Grasshopper

What I dont quite understand about ffp is this:

Say we are borderline but on the good side, we then sell Hogan for 5mill (is a 7mill loss on the 12mill figure.).

We buy or pay a 1mill loan fee for a player and pay him the same wages (just fir calculation sake) who bangs em in for fun or not.

Is it the correct calculation that says

1. a 12mill asset sold at 5mill creates a further loss of 7mill which is added to our „loss“ figure thus takes us over the ffp borderline into the bad side

2. Our new 1mill players value as an asset does not increase regardless if he bangs em in or not. a profit will only incurr IF A, he‘s bought for 1mill sold for more (decreasing our losses?) or B, said parent club are happy with our „development“ of their player and reward us 5million for doing so (not that it would happen)

My point is, once an outlay is made regardless if it keeps us within or pushes us over the ffp legal line, the successful or unsuccessful performances dont come into the calculation untill he‘s either (bought) -> sold (loan) -> we are rewarded.

?????

If so

Selling Hogan for an amount less than we paid for him is pointless because that loss effectively increases our overall loss.

Does anyone know enough about ffp to explain either way? please -> thanx

Ladies & Gentlemen of the forum

After this Derby game, Brace yourselves for 6th with Leeds 1pt behind us and Boro 2pts behind us

29 minutes ago, TRO said:

I agree about the play......But I clearly have a difference of opinion as to the cause.

When you agree with the play, you also agree with the cause.

Because

The cause is the play

The play is instigated by Bruce

Bruce is thus the cause

The circle is complete

Then you most certainly must be of the opinion -> Bruce Out

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

I guess if he wasn't here and everything was the same.....you would struggle really wouldn't you.

I really have no doubt that any manager who was given our squad (even Bruces signings) would get us playing differently (better - results progressing as a result)

Bruces way will get some results but not enough I‘m afraid. He‘s proved it in the past, is proving it at the very moment and will prove it till the day he‘s done here.

It‘s a continuum of inconsistant results as a product of an inconsistant method of play (Method? What Method?)

works both ways doesnt it?

The difference being

Given a chance on the pitch - not set up to fail - Adomah scores

Bruce has a chance EVERY game to stamp his mark on it

His mark is a smelly brown one, just like the Sunderland fan „curled out“ in the stands

Just now, TRO said:

At the time his form was unpredictable and you know it.

At the time the selections and tactics were unpredictable and you know it

52 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

For Bruce's credit he utilised the decent ones like Chester, adomah and froze the shit like Richards, elphick, McCormack Tish etc out.  

The one he replaced twice 

left him in the stands

was forced to bring him back due to injuries

1 hour ago, TRO said:

But why are they easier to come by?.....Tell Sunderland that or Hull 

1 The level of football gets lower as you go down the leagues

Would you agree?

1 hour ago, TRO said:

If you only have players for that league, surely its the same. 

No as this below explains it to you

1 hour ago, TRO said:

IF hypothetically you put a premier league team in that division.......then i would agree.

SJ - Loaned from a PL club

AH - spent most of his career as a PL player and Scottish international (and as shit as he ever was - but not if you believe some on here)

JC - Bought from a PL club - Euro semifinalist

JT - CL PL titles England captain

NT -  Bought from a PL club - Euro semifinalist (?) Welsh international at least

Elmo - Bought from a PL club International

Whelan - Bought from a PL club - Irish international

Jedi - Bought from a PL club - Aussie international

Adomah - Bought from a PL club

Snod - Loaned from a PL club

Onomah - Loaned from a PL club

I‘ll add for „fact over ability“ 

Gaby & Richards

There is virtually a PL team there

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Wins are wins and if you are in that division, presumably you deserve to be.

out of interest Would you argue or agree that

The squad who took us down deserve to be here

The players who have been brought in are deserved of a higher league (with a proper manager of course)

And you still persist in excuses and fob-offs to why we are not 

1 top of the league

2 2nd a class above the rest of this league

All in the defence of an underperforming Bruce

**shakes head in disbelief**

2 hours ago, wilko154 said:

No it really couldn't... 

That team would currently be battling relegation with Blues

Sorry

your opinion is wrong IMHO

1 hour ago, bobzy said:

He's doing a decent job, for sure.  I'm assuming it's because he's Portuguese and has been called "mini Mourinho" that he is revered as the second coming?

if Silva is the 2nd coming then Bruce is the last coming turning our lights off on his way out.

2 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I work with some great Managers, sometimes those Managers move on to other companies to further their careers, does that make them bad Managers all of a sudden? No.

Let's hope you never get a Managerial role eh, by your logic that will be your last ever job.

Your position under these great managers you say you‘ve worked under is obviously not football-related

1 minute ago, Demitri_C said:

No he isnt grasshopper. All you have to do is look at the win ratios to see that is completely wrong 

sorry mate

You are wrong.

He clearly said ONE OF THE.....

which includes him in that group of managers

In FACT

One can argue that 

Lambert overachieved with what he had at his disposal, McLose was at least successful in keeping us in the PL (oh that hurts to even suggest that) and that even Sherwoods „end of season“ tenure was a success. Survival & an FACup final (writing that hurts even more)

All could be deemed as overachievements

Bruce is underachieving.

Opinions and all that......

Stating that „AR82 is WRONG“ in saying what he said is wrong by definition of facts

23 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

This thread is amazing.

One of the most useless managers to grace Villa Park.
Have you got a straight face when you type that? Have you been living under a rock for the reigns of Lambert, Garde, Sherwood, Di Matteo, McLeish etc?

He‘s right

He is one of the most useless along with those you have mentioned.

Lambert kept us up despite Lerner

Garde was shat on from the greatest height so he had no chance to save us

Sherwood, as much as I despite the cockney-wide-boy-bell-end, oversaw survival and an FACup run before (during)he was found out.

Di Matteo didnt address the obvious problems

As for Mclose - the only positive from his tenure was that we didnt get relegated

Read my previous post if you want to know the state of things under Bruce

19 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

Funny then, if you can see all these flaws in our players that our world beater of a manager cannot see and deal with them (you know, do his job). He has had 3 transfer windows and a year with this squad and there has been very little visible progress. 

To say our players are simply not good enough is scraping the barrel in the defense of Steve Bruce to be frank. Lets say for one minute that I agree with you (i Don't) and we do not have one of the best squads in the league - we have not managed to beat any of the current top 8 teams - so we have the 9th best squad of players in the league?

The main problem here is the manager and his ability to get the best out of these players. They were all doing very well at their respective clubs, yet they come here and pretty much turn to s**t overnight. I'm sorry I just don't buy that.

Ultimately as the manager - he is responsible for the performance of the team - if the players are not good enough then he has to replace them or coach them to be better. If the players are not responding to his methods, then he has to do something about it. That's his job as manager, that's what he is paid millions of pounds for.  That's what all his vast experience should be bringing.

Making statements like the players aren't good enough, of FFP is hindering his ability to get us playing better are excuses for poor managerial abilities, nothing more. Other teams manage to produce better football with far less funds and with less skillfull players. Why is that? Could it be that their manager & coaches are doing a better job?

 

Absolutely 100%

It is beyond a joke how useless Bruce is at the job Managing Aston Villa football club.

It‘s excuse after excuse. 

Someone posted that he is a coward and got slated for it. But you know what?

Dead f***** right he is.

Scared to trust the players, scared to take the game to the opposition. Scared of risking offensive play for waiting to see what the opposition does so the effort is spent on negating them.

Hiding behind excuses, attempting to overpower critisism by deeming it hysterics, Blaming the players, ffp and whatever the gullible will swallow.

Bruce has been given time, money and support. He has the most expensively assembled squad in the history of the division. The support from a board ANY manager could dream of. A fan-base who would idolise him if he delivered. Players with the ability and experience of a higher division, CL medal, PL title, Internationals.

Yet he delivers shit football, no tactics, no pattern of play, no consistancy of level of performance and results. An Absolute disgrace to the club, the fans, the clubs standing within football, our history and our future.

Bruce has no excuse whatsoever for not delivering. He has not delivered, is not delivering and there has been zero evidence that he will deliver.

Not getting promotion is not an option. It will have been a complete waste of money, time and effort from anybody and everybody at the club.

Aston Villa being stuck in this division has no future. The top 6 in PL will just march full steam ahead from the rest. One only has to look at the table to see that Burnley (yes Burnley) are the best of the rest. wtf?

Are we so „out of it, sh*t“ that we have to accept such dire football, being played of the park by Brentford, out muscled by Cardiff, out thought by Millwall and game for game being shown up by teams, Players & managers who show us exactly what we are as a football club here and now?

We have NO leadership, we have no recognisable concept of how to play a game of football against inferior opposition - I say inferior opposition because we should be superior - We have no style and no grace. It‘s all down to the manager, Steve Bruce.

As a Lifelong Villa fan whos journey started in the relegation season down to Div3 I can honestly say with hand on heart we are at the crossroads towards or away from the lowest point in our history. This season is very much the last chance saloon.

The Div3 Aston Villa was a club in turmoil, which due to the „non-SKY“ era, had the chance to sort itself out and rise again.

Our previous relegation, was also at a time where it was possible to get back and rise to compete.

Our last relegation was a watershed moment, we had long circled the drain with no direction from Lerner other than cut losses and see what happens.

We were at a new dawn season 2016/17. The old had to go and the new had to deliver. The „old“ that are still here are

Richards - who is not played

Gaby - who is either injured, effective for a few and uninterested for the rest of the games.

&

Hutton - a shit footballer standing in the way of youth and progress in the RB position

The New is/are

SJ - good/bad and everything inbetween

Chester - PL level and International player

Taylor too

Terry - say no more

Whelan & Jedi - PL players

Snod Elmo Adomah Onomah PL players

Hourihane & Lansbury - top performers for their previous clubs

Hogan & McC - miss-used (missunderstood?) proven goalscorers at this level

& Kodjia

All the above and we are not competing with Wolves. Disgracefull

How/why is it that

Wolves can - Get a new owner/manager/players and go straight to the top of the league?

Teams come to VP and have a clear concept of how to play?

Teams above around or below us, simply use the ball better than we do?

Answer - Steve Bruce‘s inability to get the best or at least an acceptable level of performance from the above mentioned players (plus the rest of our squad/Youth players)

BRUCE OUT

22 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

Let's say it's 8 points going into the start of April.

Easter Monday (April 2nd I think). We play Reading at home. Cardiff go to Sheffield United. We win, they lose -= 5 points.

Following Saturday they play Wolves at home. We go to Ipswich/Norwich (can remember which one as we play both in the run in away). Cardiff- Wolves is a draw. We win in East Anglia.

Gap is then 3 points going into the following Tuesday when we play Cardiff at home. Beat them and possible then to go above them on GD with 3/4 games left.

That's obviously a best case scenario but shows you how gaps can be cut quickly.

Cardiff have a very tough last 10 games anyway so there would be an opportunity if we can stay in touch I reckon.

I admire your optimism in calculating what could be.

The doubt I have is that DrT wont be here often enough to give enough motivational speeches and oversee the games to insure these 3 wins on the trot we will need.

Just now, Stevo985 said:

I'll go back to scrolling past your posts.

thanx

1 minute ago, sne said:

Isn't it against the rules for clubs to approach players without consent from the other club?

Like what Plop did with Van Dijk.

Not sure how it works with managers, or if it has much relevance about Bruce.

Well IF someone did approach Bruce the club should at least offer them a 3 for 1 deal Bruce, Hutton & Gaby

3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I read one of your posts for once.

Unsurprisingly it was nothing to do with what you were quoting so I'm not sure why you did that.

it was in answer to your „praising Bruce“ not the Dr

I stated what M118 said

I then went on with my opinion of why.

Admittedly I expanded on the managers position - which is also relevant because if he was de-positioned we couldnt „not praise him“ for credit.

anyway

If you dont understand what you read - dont read

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This

22 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

We've got plenty of winnable games from January onwards. Look at some of the fixtures we have in February and March (Burton, SHA, QPR home, Hull, Sunderland, Bolton away etc).

I can see us having another run of 4-5 wins in a row in that period.

Problem will be though if we have a dip over the next few weeks and Cardiff get more wins so the gap to second is something stupid like 12-15 points. Would be too much I fear.

I'm basing my assumption we can still get second on the current gap not getting bigger than something like 8 or 9 points. Obviously if it does we've got little chance of turning that around unless Cardiff totally collapse in the run in.

 

if it is ONLY 8/9pts are we going to win 3 MORE games than Cardiff whilst drawing/losing no more than them.

The ultimate irony would be that of a club spending £30+mill on forwards to fail getting 2nd (Auto) or even 6th on goal difference (Whilst having an International captain who has won the PL & CL and an International who reached a Euro semi-final as CB‘s in the 2nd teer)

27 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

People really starting to attribute good results to the chairman instead of the manager?

The reluctance to give Bruce any credit ever is hilarious on here at times.

Michael118 just quoted some stats.

indeed facts.

I personally do not find it hilarious that despite the praise that some poster give Bruce for the games he has won, we are not in a position that garantees promotion neither do we look like a team capable of it.

We may currently be in a playoff position BUT I would like to state that it is my opinion that we are in a situation where we may soon find ourselves out of one, with an ever increasing injury/loss of form list due to the managers decisions.

The only Hilarity on here is the „overall“ defence of Bruce. Granted, the extreme examples given by both sides of the arguement (and I include MYSELF as a guilty party) about individual reasons/games/selections/decisionsare not to be taken as 100% definitive.

However, looking at the whole shebang so far, Bruce has 2 legs that hardly have the strength to stand on.

Arguments for or against are irrelevant because

Do we keep Bruce and find out if he can or cant?

Do we sack him and give someone else a crack at it?

Either being right or wrong!

Will DrT go with it or make a change?

24 minutes ago, Michael118 said:

*accentuates

thanx

I spelt it a number of times as it didnt look right and iphone kept „in-correcting“ it so I eventually gave up and stuck with that.

17 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Barring that January period we have not been consistently worse that is massively incorrect grasshopper. we have been consistently better but had blips along the way. these blips need to happen lesser than what they have thats for sure if we have aspirations for top two. 

We’re all guilty of taking examples to the extreme.

The facts are simple

1st & 2nd gets us promoted automatically.

Q1 can we achieve that?

We would have to up our ppg ratio till the end of the season to do so. Every defeat would put us back 2 winning games to make it back up (over a win/draw/win/draw continual run) (that is then effectively a 4 game period of non-stop winning)

The more points we drop, the less games we have to make up the difference.

Playoffs

The reality of the playoffs is this. we would have to beat 2 out of the 3 playoff positioned teams (us being the 3rd)

IF our head to head with those teams (and teams at that level of „result getters“) is inferior, what can anyone base their judgement on?

it‘s mathematically 50/50 ONLY because someone has to win the tie/game (be it result, agg. or pens)

Surely that can not be an aim?

a „if it‘s all that‘s left“ yes

but ideal it is not.

2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Thanks for the half compliment    

my pleasure

Disagreeing with someone does not mean you dont respect their opinion.

2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I do think if Bruce had more options for strikers Davis would be playing a little less as the "main target man striker to score"  as davis's finishing is dreadful. i think players should be supporting but sometimes i find hourihane go missing in games. like i said iin a different post it was a bit of a mess on Saturday. Lansbury was playing deep and whelan was going more attacking. Was the manager instructing that? I am not so sure as whelan is dreadful when he gets near the opposition box. .  

This is typical for me and what I most despise about how Bruce sets us up.

2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

with the workload thats again down to limited options.

I have to disagree here

If all Davis is doing is chasing and trying to hold up play till he gets support then he‘ll get both tired and de-motivated when we dont become successful through his efforts

If our overall play dictated that he was „involved“ in play that was continually creating chances for both him and supporting players, he would be clearly motivated and be driven by adrenaline.

Theres the difference

2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

hopefully now players are coming back might reduce that. but davis himself needs to work his game. his finishing has been shocking lately and his first touch has been pathetic at times. Cant keep blaming fatigue for this, i mean he had had a 8 day rest if your still tired after 8 days your never going to make it to top levels of football 

I mostly work with people at least 10 years younger than me. It is very rare that I‘m not the „last one standing“ simply because My experience is drawn upon to pace myself for a 10/12 hour working day. Davis needs the games and experience to pace himself, regardless of how young or fit he is, we can not expect him to be a seasoned pro before 20yrs

in before the vultures

#humblebrag

3 minutes ago, Michael118 said:

He also said he was going to "stick around" for the next 2 home games against Sunderland and Ipswich. So it's 3 wins in a row since the motivational speech and while he was here and 2 draws against Leeds and Milwall at home since he left. Our record was 2 wins out of the last 5 leading up to the QPR game including the loss at home to Sheffield Wednesday which was the game before the motivational speech.

that info only excentuates my point