Awol

Hang on, your a supporter of Afghan intervention allegedly? Back tracking now? We creamed the IRA, they came to the table because they had lost.

Ner ner ne ner ner! You my friend need a healthy dose of reality.

so I have to asked would this include being told to torture people you knwo to be innocent and the extremes we saw with Hitler/Stalin, just because you are told to do so ... not having a go but at some point if you don;t believe in something you have to step out You've never heard of the Geneva conventions then Ian? All military personnel have to follow orders unless and until they believe it be an illegal order. For example, "Sergeant Major, go and kill me some babies so we can have a BBQ" is not a legal order and if followed would lead to prosecution. However "Sergeant Major we are deploying to Iraq on the orders of the British Government" is a legal order and must therefore be obeyed.

Fair enough, out of interest - in this context - what are yours? Edit: Apologies for pretty much repeating TT's point above.

^Belgium. They've been itching to do it for years.

No, there isn't really a choice at all. Scenario: We're going to be invaded so you either: a) die fighting in the army. Or die on your front lawn when the 'bad guys' arrive. You really think if the country was going to be over run and destroyed that half the male population would say," nah mate, not my responsibility". I don't think as much of the UK as I used to but it's clearly still more than you do!

Doesn't seem like there is much of a choice in your scenario mate!

England winning the world cup. The greater good and all that.

I have been thinking the same mate. Ahem. The post above your's Ian: Klar?

Of course he can't, can you prove it wouldn't be in the UK? By which I mean without quoting wiki references to a society packed full of firearms across the ocean that isn't the UK? so if you can't quote the only western country with it then simply there is no evidence surely you can compare murder rates between states or even in one state alone that does not have the death penalty no wiki refence but this from the guardian about New york people are so glib to claimn it is a deterrent with no evidence at all suggesting it is and in fact evidence suggest it makes no difference whatsover Ian I have just done a quick google and figures from 1994 showed over 200 million privately held firearms in the USA. Assuming that equates to 50% of the general population being tooled up if you extrapolate that to the UK we'd be looking at 30 million privately held firearms of various sizes from pistols to heavy machine guns. That might make quite a difference to the UK murder rate imho, capital punishment or not. Now do you understand why your constant references to America when we are debating something's relevance to the UK are about as useful as tits on a fish? You are utterly incapable of proving your own position but continue to shout that people should prove there's when no comparable situation exists. This is just opinion and neither side of the debate can 'prove' anything.

Of course he can't, can you prove it wouldn't be in the UK? By which I mean without quoting wiki references to a society packed full of firearms across the ocean that isn't the UK?

Hanging. Cheap, instant and painless if done correctly. I wouldn't go in for the more exotic suggestions because the penalty would be losing your life and should be done in the most humane way possible. And no, I don't see that as a contradiction before it's jumped on.

Tell the lefties, they'll start a campaign for you :winkold:

Haven't had time to read the thread but opt out system for me and I wouldn't. If I'm dead slice and dice me and take what you can use. I wouldn't need it anymore and if it helps someone live then crack on. I'd steer clear of my lungs and liver though, a smoker with a liking for single malt. The rest is A1.

indeed Mike. Surely an advanced and progressive society should be based upon more than simply the fear of breaking the rules/laws, and the consequences of that. if beating someone to a pulp became legal tomorrow, i wouldn't simply take my baseball bat onto the streets, and beat up those i don't like. IMHO, out actions are not solely governed by the fear or punishment/retribution/revenge. For some maybe they are, but surely we live by our own moral code/judgements too? Jon I think you have an admirable but misplaced faith in human nature. The veneer of society is very very thin and when the threat of sanction for your actions is removed people can do unspeakable things. Ask any squaddie who served in the Balkans during the wars there, it certainly changed my entire belief of what society really is - a means to control the animal that lives just below the surface and is kept in check by the implicit threat of punishment. Just because you wouldn't take a bat to those you didn't like doesn't mean they wouldn't do so unfortunately. (Not that I could imagine anyone harbouring those feelings toward you obviously :winkold: )

They are in the real world, but the crimes which need to be tackled which will make a difference just wouldn't come under the death penalty. It's tackling those crimes which would make the streets safer in real terms and that's what I care about. I'll also reiterate rape and paedophilia are not going to be solved by a death penalty nor is it a correct punishment IMO. It wouldn't be workable with rape and paedophilia is a mental illness IMO. On your second point I'd imagine there is a connection between poverty and random stabbings and poverty and crime in general. Tackling that issue is where we can make the real difference, not just some airy fairy ill thought out idea about a one stop 'hang em all' solution. Your point about lower level crime is more than valid but I don't think anyone on this thread has argued for "hang em all" solution at all. Also on paedophilia I think you are confusing mental illness with being an evil ****. Anyone who ruins a child for life and takes their innocence in that way fully deserves to have their neck stretched. The re-offending rate alone justifies it to protect the young in society. They do it because they want to imo not because they can't help it.

That depends very much on the crime and the relevant punishment. Take Iran for example, stoning a young girl to death for being raped is barbaric imo. Hanging Harold Shipman for killing over 200 people would not be barbaric, it would be a fair return for his work. Personally I don't find the issue as black and white as some people here are trying to paint it but understand why most are opposed on principle.

Because you doubt it doesn't mean you are correct, as the deterrent was not available we'll never know. we do knwo though the US stats show the murder rate in those states with or without captial punishment is little difference and the death penalty hardly stops murders over there whereas a state with no captial punishment NY has over the years through policing methods had a constant decline in the murder rate Ian, you say 'yes we do know' and go on to quote stuff from America. We don't live in America or have a population that packs more firepower than the 3rd Soviet Shock Army. You're not just comparing apples to oranges you're comparing apples to the moon and expecting to get a result that makes sense. It doesn't.

Taking Huntley as an example, 35 years at the cost of 'X' tens of thousands per year to keep him in jail wouldn't be offset by the fees of a few anmbulance chasing Phil Shiner types. Because you doubt it doesn't mean you are correct, as the deterrent was not available we'll never know. Your opinion is fine obviously but don't state it as fact when it isn't, please.

Sod National Service, we have a very professional army and it doesn't need crims or wasters. For the death penalty in certain cases. Child murderers, serial killers, terrorists who commit or attempt to commit mass murder, mulitple rapists. String them up.

Fantastic shout Santa, Major John Howard and the 43rd & 52nd Ox's and Buck's Light Infantry were the very first blokes to get their boots on the ground on D- Day, but because D-Day has been 'done' in BoB I doubt they would do it again. If anyone was to do a UK version it would probably work best focused on Eighth Army going through North Africa, Sicily and Italy.

31, but still not old enough to remember I can't drink on a school night and get up for work the next day. Sorry boss.

Good read. The Press are scum but the NOTW is generally in a league of it's own.

Roca, A little harsh on Les Arse maybe but apart from that pretty good!

Liverpool by a country mile. Filth.