dundeevilla

All species are constantly evolving - the process hasn't stopped and it never will as long as there is life. Monkey's didn't "stay the same" they evolved - into monkeys! Mankind and apes both evolved from a common ancestor. Read a book about evolution as you don't appear to fully understand it. You might find it interesting and it will answer all your questions.

With all due respect you haven't anwered any of the questions I asked you on this thread Julie. You've said that rods turned into snakes, Adam and Eve existed and science has backed this up, evolution is false and that belief in a supernatural creator is scientific. These claims are are easily dismissed Im afraid - there is no point discussing them seriously because quite frankly they are ludicrous. I really don't mean to sound partonising at all, but do I feel sorry for you if you honestly believe all this stuff and live your life according to it. It makes me quite sad. :|

Pope's in the news today

Can you please point me to these studies as I would be very interested to read them. Who carried them out, where, and are the papers available to read. Thanks.

Like I said I will take your word for it. As others have said in this thread, there is serious doubt over whether people like Moses even existed.You stated as fact a while back that rods turned into snakes, so excuse me if I'm a wee bit sceptical at what you're saying about Moses etc. We can substitute 'Bronze age farmers' for 'Bronze Age people who had no real understanding about the world or the universe, so instead they invented stuff to explain their existence, which in their position was an understandable thing to do. However, there is no excuse for believing today what they believed back then.'

We haven't come to a consensus on that one Some would say millions of human years old, some would say as little as 6 thousand. Yep, they can't even agree amongst themselves on the basics. Surley god should have made this kind of stuff perfectly clear in the bible. Maybe he forgot.... :?

Actually the bit at the end says the opposite...according to Exodus...many many Egyptians left Egypt and became alien residents and became part of the nation of Israel. Under the Mosaic law those alien residents were to be treated kindly the same as any Israelite. All God asked was that Pharaoh let the Israelites go...however they were slaves and the Egyptian's no doubt made good use of them ..using them to do all the tasks they didn't wish to carry out. It was Pharaoh who bought the plagues on his people by ignoring Moses's plea...according to Exodus Yep those Egyptian b@st*rds deserved some severe punishment. Good ol' God, in his infinite loving wisdom, showed them what for. Its a real pity he didn't show up to smite Hitler and the Nazis in the same way. God's been a bit quiet recently when you think about it. A flurry of activity several millennia ago - and nothing since. It's enough to make you think it's just made up.

:shock:

At last, something we agree on! :angel:

Sorry to pull you up again mate, but you've just spent the last 26 pages 'pretending to know the mind of god' by attempting to tell us what he is all about, trying to justify the concept of 'free will' etc. At least you've given up and are admitting you don't know. That's a start.

Here's a selection..... Joshua the next writer.... was King of Judah and also served as Moses's right hand man until his death..he was a mighty king who faced up to the surrounding nations including the Canaanites and the inhabitants of Jericho...Apparently blessed with an abundance of wisdom he successfully apportioned the land within the tribes of Judah and put into place the organisational process for the lands to be governed fairly and justly in accordance with the Mosaic Law, which he did his best to uphold. Hardly the actions of a Bronze Age Farmer! Samuel - Was bought up as a Nazrite by High Priest Eli...he became highly educated and a respected priest of the house of Jehovah. He catalogued the whole of Kings including the pagan nations around them, which can be testified to from archaelogical records such as the Canaaanites and their worship of Baal. He did not hold back in his honest appraisal of God's people or their failings. He anointed Saul as the first King of Israel and then watched and recorded his subsequent downfall He stood up to King David over his dealings with Bathsheba...and again recorded the house of Israel's misdemeanors as well as their triumphs. The Bible writers in complete contrast to the nations surrounding them historically reported failures and defeats as they happened. If character's failed as Kings..or were disobedient this was written. Wheras other's like....Egyptian Pharoah's had people and Cities wiped from records as they saw fit. Hardly any defeats were recorded in ancient writings normally, only lavish victories. The Bible stands out for this. I'll take your word for it, all fascinating stuff. These guys must have know what they were talkin' about for sure. I think I'll base my entire existence and worldview around what they;ve got to say... :winkold: Christianity's beliefs hinge on Jesus Christ, yes. The people who recorded his story (or the various different versions of it (you'd have thought the word of god would be a bit more consistent, who were they?

Stan the Man. He's been quietly awesome.

Great, good for Moses. What about all the others?

Who said I thought it was a joke? So your argument is, if I understand correctly - We made our own future, but God still knows what that future is going to be before it happens, therefore we have free will. Think about what you've just said. It makes no logical sense.

With all due respect the comments you've made on evolution in this thread have been nonsense so far, giving the impression you know absolutely nothing about it. If you do indeed "know more about it than most people" I apologise, although in my own defence you have not shown that to be true thus far. I look forward to some well thought-out answers from yourself, instead of your previous "have you read the bible lately" type reponses.

I take it you don't want to talk about evolution anymore - you've ignored all the points I've made. The truth of the Bible is a whole other debate surely. But does God know everything, is he omnisicient in your opinion? IF there is a God, then its not a matter if he is omnisicient or not. He would not be God if he wasnt. He does know everything, but that does not mean that he made any decisions for us. Just because he knows our future does not mean he made it that way. So you admit God knows our future - which means 'free will' does not exist. Thank you. Your particular religion's version of god is logically impossible. PS: If "he did not make it that way" then who did??? Is this your way of admitting your god is not omnipotent after all?? Blimey, he looks more and more unlikely by the minute.

I've asked you several questions Julie, but you don't seem interested in answering. Let's just leave it.

Random mutations of genes when replicating. Most of the time they just clone themselves perfectly. Every now and again they make a 'mistake' and mutate. Sometimes it results in a 'runaway' growth (cancer) sometimes it results in something that is non-viable (dies). Sometimes it results in a slight enhancement, but always there's a slight change. Yes I understand that we change, but why? There must be something that "decides" it wants to change. You don't understand evolution. Seriously, why not read a book on it? The information is even freely available on the internet. Read it - it might change your worldview. Read the Bible recently? Blimey what is it with you religious types? - you find it hard to answer a straight question. We are not talking about the Bible here are we - we were talking about evolution. And yes I have read it but not recently. I take it from your answer you'll to continue to live your life in ignorance and are happy to carry on blindly taking your worldview from the Bible, a 2000-year-old book written by Bronze Age farmers that's supposedly the world of God but is so full of contradictions that you could write another book on them. Fair enough. All the best with that. Us here in the real world prefer to live an educated and enlightened existence in which we're not motivated to be good boys and girls cos we're scared we'll be sent to burn in a fiery pit by your "loving" fictional deity.

Random mutations of genes when replicating. Most of the time they just clone themselves perfectly. Every now and again they make a 'mistake' and mutate. Sometimes it results in a 'runaway' growth (cancer) sometimes it results in something that is non-viable (dies). Sometimes it results in a slight enhancement, but always there's a slight change. Yes I understand that we change, but why? There must be something that "decides" it wants to change. You don't understand evolution. Seriously, why not read a book on it? The information is even freely available on the internet. Read it - it might change your worldview.

I take it you don't want to talk about evolution anymore - you've ignored all the points I've made. The truth of the Bible is a whole other debate surely. But does God know everything, is he omnisicient in your opinion?

Nope. I think you have evolution confused with X-men. ? Evolution. According to people that don't believe in a God, our body's think for themselves in how they want to change. Certainly no-one in history has claimed they had a kid different to themselves because they decided evolution needing a little push. Couldn't "evolution" be the work of God? You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Forgive me, but this is what often gets my goat about people who question the theory of evolution - they have absolutely no knowledge of it yet they are convinced it's wrong. And they make no effort to educate themselves - preferring to remain ignorant (probably because they know it's incompatible with bronze age belief systems).

Sorry it is exactly what it says on the box...a theory! If you choose to believe it is a fact then it is your choice... We had a huge discussion about Evolution V Creation a couple of years ago and there are scientific holes in the theory of Evolution as I see it...you may feel different..that is your choice. The house I live in had a designer an architect, a builder a maker.. You would laugh at me if I suggested otherwise. Yet I look at a beautiful flower in my garden and am expected to accept it had no designer, no creator it just happened as part of the natural order according to the theory of Evolution, put forward by fellow humans. Beleif in a Creator of the natural laws that govern our Universe and of the creations that lie within that Universe are in my book scientific... Free will does not contradict there being a Creator as I've tried to explain in previous posts. As I've stated on numerous occasions in this thread it is up to each of us to make up our own minds. Sorry but all you're demonstrating here Julie is that you don't understand evolution. Evolution is fact - the theory of evolution explains the mechanics of how it happens. There is not serious scientific argument over whether evolution happens or not. So it's not "just a theory". This is a very basic misunderstanding. Do you also think that gravity is "just a theory"? I thought you said you had studied evolution. Can you expand on what the "scientific holes" are and why they bring evolution into question? Your house was made by humans, which evolved, as did the flowers in your garden. The theory of evolution explains why the flowers you see in your garden look like they do. If you believe they were created the way they appear in your garden today, then you're ignoring observable reality. Sorry, but belief in something that can't be tested (a creator) is not scientific, even if it is in your book. You will need to expand on your explanation of free will as I can't remember what you said previously. If free will does exist as a concept it means that god is not omniscient - do you accept that? Enjoying the debate by the way

Used to love Sarah, but she's gone to skin and bone :cry:

Not true. There is no controversy in the scientific community over the theory of evolution. Scientists continue to argue over its finer points and refine the theory - that's what science does - but there is no argument over whether evolution happens. Evolution is a fact. Of course there will always be a few scientists who dispute evolution, but these people are usually funded by organisations like Answers In Genesis and are usually not even biologists. There is zero evidence for intelligent design, which is just creationism with a fancy name. None of this answers the question I asked, as to why you can't reconcile the theory of evolution with the complexity of life we see on Earth. The theory explains that complexity in fairly simple terms - that's the entire basis of it. If you've studied it, then what is it in the theory that you find hard to accept in terms of the compexity of life we see? Belief in a creator is about as non-scientific as you can get I'm afraid. Science looks to explain the universe by employing testable evidence. Religion explains the universe with magic. There is no scientific test for supernatural beings. Also, 'free will' is a logical fallacy if you believe that God is omniscient. See previous posts.

Ah right, he chooses not to interfere. That's not what you said though - you said he had no control over us. You say he chooses not to interfere, but he used to interfere quite a lot if you believe the Bible. Bellowing down orders to Abraham and Moses, talking to Adam, impregnating virgins, sending his son to walk among us, dispatching angels to talk to shepherds etc. Why do you think he gave up on this interference?? Strange innit. Another point, on free will. If you believe that God is all-knowing and knows everything that will happen in our lives, then free will is a nonsense. If he knows every single decision we will take and what will happen as result, then our lives are mapped out for us and free will is an illusion. If you say he doesn't know what we're going to do, then he's not an all-knowing god. Your thoughts Jondaken? Bumped in the hope of of a response from Jandaken....