Tumblerseven

21 minutes ago, blandy said:

Your question starts with a condition. We have to ask whether that condition is both legitimate and practical/ possible. My answer would be that it is legitimate to want to eliminate Hamas, but that it is neither practical nor possible to do it by the means chosen. Further, the means chosen is both radicalising for a new generation of anti Israel terrorists, against international humanitarian law and beyond abhorrent in terms of its impact on Palestinian civilians.

Your question should therefore be a different one. It should be “how, without killing and maiming thousands of innocents can Israel eliminate Hamas and its fighters?” .

That is also a difficult question to answer, but there is an answer. By refraining from the obvious action, of mass bombing, Israel can demonstrate great responsibility and control to the world and thereby garner great support for much more specifically targeted actions, using international support, intelligence, targeted hit squads and special forces, diplomacy and so on, not just against Hamas fighters, but (apart from hit squads) against Hamas’s supporters outside Palestine and the West Bank.

 Oh it is possible not every fighter of course but majority is possible to kill the party or organization of Hamas is possible.

Practical? either go to war destroy terrorist party who is controlling your neighboring country or what? what else more practical thing left to do i dont know no one knows that why this is a mess for 70 years.

I dont think concerning yourself about radicalization of the population when they already radicalized is practical or reasonable. They govern by terrorist party who was elected democratically in 2006 they dont try to overthrow it and they dance in the streets on 911 and London bus bombings no one is concerned about their radicalization at this point.

No my question is as its supposed to be because im 100% convinced that there are people who think that Israel cant fight back or punch back or do anything because they are racist occupying force.

more specifically targeted actions what exactly does this mean?

using international support what exactly does this mean.

 targeted hit squads and special forces this is nonsense. You cant send special forces into densely populated city with population who wants to kill you. Mogadishu 1993

4 minutes ago, Jon said:

Seek a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian/ Israeli issue. Dialogue. International condemnation of Hamas. Strengthen defences. 

But a lasting peace in the region is not built on war, murder and genocide.

I've personally never been a fan of 'an eye for an eye' or in this case '100 Palestinian eyes for every Israeli eye'. 

International condemnation of Hamas. Oh my god terrorists who bomb themselves and kill women and children are shaking from fear of it . How no one thought about that before... ISIS unlucky  

Dialogue they kill your people and you suggest dialogue what else a fire pit holding each other hands and dance around the fire and sing kumbaya? childish nonsense.

So if IRA tomorrow does a terrorist act and kills 4000 people in london you would suggest dialoge and international condemnation? are you joking me.

14 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Yep, I think zero is the ideal answer. 

"wow what brave answer" to a question no one asked.

Can you tell me now how many civilian deaths would be justified or acceptable in your view if israel wants to destroy 30 000 or 40 000 terrorists?

2 hours ago, El Segundo said:

Just interested in whether or not you  think Israel is an occupying force?    

As a general principle, do you think that any people that has it's land occupied has a right to oppose that occupation (not by Hamas, but in general) ?  

 

Yes i think if you are occupied you can fight against occupiers military infrastructure and soldiers. There are other fighting methods besides violence. I think its very clearl that palestine didint apply seriously any other method only violence.

I think crazy radical zionist jewish settlers in west bank is occupying force and should be forcefully kicked out ASAP.

I dont think israel as a whole is occupying force because i dont think there was a country before israel in there. I can understand if people say there were palestinian villages and their land was occupied but im not living in fantasy land and i understand how countries are born and i understand that if you not prepared to build a country someone else will.

Do you think Palestine population support Hamas? if no what are you basing that opinion on?

25 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

On October 7th, there were around 400 IDF forces killed and around 1,000 civilians - going by your numbers on acceptable losses in a combat situation - that's almost acceptable or justifiable.

That's what you're saying right?

Until you start to place the same value on the lives of the children that were killed last night in Gaza as you do on the lives of the children that were killed on October the 7th, it's hard to see how you'll ever understand the point of view of people who disagree with you.

The attacks on civilians on 7th October were an act of terrorism and completely unacceptable, the acts by Israel on bombing ambulances, hospitals, schools, refugee camps, areas of the West Bank and it's neighbours are acts of terrorism and completely unacceptable.

I can put words into your mouth too.

This guy just called a terrorist act where civilian population were targeted a combat situation. 

Its funny that you will say to me that i dont understand other people positions where you actually have no idea what i believe and what is my position. The first sentence alone i literally half an hour ago wrote that i dont count or look at the situation like that. So look at the mirror and apply your advice to yourself about trying to understand other people position.

Oh and i see you liked that SNE comment with answer ZERO. you want to elaborate?

So these people will not answer the questions..

They will signal here for a immediate cease fire by non stop writing about civilian deaths. Its because their answer to the question how much civilian deaths would be acceptable or justified is 0 or 1000 such an unrealistic small number that it signals that israel should or cant do nothing.

And that is the whole point these people dont think that Israel can fight back or try to destroy Hamas. They think its occupying racist force and they think Palestinians have the right to fight back through Hamas.

Its dog-whistling stop ignoring it and call them out and ask these difficult questions to these people.

1.So if israel says they want to destroy hamas 30 000-40 000 terrorists in gaza. How many civilian deaths would be justified or acceptable?

2.What justifiable acceptable actions could Israel take after october 7?

1 minute ago, sne said:

Just wow. How many of those civilians should be children do you think? 40.000 dead children justified? 60.000? How many of them would you say should be toddlers? Do you have a particular number in mind for newly born and infants. 10.000 should be fine right? 15.000 a bit much? I mean who even cares if someone who doesn't even have a TikTok account dies, right? How about injured along with those 80.000 justifiedly killed? Another couple 100k? A million? 

As for Oct 7,There is no good answer to that question, as you well know.

 

 

So you asked a difficult question and i  answered. I asked you one question already two times you not answering it. Im not asking is there a good answer to the question and if there is no good answer you still can give me an answer. 

 If number is zero and war always requires civilian deaths in your opinion what Israel had to do after October 7? nothing?

Just now, Chindie said:

Nothing gives you carte blanche to bomb an extremely densely populated area with airstrikes artillery and sending in the tanks.

So same question to you.

So if israel says they want to destroy hamas 30 000-40 000 terrorists in gaza. How many civilian deaths would be justified or acceptable?

Just now, sne said:

Turn it around. How many non Israeli lives is 1 Israeli life worth to you. Obviously it's not old testament 1 for 1 as we're now close to 10 for 1. Is it 100 for 1? 1000? 10000? Or do you just want the Palestinian people eradicated and wiped out?

how many one israeli life worth to me? i dont count it like that.

I see a terrorist organization who needs to be destroyed i see 40 0000 terrorists who needs to be destroyed i would say for me 80 000 civilian casualties deaths would be acceptable or justified. 

Can you now answer the question? If number is zero and war always requires civilian deaths in your opinion what Israel had to do after October 7? nothing?

3 minutes ago, sne said:

Zero.

So fantasy world...

If number is zero and war always requires civilian deaths in your opinion what Israel had to do after October 7? nothing?

So if israel says they want to destroy hamas 30 000-40 000 terrorists in gaza. How many civilian deaths would be justified or acceptable? I dont think anyone in this forum answered this question once. 

20 minutes ago, Mr_Dogg said:

Israel are not killing every Gazan that moves and bombing the place to dust to rescue hostages.

Oh come on now they have to demonize Israel somehow right?

25 minutes ago, Thug said:

1) if Hamas were hiding in Israel, would the ‘IDF’ be bombing Israeli civilian infrastructure, saying that it’s not their fault that Hamas were using human shields? 

2) if Hamas were hiding under your house, would it be ok for the IDF to bomb your house and kill your family?

I’m not expecting answers.  Quite frankly, I don’t want to hear any more bullshit excuses for murder.

 

 

So i think at this point no one is denying that Israel is kinda callous to Palestinian deaths I think everyone saw it already in 2004 so its nothing new. They hate each other and are mortal enemies its not very difficult to understand why.

Your questions 1and 2 are not real questions. You simplified them and removed critical very important information.

So i will ask the question with the important context and i will answer it. And can you answer this question below?

If Hamas captured my city with 40 000 armed fighters dug tunnels around the city and mined the roads around with IEDs and is using my house as a military base to wage war against my country with my family in it. Would i say that my government would be justified to bomb the house? YES. would i like it? NO.

If im not mistaken every neighboring country made declarations or documents or promises to destroy Israel. And in all of the Israel wars United States never ever directly send their army to fight for Israel they only give money.

Quote

I'm not into this Tweeter but the clip is important - Netanyahu's own words in 2019 read out loud - there is no doubt here what is going on or is there @Tumblerseven?

What do you think my position about Netanyahu and settlers and Zionism is?  Can you tell me?

Pro-Palestinian rally at Cooper Union leads to tense moments at school library - CBS New York (cbsnews.com)

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NEW YORK -- There were tense moments at the campus of Cooper Union in Manhattan on Wednesday afternoon.

Students who are pro-Israel say they felt unsafe as pro-Palestinian demonstrators banged and chanted outside the library they were studying in. They tell CBS New York's Lisa Rozner school staff locked them in the library due to safety concerns.

Police say there were no injuries, arrests or property damage, and that this was a planned demonstration. The NYPD is reviewing surveillance video

@Mic09 no you cant follow the conversation original question was

Quote

 

i've been lurking on this thread for a while, reading all the various thoughts and opinions.

For the knowledgeable posters, can I ask what Iran has to do with any of this? What's their goal and why are they so keen on destabilising the region?

 

you actually changed and hijacked discussion and made it everything about israel. i think everyone can see it by reading.

10 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I like how you turned a question of Israeli intentions in the geopolitical game in the Arab world into a rant on Palestine.

no the original question was about irans influence of the arab world.

can you actually quote me that question you talking about the israeli intentions in the geopolitical game in the arab world?

14 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

retaliate against Hamas, but keep appearances up to seem a bit more friendly to the wider world audience? Maybe keep Netanyahu and the army from making some of the comments they made during the last 2 weeks? 

A scorched earth tactic against an enemy is not a great policy if the next day they are looking to build some new international relations?  

The harsh reality is no one likes Palestinians im talking about the Arab countries who surround them. Not Egypt not Jordan no one likes them because every time one of those countries take Palestinian refugees they do some crazy shit. Killing kings or prime ministers taking over the government kidnaping planes bombings. Everywhere they go they try to influence or force the country who took them and helped them to fight against Israel.

Every Arab country who is now "crying" for Palestinian civilian casualties are virtue signaling with intent to make themselves look like victims and Israel look like evil aggressor against muslims. Those countries have no real intention to help Palestine or their people.

It wont affect their trade or cooperation relationship or if it will they will normalize relationships pretty fast because they don't care about palestine.

32 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

 but it's what triggerred my response Jareth and it will at least be there to ward off any more of this justification nonsense.

Whoa same i got triggered too good job calling that stuff out. 

52 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

I have mainly just read and mostly stayed out of this thread. However, I do have one burning question which, I don't believe any else has asked thus far. And it's this,

@Tumblerseven How much do the IDF/& or Mossad pay you to come and debate this shit? Seriously, are you hourly? per post? Or salaried? This is Capitalism after all  I mean, I'm a hired hand. Work from home, decent salary, leave your love for humanity at the door etc.

My follow-up question is, why the F*** are you posting the sub-forum of a football team that just happens to be the greatest in the world. You obviously aren't a fan or interested in the team. Just trying to convince the what, 20 people that read this stuff? Is the IDF/Mossad just that ubiquitous? (Here's the link if you need to look that up as an ESL.)

I'm also aware this now puts me on a list. (I turned my VPN before I posted this but it's probably not that hard to find me.)

Seriously, how many of you are there online? The budget must be enormous? What are the facilities like? Is it like Google where you get free lunch and are able to skateboard around to the every pool table. Or are you really serious and military-like with a shaved head and a cheese sandwich, discussing ways to convince the British that Israel is completely justified with it's approach.

Not being facetious, just here to learn.

Uh oh Jewish conspiracy theories here we go. Whats next? Soros? jews control media? world economic forum? go ahead dont be shy.

Your follow up question trying to paint me as outsider who is not interested in the team here read this. Othering is the process of portraying someone as fundamentally different from or inferior to the group they belong to. It can involve emphasizing perceived differences in race, ethnicity, nationality, beliefs, or other factors to create a sense of "us" versus "them." thats exactly what you just did using villa i think thats disgusting. The point of this tactic to alienate person from the group so everyone can gang up and push that person out . nice try not gonna work.

Yes yes my first language is not English you want to shame me for that seriously go ahead? i think im trying my best and i think my statements are pretty clear and understandable.

It puts you on the list?  yah dude you are "very important". 

I think your comment is like actually disgusting shame on you.

10 minutes ago, Thug said:

Look man, in my opinion none of your posts are balanced.  They are blinkered, prejudiced and one sided.

The whole point of debate is to try to change someone mind - even a little.

You’re clearly on some different mission, and I find you tiresome.  I feel everything you say is to try to trap or provoke me, and you’ve already tried the typical methods of rallying everyone around to gang up on me - much like what I’ve seen in the media already.

I’m not going to directly engage you anymore because of this.  I believe your opinions are deeply rooted and completely prejudiced.  I find your lack of empathy towards people’s suffering (other than those you align with) to be deeply disturbing, and I feel that the more I engage you, the more chance I give you to spout your nonsense.

I don’t want any pain or suffering to anyone, Jewish people included.  I want de-escalation, all hostages to return home and above all I want peace.  I want Israel to be safe and to prosper, along with all its neighbours.  I want them to trade, and I want them to live happily.

So I shall leave it at that with you.  Whether you can bring it upon yourself to agree with any of that, quite frankly I don’t care any more.

UTV.

 

 

 I would like to do more balanced posts but i cant i feel very uncomfortable doing it because of people like you. Because this forum is full of people who are actually demonizing Israel minimizing what they suffered or justifying Hamas actions. (Yes yes no one sees it i know that the official line). I can point it out for three days and still no one sees it.

It really reminds me of white supremacist forums where they dog whistle 24/7 and pretend that no one is saying what they are actually saying. wink wink.

I think you are propagandist or act like one because:

1: You are talking about the situation absolutely one sided. You will acknowledge that people died from terrorist attacks and its bad for a sentence or two i think this is your defense to appear not one sided its not working. Then you proceed to do walls of text a one sided commentary.

2. You demonize israel. Statements that their main concern is a land grab. Statements they refuse to take hostages. Statements that they actually want hostages dead.

3. Selective information and quoting.  You will put an effort to provide something but your summary will be one sided unfair you will ignore or distort facts to fit the Israel evil narrative.

To laugh at Israels security concerns and to just dismiss that they are surrounded by all sides with hundreds of millions of people who hate them and want them to not exist is very very telling. 

3 hours ago, Thug said:

They know where they are.

Hamas have offered to release them.

The Israeli government have refused this offer.

The release of the hostages is the polar opposite of what they want.  They are desperate for the hostages to die in captivity so that they can use that as an excuse to continue the bombardment.

stick the posters up on the Israeli embassy wall where they can be seen by the people that can actually bring them home.

These videos you posting is not even close to the framing you wrote. I think you lied when you said that this framing was from a video.

Are you just going to pretend that you provided videos with the framing?

Oh and the first NBC video 1:29 directly shows the criticism of your insane dishonest framing.

@VILLAMARV  i dont think you are being honest i think you playing the game. If anyone interested i suggest to read that conversation. I would agree that you butchered that MLK quote extremely and i think you butchered it in that way because you wanted to support the idea of justification and calling the terrorist attack a riot or minimize it. For you to say that im quoting you out of context is dishonest because i quoted you before this exchange with your full quote and statements. I wanted to show what my rationalization is so i took in my opinion problematic parts and wanted to explain my thinking. I think if you read the whole conversation my rationalization makes even better sense.

7 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

@Tumblerseven, do you support a two state solution?

yesterday i gave my opinion about the conflict solution pretty clearly you can find it i believe in you.

@Thug where is that video?