy on their pensions, they'll still be there to teach our children. Thousands of people are losing their jobs every week. Our Budget deficit will take 5 years to fix. We are not in a recession, we're in a black hole and people who are sheltered in the public sector need to wake the **** up. As for the 10% it can be a mix of increased tax and pay cuts, pay cuts can save business from going bust and hence keep people in employment meaning people paying tax and not taking benefit. Also pay cut in public sector reduced expenditure. We're already heading for deflation so that part is inevitable. My main anger is that we don't have the courage to face reality and work together like we did before and save this country. We're more concerned with blame and taking care of our own pockets. When asked to take a pay cut and Irish person will list his or her 10 reasons why others should take cuts before you.

Our Government has to fix our budget and needs the public sector to take their share of the cuts. With a levy on their defined benefit pensions. 1.4bln is all, and the Social Partnership couldn't accept it. Industrial action looks liley and Moodys will downgrade our AAA status and hence our cost of borrowing will go up hence requiring more cuts and the spiral of doom. The usual crap is wheeled out saying the poor teachers, poor nurses blah blah. **** the teachers, they earn a **** fortune for doing half a years work. Straight out of College a teacher starts on 37,000. Thats 33,000 sterling, plus amazing pension and job for life. They're asked to take a 3.8% levy on their pensions like all public servants and they wont. Nobody wants to take a pay cut, but people need to think of the people who are losing their jobs every **** day in the Private Sector, who's pension funds are gone bust. Tell them you won't take a 3.8% levy. **** disgrace. This country will never get out of this if the small first step like this leads to industrial action. Anyone earning over 40,000 a year should take a 10% pay cut. EVERONE. That would be brave and could save our country. We won't because we're greedy and selfish.

No Ian. We were worthless poor depressed people in the 80's slaves to a despicable Catholic Curch. We make some very hard decisions and decided to work together to make Ireland a better place. We cut corporate tax to invite foreign investment, we created the social partnership so there would be no industrial action. We make 3rd Level education free to build an educated state. All of this created the Celtic Tiger and was a credit to this country. But then we got greedy, we wanted money, more money and still want it. The more money we got the more inflation increased and the more pay increaes the Unions wanted. We paid huge public sector pay increases far beyond all European countries. How did we afford it? Of course we funded it with non sustainable stamp duties on property. We had a holy trinity of greed the Government, Property Developers and Banks. All equally to blame in all of this, but the people most to blame our ourselves, we were far more greedy than even them. What do you expect banks to do? Make money What do you expect Property Developers to do? Make themselves money What do you expect the Government to do? Buy Votes and get re-elected. But we were happy to play this game and we went property mad. You can't place the blame with them when nobody forced you to take out a 100% mortgage and buy a rediculously over priced house. Then people wanted another house becuase their neighbour had one and property prices only go one way. Greed Greed Greed. Now we want to blame someone, it has fallen to the banks to take the blame. Despite the fact the entire world banking system is in tatters, only the banks in your country are the evil ones, they did all the harm to you. Now we're back in the 80's, our country is a mess we can make the hard decisions and get us out of this. But we can't because we're not the brave people we once were, we're greedy **** cowards who deserve every single thing we get. We just want to blame someone other than accept we're all to blame in this mess. All the respect I have for my country is gone, the last of it died today. The brave thing would be cross party decisions on how to fix our country and we should accept their decisions, regardless of how much they take from our pay. We're all over paid as it is.

You're having a laugh. All our politician are criminals, but we re-elect them, we don't care they're lining their pockets while in Government. We don't seem to care they pay themselves more than any government in all of Europe. Our Prime Minister is paid more than Barak Obama FFS. And He sure as hell has never smiled the fat toad wasn't even elected. Bertie just took his pile of money and **** off leaving us in this mess. Unions are now going to fight for every penny and our country will grind to a halt, implode and become Iceland 2. Simply put we all are over paid. We should all take pay cuts of at least 10% to bring competitiveness back. But we won't because we're all greedy, selfish cowards.