Grasshopper

......add the possibility of Grealish scoring, O‘Hare (if given the chance to play) Chester, Terry & Jedi from set pieces

What more could we ask for

10 players who can all at keast chip in

Plus

If Davis, Hogan and kebaGaby (v SHA) can also chip in

Kodjia returning (anyone have a date?)

18 minutes ago, striker said:

This is an excellent point and one which i'm concerned about too if promoted.

I actually thought before the season started that Villa wouldn't have to conduct a complete rebuild if they found themselves in the Premiership next season and posted as such. Decent spine to the team to survive in the lower echelons of the Premiership with several additions, then push on the following season.

I thought Villa would walk the Championship this season or at the very least be able secure that automatic second spot. They may still secure that second place but I have been generally shocked at the standard of football Villa are churning out at the moment which leaves me doubting that second place is attainable.

Presently I feel Villa will probably nab the last play off spot and then its in the lap of the Gods whether they achieve promotion. If they do go up and play the same way, even with further additions to the squad with the same manager I'm not sure it's going to be good enough to stop Villa coming straight back down again?  

Spot on

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

Ok.  

You argueing for sake, so I‘ll take you on

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

presumably, Scott Hogan, done his homework and researched on the style of football Steve was playing at Villa Park, before he joined. 

1 - was he promised something different?

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

He would be connected in the industry and would presumably get advice as to what he was walking in to......There were other clubs too interested in him, so he had choices. 

No WH chickened out

it was us or staying at Brentford

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

GH.....Ryan Giggs was asked recenty about opposition players trying to stop players like him......He said.....his words not mine.......""You have to adapt"....."You have to find a way around it"....."thats what we do" 

Ryan Giggs - one of the very few home grown World class players the PL has witnessed

Hogan WAS a CH player scoring goals in the Ch.

what a ridiculous compareson

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

Thats what decent players do.........ADAPT. 

describing Ryan Giggs as decent is quite unbelievable

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

stop looking to blame someone you don't care for and try to make it credible. 

I‘m not

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

At present, we have no forward line.....not once have you recognised that in your comments....  

That is not true, we have had fit forwards for every game

and

I dont have to because its irrelevant

see below

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

you can't get midfield players to negate that with any kind of expected success.

It is our MFers who HAVE been scoring

Hourihane was played in his prefered position ONCE - he scored a hattrick

Onomah Adomah Snod and Lansbury have all done a „Kodjia“

Surely ANYONE with even only half a brain cell can see that the TEAM PLAY should be setup/adjusted/adapted to that way so to take advantage of that.

But NO you insist on defending someone whose responsiblility is to do exactly that

22 hours ago, TRO said:

Maybe I am wrong......

I agree

22 hours ago, TRO said:

But I can't remember a managers name being mentioned with so many aspects of the club that this guy does.  

Maybe because the things that some fans are most concerned about are directly his responsibilty

22 hours ago, TRO said:

you see if you had of said " I think Solanke would suit US better" I could understand it. 

the US being the way we play which is down to......?

22 hours ago, TRO said:

This obsession with Bruce is whats forcing some of us to defend him.  

The defending of someone who is failing to reach the desired target is your obsession

22 hours ago, TRO said:

I don't think that line in the way you have worded it would be rolled out with any other manager.

Who is the first man out the door when thinks go south?

Are you suggesting it should be different at AVFC?

4 hours ago, Nigel said:

Who ever it is I hope we get him in early.  At least if it goes wrong we can make amends later in the window.

 

a la - Buying Elmo for Adomahs position -> loaning Snod for Elmo

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

Hook the manager 

Yes

Quote

Well there's a shock. 

No - my long standing opinion

Quote

No what I am highlighting is coaching individual players has its limits.....you seem to allude to the notion that the coach is responsible for the players poor play.  

Our players ARE good enough to play better and more effective than they do. The coaches and manager are not getting the best out of them.

Quote

I disagree with that.

your perogative

1 minute ago, hippo said:

Good job that has not been applied over the years - Ron Saunders would have been sacked for signing Tommy Craig and David Geddes and Graham Taylor for signing Tony Cascarino 

You have missunderstood.

Those signings had varying levels of success/failure. 

The point is

Signing a player then playing him in a different way to how they are used to/function better. THEN expecting them to adapt regardless of their physical stature being suited or not to that way

Just now, TRO said:

GH......Have you ever heard the term " you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear"

It was probably written for folks like you who get confused between " coaches & Magicians"

Tro

I wrote

a bog-standard one instead of a shit one should be able to get something more out of who we have

On 12/12/2017 at 15:59, TRO said:

Yes and No

Klopp made it clear that he was not getting the desired movement from Benteke.

He(Klopp) failed to get that from him, presumably from working on the training ground at Melwood.....one of the worlds best managers/ coaches.

He then chose his other option.....gone.

The manager has to take responsibility for signing the player......as for scoring or even his first touch, thats down to the professional football player for me

its a team game and yes you need service, but equally the players giving  you that service need to trust you will not be wasteful with there work, its a two way street, not a one way one.....The manager equally needs to trust the player, will not be wasteful thus puuting the defence under pressure.

There are no free lunches....every player must do his bit......and if you play up front, no matter how much you dress it up......you have to score.....its what it says on the tin.

All you are highlighting there is that if a player you have doesnt suit your style - you hook him

which is what Klopp did

What Bruce did was to buy a player who didnt suit his style and played him in the hope that he would/could adapt.

in this case , the logical conclusion would be to hook the manager

On 12/12/2017 at 15:44, TRO said:

Well we can use points all day......and no i disagree, its down to the player in the main.

like lets get the super coach from sunderland, you know the one that teaches Lewis Grabban to score 11 goals in a struggling team.

I would prefer the player thanks.

In your effort to defend yourself you have stated the obvious flaw in your explanation

a „not even super coach“ a bog-standard one instead of a shit one should be able to get something more out of who we have

On 09/12/2017 at 16:50, bannedfromHandV said:

Were you saying this when we signed him in January? 

thats irrelevant to the the point he is making

On 12/12/2017 at 02:35, TRO said:

So by deduction, is Klopp and Hodgson no good......because Benteke can't score.

Benteke was prolific with us..........and.

give me a break.

that is irrelevant

you are misdirecting away from the point

1 minute ago, villakram said:

You're not engaging in the discussion but simply looking to defend yourself here. After a certain period of time a team is a reflection of it's manager. There is so much empirical evidence of this that it is not really up for much debate. Time and again, we see managers go into clubs and change things around... both positive and negative. To not accept that Bruce bears a large portion of the responsibility for how we play is a weak position to take. 

Reducing this to, Bruce can't make players trap a ball etc., is simply zooming in to look at the details, where of course there will be some truth. But, it's the manager who sets the team and it's mentality, hence, at a minimum the 2nd best squad in the championship looking bang average more often than not.

spot on

1 minute ago, mrjc said:

Yes, this absolutely could be the reason.  We take a smaller accounting 'loss' in the early years of his contract by keeping him, maybe taking a loan fee and a % of wages paid...rather than writing off a large amount all at once due to selling him at a loss.

 

thanx

I was an apprentice accountant after leaving school - the most mundane 6 months of my life - not for me

My squad list would be

GK - SJ JS Sarkic

Sell/give away Bunn = Fee/save wages

RB - Bree RDL

Sell/give away Hutton = Fee/save wages

LB - NT 

Loan in LB

CB - JC JT 

Buy/Loan in CB

Sell/give away/pay someone Richards out the door -> wages saved = fee to willing club (come on Sunderland, you know you want to)

Sell/give away Elphick Samba = Fee/save wages

DM Jedi

Buy/Loan in DM

Sell if possible Whelan = Fee/save wages

RW Snod Elmo

LW Adomah Green

CM Hourihane Lansbury Onomah

AM Grealish O‘Hare McC

** Note - Keep McC = Sell Bruce (if possible)

CF - Kodjia (when he returns) Davis Hogan

Buy/Loan in CF

Sell/Give away

** Note - Keep Hogan = Sell Bruce (if possible

Gollini and other loanee (outs) push a sale

I don‘t know how much cash we have left to play with. Maybe the Dr can „Create“ a sponsorship deal that allows us a shot at getting in a CF (top priority) a CB (2nd priority) and if we can go the whole hog, a DM „destroy & distribute“ and LB

@mrjc

Could this be a reason for not selling McC for less than

 Outlay fee - 1 year right off?

thus loaning him out

meaning

possible loan fee and saved wages = reducing outgoings

Question - does this amount count as a direct „profit“ or not?

7 minutes ago, mrjc said:

You're essentially correct - selling Hogan for a 'loss' now would be bad for our FFP position.

The detail....

Using Hogan as an example - let's say we signed him for £12m on a five-year deal (not sure on either detail).  In this case, that £12m gets spread across the life of his contract - so he 'costs' us (from an accounting point of view and excluding wages) £2.4m per year.

Day 1: asset value £12m

End of year 1:

• 'loss' recorded £12m/5 years = £2.4m
• Updated asset value £12m - £2.4m = £9.6m

End of year 2:

• 'loss' recorded £12m/5 years = £2.4m
• Updated asset value £9.6m - £2.4m = £7.2m

etc until the end of his contract.

So selling him at the end of year 1 for (say) £5m:  at that point he has an asset value to us of £9.6m...so we would have an accounting loss of £4.6m.  This absolutely goes into the FFP calculation as a loss.

It may seem unfair - but on the flip side, when we bought him for £12m that was not recognised as a 'loss', as it's spread across the contract.

Basically though - if we buy high and sell low, we will be penalised by FFP for it.  Sorry if that's all added to the complexity!

 

 

Thanx

Could you please dissect my „Buy Benteke - Refurbish the bogs“ post?

11 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Because he highlighted all the games in which we haven't won and said, 'after each of these I wanted the manager sacked, but then that faded when we won but resurfaced after we lost again'...

Let me explain something.

I and many others who critisize Bruce want Villa to win/get promoted. Full stop.

We watch the games and are of course happy when we win because its good for AVFC which is what we want.

Also what we see in those winning games (draws/losses) which causes us concern is very much the reasons why we think we do lose/draw/drop pts.

We see it and comment on it. Therefore it is frustrating to see something that we (in our opinions) think is a problem for us, be the reason why we drop points.

We ALL want Villa to win promotion.

Those who support/reel of excuses for Bruce can feel free to do so.

Those who slate him stating why they do so equally.

The simple fact is. Wolves are showing us how to do it. We are staggering through a season. That stagger could result in enough ups to get us 2nd or top 6. The stagger could also mean another up-stagger could coincide with the 3 games of the playoffs. The stagger may also result in an opposite which condems us to a further season down here which may result in a number of further seasons down here.

IMHO if course, I think its more than a bit rich to patronise or condescend on someone who is of the opinion that this „flying by the seat of our pants“ is more likely to fail than succeed. ESPECIALLY when everyone to a man who has critisized Bruce for whatever has also stated „I HOPE I‘M WRONG“. Now I dont expect anyone supporting Bruce to hope they are wrong for us to fail just to equalize the admittance balance. But, what is it about the status quo that deems automatically right and the alternative automatically wrong?

Where‘s that article describing his tenure at Sunderland when you need it?

11 hours ago, vreitti said:

Wouldn't it be great if we just bought all the outstanding performers form the other teams...

...oh wait we did this already last January. That sure worked out great.

Yeah

great Idea

we could play them out of position

give them jobs/tasks to do that they are not physically built for

we could also play them occasionally in their prefered/best position, maybe they could score a hattrick so that we know they were a good buy, then put them 20yrds further back so they were unable to do it again

we could just of course use them in the blame game deflecting the fault away from the manager

oh man, now that would be hysterical

16 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

I honestly do see where you are coming from and it is hard not to agree with you.

Like me you have witnessed the same shit for too long and reality is too hard to ignore.

I also agree with many other posters positive team line ups for this game and on paper we should be taking 3 points from this game and ripping up this league.

The reality of it for me is sadly the reality and that this squad on paper is led by a very hot and cold manager.

I think we have the potential to spring a suprise and nick this only marginally by no more than a goal.

It could be one where Derby have 46 shots on target and 76% possession over the entire game and score 1 goal, - Villa have 24% possession, 2 shots on target and 2 goals.

However, my heart tells me don't count on it and Derby win 4-0 and it's a keep out the Steve Bruce thread to you all.

As things stand. Things could go either way and it is just so unpredictable.

We must get a minimum of 1 pt from this game however scrappy, whatever the line up and I am going to say this game will end as..

Rigo (if I can call you that)

Nothing would please me more than for us to win our way to promotion out of this league.

I‘d say „thanx Brucie“ even if a big part of my heart and soul would think that it would be a combination of our players v the shit this league has to offer.

The truth is

I havent seen enough from Bruce to believe, even with our players and the shit that is in this league, that we could get promoted.

It seems that Chelski, Citeh, Real and PSG (probably others too) have „creative methods“ to get around ffp by investment through sponsorship.

Am I being too far fetched (or off the radar) to think something along the lines of the following example.

Say, for instance, Benteke became available. Palace would want a fee to reinvest in other players. Say 15mill fee and Benteke would want 80kpw plus bonuses. (call it 100kpw) 100kpw for the remaining 25 weeks (or so) till 01.06.2018 (would it be our cut off for the last year of the 3 -or is it another date?)

We‘re talking an immediate outlay of 15mill spread over 5years = 3mill per year (immortation ?)

So if we refurbish the Holte End toilets and call them „The Recon Waste Management facilities“ for an initial outlay of say 20mill ( the true cost for the modern crappers being 5mill) with running/maintenance costs of 101kpw (bog-roll cant be that expensive plus a few flushes of grade C water from Perry Hall park) surely we have not accrued a loss, and, an Income has covered an expenditure.

or is it not that simple.

Hey, why not have the best bogs in the world. A tourist attraction with the slogan „Shit like a King - Shit at the Villa“

9 minutes ago, dn1982 said:

Hogans fee would’ve been spread across his contract. So say £10m is £2m a season over 5 years don’t think it was that’s high but. Then if you sell him for £5m that’s goes on the balance sheet for that year so in effect you’re up for the year but down overall. That’s what I read but like most FFP is baffling and if you’re creative can be sorted out. 

So basically its risk to reward or bust depending on promotion or not.

@TRO

Your arguement has no foundation simply on the fact that the games/points we have won have been largely from goals scored by our MFers (Adomah, Hourihane, Onomah, Snod)

Our goals scored total by „players other than our designated forwards Kodjia, Davis, Gaby & Hogan“ is dwarfed by the rest of the squad.

So, can we deduce from that stat that there is more than 1 section of players able to score. That being a fact would support the arguement that „A team can play so as to score goals from players other than main strikers“

You just have to ser up the team that way.

Keeping the „potential“ goal scorers further away from the opponents goal by sitting back & Hoofing to whoever stands isolated on the oppositions last man, be that Davis, Kodjia or Hogan, hoping that „something will happen“ or the ball sticks long enough up top for those potential goalscorers to advance is a poor plan, giving credit to Bruce if he is indeed capable of thinking that far ahead.

You can not absolve someone of the blame if that someone is in control of the situation that is failing the objective. to score more than the opponents in each individual game to amass an amount of points to gain promotion.

22 minutes ago, TRO said:

Nope..I do not follow that line of logic.....He has a bearing on it, but does not execute it.

So you blame the players?