Tumblerseven

4 minutes ago, Thug said:

Woah, that was reported by an American news channel.

not my framing.

let me find the YouTube video 

And what is it with you and your obsession with trying to catch me out?

Ive said a million times the hostages need to be released.  Hell, they  shouldn’t have been taken in the first place.  

I want them released. As soon as possible, without conditions.

No doubt Hamas put conditions on their release, but the Israeli side have so far refused to negotiate.  
 

There have been Israeli officials on tv That have quite clearly stated they will not negotiate with terrorists.

What framing did I use?

i dont understand why people not calling this stuff out in this forum. I really dont... you should be shamed like actually you are copy of that momo person or whatever who straight up used lies and propaganda until i came and called them out.

13 minutes ago, Thug said:

They know where they are.

Hamas have offered to release them.

The Israeli government have refused this offer.

The release of the hostages is the polar opposite of what they want.  They are desperate for the hostages to die in captivity so that they can use that as an excuse to continue the bombardment.

stick the posters up on the Israeli embassy wall where they can be seen by the people that can actually bring them home.

hamas offered to release them and israeli have refused?

Dude your framing is actually wild its disgusting. 

oh my god and it got worse...

45 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I don't know what we're talking about here.

Well let me explain. I was talking with thug about Israels legitimate threats.  I named every neighboring country to Israel and posted their all population numbers all those countries dont want israel existing. Israel population is 9million neighboring countries 153million.

Thug completely ignored that legitimate threat to Israel. And said that its a walk in a park for Israel to defeat all those countries and he wanted to focus on military budget. I said hold on those 153 million population countries can use war of attrition. He laughed again and said utter nonsense its not WW1. 

So the question if all neighboring countries would attack Israel at the same time would war of attrition contribute to the wars outcome? i think the answer is very clear yes.

He Thug disingenuously asked you would you consider this war the war of attrition and tried to pretend that we are talking about this war. I saw what he asked you and i wanted to correct the question.

6 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

1. It's not a good idea to subscribe to any point of view. Please don't assume people do that - opinions are just that, someone who doesn't change them from time to time is not worth debating. 
2. Fascist states often grow out of democratic systems. 
3. Personally I don't know many Palestinians (met a few at Uni), I can only assume most are peaceful people who just want a normal life. You know, have a family, run a shop, send their kids to school, share holidays together. Like every other society regardless of their government policy. I'd be willing to be that if there was a referendum of 'Israel and Palestine will each split the contested land in half with Jerusalem staying as is, and no further conflict' - I reckon mast majority of those mothers and fathers who are bombed in the Gaza strip will likely be happy to agree to that.
People are very rarely bad - it's the system of war and conflict which provokes them to do harm.
4. Try UK on for size - I'd bet most young people do not like the current government. I expect them to vote tories out. And in 5/10 years time new young people will have a different view of the world. 

Hamas Militant’s Chilling Call To Family After Oct 7 Israel Massacre; ‘Your Son’s A Hero’ | Watch | Hindustan Times

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The Israeli military has released a chilling audio conversation between a purported Hamas militant and his family in which the Palestinian fighter is heard boasting about killing 10 people during the October 7 massacre. The audio conversation appears to be from the day of Hamas’ assault on Israel on October 7.

there is a video inside.

I feel like you just trying to argue for the sake of argue so im not even going to touch it.

Yo @magnkarl

out of curiosity 

if a country with 9 million people fight with a country of153 million people.

Is it likely that war of attrition would contribute to the wars outcome? 

4 minutes ago, bickster said:

I literally quoted it. If you didn't mean it, why mention that Hamas were democratically elected as if it has no relevance

uh oh you slipping huh?

My statement: So if im not mistaken Hamas were elected in pretty democratic election by their standards in 2006

Meaning of the statement: In 2006 Hamas were democratically elected.

Does that mean that they have democratic mandate in 2023? NO. did i even suggested it? NO

Your statement: Hamas were elected in 2006, can you name any democratically elected government that is still in power without facing re-election in 17 years?  yet you want to argue that Hamas has a democratic mandate.

Can you quote me where i said i want to argue that Hamas has democratic mandate?

Do you see the difference between these two statements?

1: They were democratically elected in 2006

2: They were democratically elected in 2006 and they still have democratic mandate still now?

Please tell me how a country with awful lot of young people who dont like their government looks like? what do you expect to see in that country?

1 minute ago, Thug said:

Lol, why won’t you answer dude?

come on man, not a hard question.

Ok let’s even it up a bit.  Israel has to be blindfolded.

Heck, BANGLADESH just joined in!

 

israel 9m blindfolded.

vs

Indonesia, Nigeria, Bangladesh.  

664m fully fed & watered.

Who's gonna win?

 

I am sorry general i cant im just a private tell me more how war of attrition doesn't exist please.

20 minutes ago, Thug said:

It wasn’t in the slightest bit amusing.

That was an Ironic laugh.

Only a ‘total moron’ would not see that.

There is NOTHING amusing about death.

You, and a couple of other posters continue to justify Israel’s methods, and continue to promote this BULLSHIT self defence rhetoric.

I haven’t seen ANY posts justifying what Hamas did.

I see plenty of posts continuing to give justification of the brutal response.

I have no issue with the state of Israel, or Jewish people, but you guys seem to imply it at EVERY opportunity you can muster.

I have a pretty MAJOR issue with the ONGOING slaughter under the guise of self defence.  
 

The ONLY morons in this space are the ones that bring up words like white supremacy and naziism for any any criticism of those ‘who can do no wrong.’

I can’t be arsed to go back through your posts, so maybe you can clarify for me now whether you support the ongoing genocide and blockade of essential humanitarian supplies.

Then I will judge about whether you are a moron or not.

State of Palestine Population (2023) - Worldometer (worldometers.info)

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Population of the State of Palestine (2023 and historical)

Ongoing genocide? with growing population? uh oh.

Please "general" tell me what do you expect to see in the population when someone is committing a genocide of that population?

36 minutes ago, bickster said:

Going back to this specious argument from yesterday...

Hamas were elected in 2006, can you name any democratically elected government that is still in power without facing re-election in 17 years? Your argument may have held water, just about in 2011

Add into the mix that the median age in Palestine is 19.5, that's an awful lot of people who didn't even get the chance to vote in 2006 yet you want to argue that Hamas has a democratic mandate.

It's not close to an argument that holds water

First of "general" @Thug i am actually speechless you did it.

I dont recall where i said that Hamas has democratic mandate in 2023 but go off king if thats strengthens your argument

I listen to some people in this forum i have no idea what kind of politics or reality you subscribe.

In my belief there cant be a fascist totalitarian government with democratic society and there cant be democratic government with fascist totalitarian society. These goverments cant exist society overthrow them in each case.

With younger generation of Palestinians comment ar you implying they dont want Hamas as government? they are bunch of democratic and peaceful people huh?? I think this is again about your warped view of reality like with the look of the countries who want to survive.

Please tell me how a country with awful lot of young people who dont like their government looks like? what do you expect to see in that country?

2 minutes ago, Thug said:

And yet more.

i have said MULTIPLE times that Israel have every right to exist, and it’s people to lead a peaceful life not threatened at all times.

I have stated multiple times that what Hamas did was horrific.

im laughing at your statement about ‘main cause’

If you want to try to portray me as some white supremacist nazi for not wanting an entire population decimated under the bullshit disguise of self defence then more power to you.

ok, now that you have listed populations of the world, I’d be grateful if you could now post military budgets too.  Thanks in advance.

Well its your problem if you dont explain yourself and just put smiles all over.

You laughing at my statement of the main cause. Why? what is the 2023 Israels main cause?

Militarry budgets? nah i better give you this: One of the best examples of a war of attrition is World War I on the Italian and the Western Fronts. Both sides were drained until one side did not have enough men, horses, food and other military resources to continue. The term was often used to show a lack of imagination in simply throwing soldiers at their enemy.

Just now, Thug said:

Here we go, right on queue.

 

Oh man this is like actually debating white supremacist and nazis all over again. I cant believe it.

Are you pretending that you dont understand what are implications of your statement?

When you laugh at my statement that Israel in danger and its fighting for survival because there are legitimate threats you are implying that Its ridiculous you are implying that there are no threats or danger to Israel or if it is is Israel can beat it.

I just posted a list with neighboring countries and their population who dont want Israel existing to show you the credible realistic danger or threat. You completely ignored the threat and focused on another of my statements and laughed some more.

Is it really so far-fetched for me to say that you actually dont care about israel existing? really?

1 minute ago, Thug said:

Israel 9 miliion population.

Adversarial neighboring countries.

Lebanon 5 million population

Syria 22 million population

Jordan 11 million population

Egypt 110 million population

Palestine 5 million population

Anyone who unironically laughs at that statement actually dont care about Israel existing im certain of it. 

5 minutes ago, Jareth said:

These people's actions aside - what is the purpose of these posters in the locations they are posted?

"Yup ignore the actions as soon as posible.  I would suggest to ignore the posters too there are jews on them"

Hey can we talk about that girls bag? its nice isnt it?

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

Should those who hid them in their houses be killed? Should those that celebrated their inhuman actions be killed? Should those that wave flags and chant support for Hamas in a square be killed? Should their parents be killed? Their children? Their teachers? Those who say they were right and justified, should they die? Those that support Hamas but are ashamed of the way in which the killings were undertaken, do they need to die? Those that vote for Hamas and consider themselves supporters, but oppose terrorist acts? Those who shout for freedom 'from the river to the sea' should they die? It's not always as clear a line as we like.

I understand what you are saying personally i dont consider every person who hides or associates with Hamas as a terrorist. + Its a political party so every person in it is huge amount of people and you have there people who wants to change it from inside i understand that. I think killing/arresting leaders generals and fighters who did October 7 would suffice.

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presumably under the oversight of the UN, in order to ensure it's not merely seen as a window to re-arm and re-bolster those with violent intention for any future conflict. It'd need to come with some guarantees of security and peace for the people of Gaza - something to discourage them from replacing Hamas with anything similar - spoiling the ground for Hamas 2

Well i am liberal social democrat who believes in a responsibility of the society and their government and freedom of choice. I think they know what they want and they will choose it. They will have that right.

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why would you not want to trade with a neighbouring partner that you've helped to develop to a point where it's capable of doing so. It would seem like cutting off your nose to spite your face - it might be that i misunderstand you and that you mean just cut off the current relationship of dependency where you are required to supply fuel and water on a basis that isn't free trade.

Because i believe that free Palestine would fall apart really quick and i think these two parties cant work together as countries i think they want to destroy each other there is no way out of it. And there is possibilities when the war begins people will cry and moan about cutting trades and will call those acts inhuman so remove all the responsibility.

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 if what you're proposing is a free Gaza, then you'd have to support its freedom by treating crimes as crimes rather than an act of war. You would need to nurture the trust of the Palestinian people, foster their sense of stability and safety, remove the threat to the average working man in Gaza. Turning the other cheek and placing the process of reconciliation above that of revenge.

Uhm no.  I think if free Palestines ideology will be to destroy Israel and its people we can treat that terrorism as an act of war. Well im sorry im not prepared to treat Palestinians like children who needs teachings and guidance walking through the world. If thats the case if they actually need this we should just occupy Palestine right now insert puppet government and try to teach them into democracy and liberalism. Im not prepared to take that freedom from them.

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but in order to see any sort of solution to what's happening here and to avoid this thread and the events of the last month happening again it ten years and again in twenty years and again in thirty years, someone in Israel and someone in Palestine are going to have to start dreaming some pretty big dreams - because at the moment, the only real alternative to that for Israel is completely removing the future of a region that contains more than two million people.

I think that not every nation deserves a country. I think if you let people choose and the only thing they can do is elect the government with a purpose of terrorizing and attacking their neighbor maybe that country should not exist.

33 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

@Tumblerseven where do you see a longer term solution to what's happening today?

It's obvious that the actions of Hamas were not helpful, but do you think the current actions of Israel will be helpful to a longer term solution?

It's clearly something you care an enormous amount about and I would imagine have thought about for a long period of time - what would be your hope for the future?

I think Israel should give more time to evacuate people from targeted ground assault area. I think Israel has the right to protect people from terrorist attack so they should go into Gaza and kill every single Hamas terrorist.Then leave and fortify the border.

After that fully unblock Gaza give them 1 or 2 years to build infrastructure or make trades to support themselves. After two years cut all the trades or support water food fuel everything. Then after first terrorist attack announce war invade and occupy and annex all Gaza.

43 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

2 statements - one referring to the conversation I was having with a couple of posters about the UN reports of Israelies targetting and killing innocent children which was left at 'people weren't talking about that they were talking about bombing'. (Which I let hang there because there's little point in repeating the same thing over and over again despite finding it disingenuous as a response)

The other was the statement about torture where 1 poster suggested torture and death would be the least that they deserve. As I said, cheering on the torture of people. Presumably the poster is a bit more old testament than me in their thinking.

Okay i retract my comment about hypocrisy but do you understand how people can see or perceive your comments on October 7th minimizing and justifying the events??

When terrorists were still killing people you made these statements:

Statement 1: The question of exactly when violence becomes 'justified' in a moral sense is a fine philosophical debate.

Statement 2: But the defining point there is what other actions were left open to the human beings having to live through the torture, the beatings, the denigration, the subhuman treatment?
Statement 3: You qouted MLK: It's impossible for me to condemn the rioting, without also condemning the conditions that lead to the rioting.

Statement 1: To make this comment in the middle of the terrorist attack and imply that it would be fine philosophical debate to debate when violence is justified. I think is automatically trying to justify the violence.

example: United States white supremacist shoots up a bar with 50 black people. Person X comes to forum and starts talking about how it would be a fine philosophical debate to debate when violence is justified. I dont think many people would let that slide.

Statement 2: Implying there is no other option to the Palestine people but to do these kinds of actions justified by their torture beatings denigration and subhuman treatment.

Statement 3: Your defense was i was just quoting MLK. I dont understand if we pretending to not know what implications are or what?

Example: I steal i cookie and you start quoting me Quran about thiefs punishments where its recommended to cut thief hands. Do you understand that the implication is to cut my hands because i stole the cookie? If not explain what the implication would be.

Explanation: Before your MLK quote there was another comment by OutByEaster? he said: Not so much a war, more a prison riot.

So i believe its very clear that you saw what OutByEaster? said and then with MLK quote you tried minimize the events. Phrase Prison riot automatically minimizes the terrorist attack. Prison conditions automatically gives justification to the terrorist attack.

9 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

Today's highlights over my morning cuppa scanning VT include dismissing the relevance of the killing of children in a conversation about killing innocents and cheerleading actual torture of people. It's quite the thread.

Im happy to talk to you but please explain this comment to me in more detail.

1 hour ago, bickster said:

Not sure if this is entirely serious. Are you a comedy scriptwriter by any chance? Because the statement....

"I think Palestine main cause is to try to survive and defend their land from parties countries who don't like Palestine existing." is equally if not more valid, after all it's Israel that is continually taking land from the Palestinians, not the other way around.

I'm not taking sides in any of this but come back to us with that statement when Palestinians have taken land from Israel that is internationally recognised as Israeli.

Currently there is only one country of the two that is having it's very existence threatened and it isn't Israel.

I find your argument most disingenuous and exhibiting bias which is fine in itself but I will also treat it accordingly

 

So if im not mistaken Hamas were elected in pretty democratic election by their standards in 2006. By then Hamas were established terrorist organization who made multiple suicide bomber and other attacks. So i guess we have completely different view of what country fighting for survival looks like.

I think if a country wants to survive or they are fighting for their survival they elect leaders who promise to strengthen their country. I think we should see strengthening army focuses on the allies economy prosperity international relationships and trade building. For those who still have no idea who i am talking about its Israel.

I guess in your view when you see country who is fighting for their survival you expect to see a country whose terrorist organization gains their popularity and votes by using suicide bombers against the country they want to destroy or weaken. People were so satisfied of Hamas business and what they are doing they elect them so they could do what? a non stop attacks for years to come and weaken the country they dont like? For those who still have no idea who im talking about its Palestine. 

Or do you actually believe they elected them with an idea or promises of better safer life better economy better infrastructure trades and allies? 

11 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Aren't both sides of the conflict (Hamas and Israel) using 60 or 100 or 4000 year historic excuses to support their cause?

Yah they are in a broader sense of the conflict and i dont care about any side who does that. I think Israel main cause is to try to survive and defend their land from parties countries who dont like Israel existing. I really dont think that israel main thinking right now is that we were here 2000 years ago so we justified or entitled to that or that.

4 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Ok, I tried. You keep shouting until you win. You bludgeon people until they accept all your points. 

It’s worked really well so far.

 

 

What the actuall fu** is happening????

Well i hoped to show the hypocrisy of VILLAMARV with that comment. Do i really need to explain more? i dont think im prepared to explain every sentence to you. You mentioned something about language barrier the other day i dont think i can help you with that. Or maybe you should calm down because this is very emotional topic and then calmly look at what is being said here.

I wanted to show how people in here from day 1 actually from minute 1 minimizing or excusing the events (ONE OF THE BIGGEST TERORIST ACTS) Yes calling it a riot is excusing and minimizing.

I see games being played in this forum by some people including you and i dont like it. I see demonization i see dishonesty back handed comments who excuse or rationalize one side but not another. I think this is left leaning space so people are prepared to ignore some really really bad comments and they let them fly by like its nothing. Im not prepared to do that.

I dont think i can persuade any person who is using 60 or 100 year historic excuses to minimize or excuse violence in 2023. I dont think people even understand what are they saying or implying when they use those excuses. They basically saying that a terrorist or an army can look at a world map in 1900 and they can justify any war or any violence in 2023 by "historic territorial dispute".. And thats crazy.

I dont think im shouting the loudest but good try.

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

What is it you’re hoping to win here?

Why not try to converse and persuade people rather than deny any context or history whilst calling people names and demanding absolute support.

Or you can just keep trying to shout the loudest, its your choice really.

 

October 7 by the way. 

On 07/10/2023 at 14:23, OutByEaster? said:

Not so much a war, more a prison riot.

 

On 07/10/2023 at 16:34, VILLAMARV said:

What if we don't narrow the debate though? Is a peaceful outcome possible then? There always being a choice for violence is a fine point, where it's appropriate in my eyes. When used to defend the actions of a murderous, apartheid regime it seems a little pithy if i'm honest.

The question of exactly when violence becomes 'justified' in a moral sense is a fine philosophical debate. Some people view Nelson Mandela as a cultural icon, others can't see past the bombings. But the defining point there is what other actions were left open to the human beings having to live through the torture, the beatings, the denigration, the subhuman treatment?

It's exactly the point.

On 07/10/2023 at 16:38, VILLAMARV said:

2 bits of MLK spring to mind

"Darkness cannot drive away the darkness, only light can do that"

But also

"It's impossible for me to condemn the rioting, without also condemning the conditions that lead to the rioting"

(I may well have paraphrased one or both of those)

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

I don't doubt that there's some of this out there, but where are you seeing it?

I've not seen it here to any real extent and I've not really seen it anywhere else in the mainstream media, there will always be idiots on twitter, but for the most part elsewhere, there's some support and some justified criticism, in general I'm seeing a reasonably balanced response to events on the ground, other than if I go looking for them in the weirdest corners of social media.

From your perspective I'd expect to be seeing the BBC and the Us networks and the national papers printing scathing anti-semitic hate pieces and there's absolutely none of that anywhere - the larger media organisations are almost universally supporting Israel.

What would you say is a legitimate criticism of Israel at this time?

 

 

First of all I dont believe you that you dont see any of this. But i will do this so you dont get to claim that again.
So you have not seen or heard and know nothing about:

1. Multiple prestigious school students with official letters tried justified Hamas attacks

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/us-news/no-longer-welcome-harvard-columbia-students-lose-job-offers-over-palestine-support-letter-101697697631518.html

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After several Wall Street CEOs and founders announced their intent to deny jobs to Harvard and Columbia students who had openly supported Palestine and blamed Israel after the October 7 Hamas attacks, three of them are now facing repercussions.
 

2. Violent protest rhetoric in Sydney gas all jews chants.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/sydney-government-apologizes-for-pro-palestine-protest-that-had-gas-the-jews-chants/

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Police are investigating a separate incident in Melbourne in which a group of men allegedly said they were ‘on the hunt to kill Jews’

3. New York Democratic Socialists of America praising terrorists.

https://nypost.com/2023/10/17/black-clergy-blast-dsa-urge-queens-pol-to-sever-ties-following-hamas-attack/

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A group representing New York’s black clergy is rallying around Israel and demanding a Queens pol disavow the Democratic Socialists of America for its support of Hamas.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/rep-shri-thanedar-cuts-ties-democratic-socialists-america-rcna120029

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Rep. Shri Thanedar of Michigan renounced his membership in the Democratic Socialists of America over rhetoric at a rally the group promoted a day after the Hamas attack

4.Denial that Hamas is using human shields. twitter

5.The conspiracy that Netanyahu ignored the warning so he could have pretext to invade Gaza and do a genocide. twitter

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/speech_23_5127

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Opening remarks by Vice-President Jourová at EP Plenary session: Fighting disinformation and dissemination of illegal content in the context of the Digital Services Act
Finally, we have to pay attention the rise of anti-Semitism, both offline and online. Primary, this is about security of our Jewish communities. But also, this protection has to be extended to online world. Preliminary analyses by experts point to the dramatic rise of anti-Semitic content on online platforms. X, former Twitter, seems to be particularly bad at tackling this challenge, but other platforms also must step up their work. 
 

8.BBC REUTERS AL JAZEERA just blindly repeating terrorists lies with 0 checks they edited and edited and edited it was funny and sad to watch.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/bbc-news-bbc-gaza-grant-shapps-palestinian-b2432797.html

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BBC News deputy CEO admits ‘mistake’ in live coverage of Gaza hospital bombing
A senior member of staff at BBC News has admitted the corporation made a “mistake” while covering the immediate aftermath of the bombing of a hospital in Gaza City.
 

https://nypost.com/2023/10/18/several-bbc-reporters-taken-off-air-for-alleged-pro-hamas-posts/

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The BBC has removed several Middle East reporters from the air amid allegations that they posted support for Hamas in its terrorist attacks on Israel.
BBC News Arabic reporters — including those reporting out of Egypt and Lebanon — appeared to back Palestinians or criticize the Jewish state in posts they either tweeted or liked, the Financial Times reported.
 

9.Huge online content creators like Hasan Piker raised 1 milion for palestine but his coverage is absolutely one sided with conspiratorial elements.

10. AI baby picture conspiracy theories.

11. Multiple pro Palestine rallies where people just refuse to condemn Hamas and talks like those attacks were justified. Common trend. Videos on youtube i remember one channel 5 with Andrew Callaghan 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/20/us/politics/progressive-jews-united-states.html

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On Israel, Progressive Jews Feel Abandoned by Their Left-Wing Allies
Jewish leaders and voters said they were taken aback to discover that many of their ideological allies saw them as oppressors who deserved blame following the Israel attacks.
 

https://www.gbnews.com/news/uk-marches-palestine-israel-london-birmingham-glasgow-britain

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Chants included “Judaism yes, Zionism no, the state of Israel must go”, and “5, 6, 7, 8, Israel is a terrorist state”.
Protesters also chanted “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”, despite controversy around the slogan’s meaning.
 

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/a-left-that-refuses-to-condemn-mass-murder-is-doomed.html

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And no small number of supposed leftists found in all this cause for celebration. Others, meanwhile, loudly refused to condemn Hamas’s atrocities, insisting it was not their place to decry the “military strategy” or “violent resistance” of oppressed Palestinians.

It is insane what is happening the rhetoric the denial and demonization of Israel and jewish people. 

I remember i think it was 2014 when Israel went and just killed 2000 Palestinians absolutely uneven response i felt. And i went to the forums and talked to people and i was against Israel. I was always against Israel in that conflict until 6th. 

Now i have to argue for Israel and i hate that i feel like im some conservative because people completely lost their damn minds.

The Anguished Fallout from a Pro-Palestinian Letter at Harvard | The New Yorker

The Anguished Fallout from a Pro-Palestinian Letter at Harvard

Students issued a statement blaming Israel for the Hamas attacks. Then a doxing campaign tested the courage of their conviction.