John

Nice to hear from you John. I think we may be on the verge of something big. :winkold:

An early goal from them and the perfect response from us! So where did the referee get those 4 minutes of injury time from and we did he miss that obvious hand ball in their penalty box? Who cares? I really enjoyed that last 4 minutes. For once instead of looking in danger of conceding a late goal as we so often do we played the game out near the corner flag in our opponents half. James Milner showed if he has learned one thing at Newcastle it is the art of killing off a game in injury time and what a pleasure it was to see us denying Sunderland the ball and the opportunity to steal a late goal and a late point. Can anyone else take their eyes off the league table after we leapfrogged Arsenal into third ahead of next weekend’s table topping clash at Stamford Bridge? If we get something out of next week‘s game people really will need to sit up and take notice of us and bring us into top 4 consideration. I know it’s a big if, but who knows and isn’t it nice to be looking at the results of the likes of Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea as our competitors rather from the outside looking in? When we went a goal down we might have feared the worst. But, the advantage of going a goal down early is that you have plenty of time to turn it around and we did so in just 24 minutes! Sunderland did not make it easy for us and kept the ball very well at times but this was a thoroughly professional and committed performance from us and one that gives real hope that we can stay in the mix at the top this season. My player ratings from a game that has left us still well clear of Fergie’s boys is: Brad Freidel - 7 – Oozed confidence when tested and was a commanding figure. Luke Young – 6 – A solid display. Strong tackling but does need to work a little on his contribution when moving forward. Martin Laursen – 7 – Blotted out any threats that Sunderland were able to present. Headed the ball straight at Gordon when unmarked from a Barry corner on 8 minutes and they then went straight up the other end to steal the lead. Curtis Davies – 7 – A couple of rare mistakes late in the game that will have offered Carlos a little encouragement but a very good performance on the whole and Curtis is showing that competition for places does produce consistently good performances. Nicky Shorey – 6 – A steady enough performance until replaced with 20 minutes and injury time remaining. Why do we always take off a full back? Nigel Reo Coker – 7 – Showed us what we were missing in mid-week. Battled hard to claim the midfield and was always pressuring Sunderland when they had the ball. Stiliyan Petrov – 8 – MOTM - Really thriving in his role in the team now and looking the player we knew he was when he signed from Celtic. A fine display. Gareth Barry – 6 – Not at his best but did do some decent stuff at times, nearly added a third on 43 minutes when Gabby’s pace presented him with a half chance that Gordon smothered and hit a fierce shot over the bar on 72 minutes. Ashley Young – 7 – Hit a terrific free kick past Gordon from outside the box on 17 minutes and was a constant threat. Stole the ball from the keeper on the edge of the box near the end of the first half and found Reo who shot into the stand due to a bobble when faced with a difficult angle and an unguarded net. Nice to see Ashley and James Milner threatening in tandem on both wings in the last 20 minutes. John Carew – 7 – Worked hard and his back heal on 32 minutes sealed the win from Petrov’s firm ball into the danger area. Gabriel Agbonlahor – 6 – Some decent build up work and was just wide from outside the box on 66 minutes but did not pose a threat as often as he needs to and may need to work on the basics of the striker’s art. Pace is a great weapon but there are other tricks of the trade and a couple of days talking to and learning from someone like Jimmy Greaves would be beneficial. Substitutes: James Millner – 7 – Replaced Nicky on 70 minutes and looked very good. Showed a lovely touch just after coming on when cutting in from the wing and beating a couple of players and played a leading role in choking the life out of the game in the closing minutes. Carlos Cuellar – A late arrival brought on to stiffen our defence in the dying minutes, not on long enough to rate. Up the Villa! John Lewis

So here ends another of our 90 minute cup runs and now all we have left to play for is the league, the UEFA Cup and the FA Cup! Martin had been stung last season in this competition by Leicester when he rested players. He said of that, “Hindsight is a great old thing. I made some changes to the side and it didn’t work“. The same could be said of last night’s game against QPR. But, we cannot reasonably complain about Martin resting players last night given that this was our fourth game in nine days and that we face Sunderland on Saturday, Litex Thursday week and then a trip to Stamford Bridge three days later. But, last night proved that we have yet to reach the point which teams like Arsenal and Manchester United are at in that they are able to play teams that are unrecognisable from their normal starting line up and still win games against teams from the division below. Yesterday proved that our starting line up is hard to beat but that although we have made great strides in the last transfer window we are not the same team when more than one or two of our first choice players are missing. Those who might question Nigel Reo-Coker’s contribution for example might look at how we performed without him and might wonder if he would not have stamped his authority on the midfield last night. For me the game also showed that we lack an alternative up front. Resting Gabby was a gamble as I think most of us wondered whether Marlon and John were too alike to play together up front. Was this the time to give our young prospect Delfounesco a game? And has the time also come to accept that we cannot persist with a makeshift right back particularly now we have a real one. But, as Martin said, hindsight is a great old thing. I thought we never really got going in the first half and that this had another Leicester type performance written all over it. In the second half we did look a lot more lively but we never really threatened and their keeper did not really have a serious save to make throughout the game. We had chances but did not take them and so there was always a threat that one goal might settle this one and that it might not come from us. This was far from being a good night. Some might point to this trophy as being less prestigious than the others we are competing for but others might see this as having been our easiest route to a trophy. I see it as a mixture between the two. But, like the other 18,000 or so Villa fans who were there last night I’m never happy to lose a game, to go out of a competition or to surrender so meekly to a team that the clubs we aspire to join in the top 4 would rarely lose to at home. My player ratings from a game that has left us more likely to attend a concert at Wembley next year than a Cup Final are: Brad Guzan - 6 – Not a dream debut but that was not his fault. He shouts a lot which is good, he did well to come out and dive at a forward’s feet to prevent a possible second and also made a decent full length save shortly afterwards. Craig Gardner – 4 – Looked like a fish out of water back in a position he was clearly uncomfortable in filling. Zat Knight – 6 – Did well enough in what was a defence that had showed 4 changes from the back 5 that started against WBA. Carlos Cuellar – 6 – Not the sort of home debut he would have been hoping for but he did reasonably well alongside a new central defensive partner in what had injuries forced the changes would have been considered a makeshift defence. Nicky Shorey – 7 – MOTM - Our best defender last night. He looks increasingly good coming forward making some good runs and is generally steady in defence. Isaiah Osbourne – 5 – Had his moments which included a decent run into the box on 17 minutes when he then looked to cross rather than to shoot which had looked to me the better option. Will have been happy with his new contract and with a rare start but has yet to really show in a first team shirt that he will fulfil the potential he has shown glimpses of and can have no real complaint with being replaced on 67 minutes. Stiliyan Petrov – 6 – Another solid display in a difficult game to impress in. Gareth Barry – 6 – Really should have equalised or at least been on target on 75 minutes when with just the keeper to beat he pushed his chip wide. Looked in need of a rest in the second half rather than the captain’s arm band but he did do some decent things in the first half. Ashley Young – 7 – Not quite at his best but he was still our main threat. Hit a crisp effort just wide on 36 minutes and at times seemed to think he would have to win the game on his own by beating everyone in front of him rather than look around to see if someone was in a better position, in most cases nobody was though. John Carew – 6 – Kept working without showing the end product and may have found the change of striking partner upset his rhythm. Marlon Harewood – 5 – Given one of his rare starts but the fact that he was replaced on 67 minutes demonstrated that he did little to stake a claim for a starting place ahead of either of the present incumbents. Should have done better on 10 minutes with an effort that flew over the bar and really needs to put the chances he has away more often. Substitutes: Gabriel Agbonlahor – 5 – Replaced Marlon on 67 minutes with a view to his making a big difference to our previous minimal strike threat but he did not. Wayne Routledge – 5 - A night to forget after replacing Isaiah for the last 23 minutes, particularly that late effort from a close range position in front of the goal that he somehow managed to screw wildly wide. Up the Villa! John Lewis

Given the hard work we put in to get into this competition proper and although we probably did enough to get through in the first leg my son and myself just could not miss this one. The price reflects that it is on the box and I can understand this may be the one to miss for fans that can't afford to pay thrice in a just over a week at the turnstile, but I find the season tickets do help with the budgeting. I hope enough come down to give this one some decent atmosphere.

Because the police won't let us play at any other time which is a pity because I think both sets of supporters might be trusted not to make a 3pm Saturday kick off into a battleground.

I voted for them too Rev. But I was less than pleased when we did not turn them over in those 4 Third Division games and it has now been 78 years of hurt... :winkold:

Close call between The Sopranos & 24 for me, with Jack just winning the day. I thought The West Wing was some show as well.

Nice to hear from you again John, I'm sure Gabby would love to think that he might one day be compared to Greavsie seriously. I would be happy if he turned out half the player that Jimmy was. Ciaran, I would have loved us to have gone for Defoe (I suspect we once did but he could not see the lure of a move up North as he might have seen it), as for Crouch I did not really want him back again and I think he too may have preferred to ply his trade with Harry. Arshavin would be a super signing but I think he is destined to go elsewhere. I will wait and see but I'm happy with how far we have moved forward already in this window and another signing would be the icing on the cake.

Well we have been looking for a clean sheet and now we have one, unfortunately that coincided with our own strike force drawing a rare blank! I approached today’s game hoping with more cause than for many a season that we could get that long awaited home win against Liverpool. After all, Rafa was missing two first choice midfield players in Stevie Gerrard and his alleged mate who was appearing against them in a Villa shirt rather than in the red one that it had seemed all summer long that he would have been wearing by yesterday (Fashion tip Gareth - Claret & Blue is this year’s colour all of the best young English players are now wearing it!). I looked at today’s teams on paper before the game and for the first time in a long time I considered we looked more than a match for them. After all, we had outspent them in the summer after running them close for much of last season with what was then but no longer is a small squad. They had brought in a striker who had been denied his dream move to us many years ago from Wolves because we had not matched his selling club’s asking price and in doing so, they had left themselves without enough money or was it the will, to secure what had once been said to be their main summer transfer target’s dream move from us. But, this was no dream move. It was a prolonged flirtation that did neither player nor potential purchasing club anything other than harm. By the end of this season, I trust that Gareth will see that the dream may have in reality proved to be a nightmare and surely he will see that Randy & Martin’s transfer dealings this summer do demonstrate the ambition he had been reportedly been looking to see at our football club before he committed himself to it’s future. Martin had asked him to give it until the end of this season to decide. If Gareth needs that long then fair enough, but I would suspect that our performances will as the season progresses make him happy that he is still in our shirt rather than in their’s and looking at the shirt they turned out in yesterday few would disagree. I really think this season may put us on the verge of something special in the same way as the late seventies did. We have a young team that will only get better as they develop together over the next couple of seasons and as they become accustomed to playing with each other during this one. We will have good games and bad along the way as we did under Ron Saunders. But, I suspect the good days will be more frequent than the bad ones as they were then. Our target this season should be 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th with a good cup run or two as well as getting into the groups stages in Europe. Challenging Manchester United and Chelsea for the title at home and abroad will come later, but I now think it will come and that the club that won both the title and the European Cup in the early eighties might just do the same with a manager that did it shortly before we did as a player. I might be proved wrong, but as Ron Saunders once asked, do you want to bet against us? My player ratings from a game that left us seventh, still ahead of last season’s champions, with competition for places almost throughout the team that makes players pull out all of the stops to make the starting eleven and with Liverpool more happy than we were with a point; are: Brad Friedel - 6 – Rarely tested but he did what was expected of him when he was although he might be less than pleased with some of his kicking. Luke Young – 6 – Unlucky to be replaced following what had been an encouraging performance and having been crying out for a right back for so long, I was a little concerned to see him on the bench for the last 25 minutes when Liverpool might have been expected to see this tactical and positive substitution as representing a potential defensive weakness. Curtis Davies – 8 – Responded very well to the prospect of losing his place today and stood out in a defence that did very well. On this form he will be very, very difficult to leave out when Carlos is fit to compete for one of the two central defensive positions. Martin Laursen – 7 – I have had some concerns about the potential impact on his exemplary performances of last season of his appointment as skipper but he was steady enough today against opponents who rarely fail to hit the target at least once in 90 minutes. Martin told Ashley just where and how he wanted the ball presented to him from a free kick with 5 minutes remaining but headed wide when it was placed there invitingly. Nicky Shorey – 6 – Steady enough but needs to work on his distribution which was a big part of his game at Reading and which I’m sure will improve as he becomes more familiar with his new colleagues. Nigel Reo Coker – 8 – MOTM – Considering the number of different positions he was expected to fill during this game this was some performance. Had a terrific run from one end of the field to another in the first half to win a corner and prevented Keane pulling the trigger on 73 minutes with a match saving challenge when the ex-Villa target had run clear with only Brad to beat and he does not miss many of those. Stiliyan Petrov – 7 – Another good display. The fierce competition for places in our midfield is clearly now having the desired affect not just for Stiliyan but for the midfield as a whole. Gareth Barry – 6 – Will have been glad to get this game over with. Not yet at his sublime best but he now needs to get over the disruptive summer and focus on performing to the level he did last season with us as well as with England. Ashley Young – 6 – Kept all too quiet yesterday. Rafa clearly recognised the potent threat that Ashley represents and how keeping him quiet does much the same to the strike force as a whole, particularly in the absence of the threat on the other side that Milner will provide. Ashley would have wanted to show more to show how wrong Fabio was to leave him out of a second England squad. John Carew – 6 – Young pulled the ball back for him from what had looked an offside position on 34 minutes but John’s shot was straight at the keeper whose legs prevented what had looked a good opportunity for an opener. Gabriel Agbonlahor – 4 – Disappointing and might he have been the one to make room for Milner? Was he distracted by press reports today or was this a repeat of his performance against Manchester City without the 7 minutes of magic that led to one recent hat-trick he could take pride in? Gabby really needs to build upon what he had shown against Mark Hughes’ team, to produce what he did then on a regular basis and to let his football earn him the headlines which need to be on the back page rather than elsewhere. Can do a lot better than this. Substitutes: James Milner – 6 – Welcome back James! Our record signing replaced Luke Young on 65 minutes, I suspect because the midfield had been performing too well to replace him with one of them. Did well enough in what time he had and hit a shot on 82 minutes that might have just have given him a dream return had the keeper not got to it but he will become a tremendous asset as he and his new colleagues become increasingly familiar with each other. Craig Gardner – Replaced Shorey on 79 minutes to leave us with two temporary full backs (although surprisingly he was not one of them) as we went in search of a late winner and so at an increased risk of a late defeat. Up the Villa! John Lewis

Yes I agree 110% roonst83, I think Martin has signed a very good player who will become an England regular. He also talks a good game, says good things about our club and comes over as a pro who young lads would do well to model themselves on behaviour wise. I have a sneaking feeling we may be watching a future Villa captain here and possibly a future England one. One small point, Curtis is clearly very comfortable and confident when talking to the press. Not every player is a "wordsmith" and as you point out Gabby is the reverse of the coin. But, much respect to them both for being so willing to face the cameras and I think this shows how much playing for us and doing well for us means to them both. I just think Gabby does his talking best with his goals. :winkold:

I think the first game of the season, turning over Citeh for once and the 4 goals may have led to a more generous marking on this occasion Blandy. I also agree with the points you make concerning Reo's work rate v his distribution and this was something I had looked at when marking his contribution in the wide role he is currently filling. I promise to give the odd 6 or below next time. :winkold:

Well said Blandy and thanks to Marktam as well for that trip down memory lane. I think we all have a lot to be happy about right now and with Randy & Martin at the helm there is a real prospect that we are once again on the brink of something really big as we were 30 years ago. Its great that the fans who were not there to see the rise of the sleeping giant back then might just have the opportunity to see our lion roar again this time and to enjoy the glory days that we thrilled at in days of yore.

So Gabby just needs just 17 more goals from our remaining 37 league games to prove that he can be the 20 goal a season striker that we need! “Going down with the chairman” and “Where’s your money gone”. How funny were those chants? I’m sure that the Manchester City fans that sneaked out of the ground after our fourth goal will have seen the funny side as will their chairman as he clings to his freedom. OK they probably would not have, in the same way as those fans would not have seen their late consolation goal. By the way, we really do need to kick that habit of conceding a goal after we hit our fourth one! We owed Manchester City this one. In recent seasons they have been our bogey team and one that we have rarely bettered but that all came to an end yesterday, despite a debatable penalty in what was an entertaining six goal thriller at the Villa. This was not quite as easy as the score suggests. We were well worth our victory but at times we were stretched at the back by their fast raiding breaks and the goals that clinched our win were a long time coming. But like the proverbial London omnibus, when one goal did eventually come so did two others to put the game out of their reach where our first goal had failed to do so. Its early days but there were a lot of positives to be taken out of this. OK Martin will not have been happy to see his new look defence concede two goals but if we score goals as regularly as we have been doing towards the end of last season and now at the start of this one, we will win more games than we lose this season. My player ratings from a game that left us second in the league and two points ahead of last season’s champions are: Brad Friedel - 7 – A confident keeper who will rarely be beaten so often at home. Brad made a good stop from Elano on 29 minutes and several others particularly two from substitute Ireland later on that could have put a different complexion on the game. Was sent the wrong way from the penalty spot by Elano for their first, but you can’t stop them all. Luke Young – 7 – Strong tackles, looks hungry for the challenge and looked unlucky to have conceded their penalty. Oh what a joy it is to have a real right back again! Curtis Davies – 7 – Hasn’t he done well to get fit so soon? Looked very good particularly early on and once he has proved his fitness looks destined to join Gareth in the England squad. Martin Laursen – 7 – Our new captain produced his usual determined performance but will not have been happy to have seen his new look defence concede two goals. I’m sure that once they become familiar with each other’s game any initial teething problems can be ironed out. Nicky Shorey – 7 – A pretty competent performance but will be unhappy to have let the ball run loose within the box for their equaliser when he had seemed to have it. Nigel Reo Coker – 7 – More comfortable when in a central position but made some strong challenges and worked hard throughout. Hit a great cross on 25 minutes that Hart touched onto Barry whose shot brushed the side netting rather than nestled into the back of the net and was near to scoring himself when just failing to reach a cross. Stiliyan Petrov – 8 – Ran the show for us in the midfield particularly in the first half. Some strong runs and is looking increasingly more like the player we had thought we had signed two years ago. Gareth Barry – 7 – Not quite at his dominant best in the first half when on another day he might have scored but it was nice to see him still in a Villa shirt and now looking down the table at the club he might have joined. His perfectly timed pass set up Gabby’s third and he had a hand in the last three of our four goals. Ashley Young – 7 – Did more than enough to show there should have been no question of his not being included in the latest England squad. John Carew – 7 – Probably not fully match fit but was still a potent threat and popped up with our opener a minute into the second half when he headed in Ashley’s pin point cross having earlier glanced a header just wide of the far post from a corner on 5 minutes and having had another header from a corner saved comfortably 4 minutes later. Gabriel Agbonlahor – 9 – MOTM – On 67 minutes after failing to convert what seemed a decent goal scoring opportunity I said that he really needed to be turning opportunities like that into goals and on 69, 74 and 76 minutes he did exactly that. Gabby started by clipping the ball into the net after a corner had been headed back across goal by Carew to regain our lead, 5 minutes later he applied the perfect headed finish to Barry’s perfect cross and 2 minutes later he completed his hat-trick with a Jimmy Greaves like finish when he pushed the ball past the oncoming Hart having broken clear and run onto Barry’s well placed pass. This second fastest Premier League hat-trick which was scored in front of the Holte End will do his confidence no end of good and should give him something to build upon during the season. Up the Villa! John Lewis

They had the money this time B31villa but chose to spend it elsewhere they might choose to do the same again...

I would take him back, although I would have been happier had he kept his part of the deal with Martin about the deadline for this deal. I think Liverpool have made his position very difficult, as has he. They seemed to be of the opinion that we would sell below market value (I wonder who put that thought in their minds ) and are not prepared to pay the asking price for him where they were for Keane (with money they could have used to secure Barry). So now they expect us to cave in near the end of the transfer window, to not play him against them or in Europe and to accept what has always been an unacceptable offer in desperation? Or will Barry play for us (reluctantly) until January or next summer in the knowledge that doing so, will bring his fee down? Or will he do the right thing and say that although he was tempted by them, they could not do a deal with the club that pays his wages and that he now wants to repay the fans for their support by signing another contract with us to put an end to this long running saga for the benefit of Aston Villa Football Club?

So, I am more than happy with that... :winkold:

Well I always expect the worst so would suspect we may find ourselves up against one of the higher none seeds, a straight seeding of us as fourth highest with fourth lowest would give us Hafnarfjordur and I would be more than happy with that.

I stand corrected both. I had understood there would not be a cup presented to anyone this time as this was the last competition and as with last time we won it more than one club would qualify as Intertoto winners and there had therefore been more than one Intertoto Cup. But, if it is to be the team that advances the furthest in the UEFA Cup then I would not want to bet against us being that club and if so, as double winners, I guess we would get to keep it? :winkold:

Odense BK were unable to stop us becoming the ninth club to win the Intertoto Cup twice and the first and only British club to achieve this feat! So onwards and upwards to our rightful place in the UEFA Cup. This was not a great game although it was settled by a great goal from Ashley Young and our victory came at a heavy price as we lost our ever popular left back Freddy Bouma to what appeared to be a horrific injury. So it seems that Martin now needs to search urgently for a left as well as a right back. That search might take him to Reading before next Saturday and see us consider rescuing Shorey from a season where he might otherwise be facing the likes of Small Heath’s finest in the league below us. It was great to see us bring in a second new face at half time when Brad Freidel made a first appearance at Villa Park as a Villa player. He represents great value, commands his box and has the first name Brad which will make our other new Brad feel at home when as seems likely he eventually joins us after the Olympic Games. Oh and what of Gareth? What a difference a few days makes. The hostile reception he received at Walsall became something that even Gareth could not have hoped for in his wildest dreams. He received a very warm welcome from thirty one thousand Villa fans who appeared to tell him that they are prepared to let bygones be bygones and to give him an escape route from a protracted and acrimonious transfer that seems less likely with each day that passes to happen. Liverpool claim they want him in the press but find money for other signings and turn their priorities to Keane at a higher price than the one we are asking of them for our captain. The conclusion? They really don’t want him that much and only want him at a price that is below his market value. The remedy? Gareth is offered a new contract over the weekend at something near the wage he would have picked up at Anfield. He signs a new deal and commits himself to our bright future. It’s a win, win situation for club and player. We keep an England regular, make what would be our most important signing of this transfer window and fill one of the key vacant places in our squad that seems so hard for us to do in transfer windows. The loss of Bouma saw Gareth slot into his role and without him, who else could have done a job there? We just can’t afford to let him go now and hopefully yesterday will show him that he really has only one ground where he will receive such a warm welcome and feel so at home. So will he toss all of that aside or will it be “Barry for Villa”? My player ratings from a game that set up the potential for some entertaining European nights at Villa Park this season are: Stuart Taylor - 6 – A good one handed stop on 8 minutes to prevent an early goal that could have put undue pressure upon us, did a solid enough job when tested as he always does but will have been relieved to see Fall hit the foot of the post with a shot on 28 minutes when left with just him to beat. Craig Gardner – 6 – Much less exposed than in the first leg and did a solid enough job in what needs to become a position someone else will soon fill on a regular basis thus freeing him up to move into midfield contention and to fill in at full back only in an emergency. Zat Knight – 6 – A solid enough display. Martin Laursen – 7 – Solid at the back and a regular threat up front. Wilfred Bouma – 7 – We will miss him. All the very best for a speedy recovery Freddy. Stiliyan Petrov – 6 – Not up to the level of performance he had shown towards the end of last season yet. Nigel Reo Coker – 7 – Our best midfield player by some way yesterday. Steve Sidwell – 6 – No longer a big fish in a small pond as he was at Reading or a small fish in a big one as he was at Chelsea. He gets into some good positions but is not up to speed yet. Can only improve as he gets a run of games. Ashley Young – 8 – MOTM – Had a good free kick deflected just wide on 10 minutes and then cut inside and pulled the trigger on 50 minutes to clinch our win with a tremendous shot that was always bound for the top corner of the net. Showed some nice touches before and particularly after that. John Carew – 6 – Hit the under side of the bar on 66 minutes but not quite at his best as yet. Gabriel Agbonlahor – 6 – Picked his spot on 77 minutes but unfortunately that spot was just wide of the post. Will need to develop that killer instinct this season. Substitutes: Gareth Barry - Replaced Freddy on 15 minutes. Came on to a terrific reception and earned ripples of applause with his every touch. Performed as you would expect a player who is worth £18m to do. Up the Villa! John Lewis

We have the best manager and the best owner and we will one day have the best team. It won't happen in one summer but things are clearly on the up at Villa Park and the time for banners, flags and 3-year cycles is past. In Martin & Randy we can trust.

I agree that to go out at the first hurdle when a place in the UEFA Cup is the prize for the winner (which our league position last year usualy brings) would be a huge blow. Given that I think we are under done for the first leg I would be happy with an away goal and to bring them back to Villa Park no worse than one behind. I trust we could then emerge winners in the home leg. I'm hoping that we can reach the group stage as a minimum but anything better than that would be a bonus.

I think Barry might prefer the Yorke scenario (he will clearly use the one that suits his position best) as he did go off and collect medals that he would not have with us. But, for every move that proves with hinsight the right one for the player if not the club (Yorke and before that I would suggest Rioch and Blanchflower) there are as you have demonstrated those who with hindsight would have done better staying with us. I hope that Barry will prove to be one of them and will look back when he walks out the door at Anfield as an ex-England regular, a former club captain and as a player who played only when it suited Rafa; at what might have been if he had shown loyalty and stayed where he was so appreciated.

I hope he reads this Grant. You have put it on the line and for me there is only one choice to make for him to make (assuming Liverpool do make an offer that our club find acceptable) and that is to stay put. I can't see this CL thing being as big a pull as he claims. He needs to weigh that against the loss of the status he holds as our captain, the fact that he will no longer be the first name on the team sheet, Rafa's rotation policy and how playing for Liverpool (or not doing so) has impacted on Crouch in the long run. But, in the end I suspect it may be a decision that will be one where loyalty to our football club and its fans is weighed against a signing on fee and a few pounds more each week in his salary. The decision will say a lot about the man behind the player.

Good thought provoking stuff DC. I'm not sure how many of the current high earners will want to continue in the game as their futures are already secure without the pressures of being a manager and Keane may prove to be a bit of an exception here. It seems to me that the players who want it bad enough should do what Martin did and pick up things from their current managers and then put it into practice at a lower level before doing it with the bigger clubs as Paul Ince seems destined to do or they could work under a top manager as his number two with a view to getting a top job in the long run as Tony Adams is likely to. Being a great player does not mean you will be a great manager and grooming great players that may not have that something special that will make them great managers may not be as productive as might be hoped. After all the late great Bobby Moore was a better player than Graham Taylor but he found club management more difficult than GT did.