Glarmorgan

Maqroll, as someone blames the "Zionist" in being racist - who is a Zionist. Are there any Arab Zionist? What is Zionism? A political movement? A religious movement? How many here actually know what Zionism is? Bothered to run a quick inspection in Wikipedia, just to gain some knowledge? How many people here were ever in touch with an Israeli Zionist, not to mention - being in Israel? Racist? The only country in the middle east where Arab citizens have full democratic rights, and you're talking about racism? Well, I consider myself as Zionist - a true believer in the creation of a Jewish state on this land. Does this make me a racist? a violent scum killing Arabs all day long? Can anyone point his finger towards me and my 620 posts (including the ones in the amusing GIFs thread) and honestly say that my words brought him to a conclusion that I am am racist? Arab hater? Something of that sort? I knew my opinions and my point of view will not be too popular here. That is quite alright, but still, I tried to initiate some sort of discussion, an exchange of thoughts. I have never expected this. While I am being targeted by Hamas rockets - you will still not find a single sentence where I generalize all Arabs into terrorists or Israel haters. I've spent years of my life playing in an Arab-Jewish football club (a crappy left back), I work in the city of Ramla, which is a mixed city with a relatively large Arab population. I work with Arabs, I had Arab colleagues. I spent more time in homes of Arab friends than most of the people here, if not all. Anyone here is entitled to completely disagree with what I say. that is perfectly fine. One can even mock my level of English - I don't care. That's a part of the game, but at the same time - the least I expect is to be treated fairly. That line was NOT fair.

Scroll up a couple of entries, catch the entries of "the racist and violent Zionists", continuing with the claim they are already in control over the USA. Who is in control? the "Zionists"?

Before accusing me - you can go over the responses here. The discussion went from "The Israelis are bad" to "the problem is the Jews". My so-called automatic responses? Israel accepted cease fire conditions which Hamas refused. Hamas ceasefire conditions relate, mostly to Egypt (open Rafah border), Qatar and Abu Mazen (transfer the salaries for the Hamas employees in the Gaza Strip). Still, the rockets are aimed at Israel, as the Hamas knows that if the Egyptian army will get into battle - Gaza will be no more. The entire western world supports Israel up to this point, including the war crazy maniacs of Canada and France - but people here point the fingers at "the Jews" and the "Jewish control" of the USA, talking about "AIPAC", completely ignoring the strong left wing "J Street". God bless the Jews - they give you all someone to put the blame on. This is appalling.

And some insights from the Egyptian TV... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VtENBF_yjo

And in regard to the next generation hatred. Let me know if you have such educational programs over there in the UK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57Q8K5TmivM

1. Israel wasn't the one declaring the cease fire. It was arranged by Egypt and Israel accepted its terms, and kept it for 7 hours, while the Hammas ignored it. The Hammas pissed of the Egyptians now. Not a smart move in my opinion. 2. As I posted earlier, Hammas is not shooting to "free up his lost lands". Beside, Hammas calls for the annihilation of Israel AND the Jews. They claim to keep on fighting till the state of Israel cease to exist. Not something you can negotiate... 3. If Hammas was to save as many lives in Gaza as it could - they should have accepted the ceasefire. They knew that by not accepting it they will bring only pain to Gaza. They chose to keep firing despite their total failure at the moment.

Israel aim its weapons towards the Hammas rockets, rocket launchers and armories. There are civilian casualties for sure, but they were not the target. The future with Hammas, as I see it, holds nothing. This issue cannot be solved. Israel will not re-conquer Gaza and the Hammas is unable to harm Israel thanks to the Iron Dome (about 1200 rocket launches brought 1 casualty up today). Ceasefire is the most that can be achieved with Hammas and the Gaza situation can only be resolved as a part of an overall agreement with the Palestinians and the Arab world.

That Israeli forces have been involved in atrocities is undeniable, unfortunately. That doesn't make them the same as the SS, or make Israel like Nazi Germany, but nevertheless, it's almost like the thing where an abused child grows up into an abuser. Another view from outside is that Israel, as a "first world" nation with all the arms, media and technological advantages that brings is certainly using that overwhelming superior capability to obliterate people with none of those things, and then use media to "defend" the conduct. Israel has to change in order to bring about peace, but it can't or doesn't want to. Sabra and Shatila is a dark point in our history. In undeniable, but in order to try and compare it to atrocities as the Nazis did you need to show consistency and to show this was a part of a bigger plan. Not that it's that important, but to make it clear - the slaughter in Sabra and Shatila was not done by Israeli soldiers. The Israeli soldiers should have defended to Muslims and prevented this - no doubt about it. In regard to Israel's superior capabilities - that's a given. As you can probably imagine, Israel's arsenal holds a bit more than is currently used in Gaza and still - you cannot expect Israel to seek a "proportionate" response and ignoring its advantages. That Hammas should think twice before launching an attack at a vastly superior opponent. Or maybe it's exactly what they want ... Beside, what is that "proportionate" response everyone is seeking? Let's say - for every rocker launched from Gaza, the IDF should launch one 155mm Shell back? 1 for 1?

OK. 1. A cease fire was declared today at 9am Israel time. Israel ceased all offensive acts at that point of time. You can check it out. During this time Hammas launched more than 40 rockets towards Israel till 16:00, when Israel decided that enough is enough. 2. Here's what we deal here with: The truce was declared. The political arm of the Hammas accepted it. The Armed forces of the Hammas took their time to ponder over it. The Islamic Jihad rejected it, whici eventually brought the rejection of the Hammas Armed Forces. In the mean time, Abu Mazen accepted the truce and called for a ceasefire of 48. You can add a couple of rockets launched at us from Sinai last night (not an occupied territory for my best of knowledge). So - can you please tell me who do we need to speak to? to come to agreements with? 3. The Hammas list of demands include things which are not relevant to Israel. Opening the gates of the Egyptian border. Paying the salaries of the people is Gaza. P.S. There is no doubt regarding the identity of the murderers of the 3 Israelis. Their identity is known, their voices are quite clear on the recording of the call one of the kidnapped Israeli to the emergency services. No "allegedly" and not "presumed to be".

I'm not surprised that you think 'it's alright' - I'm not so sure of the 'facts' that help you towards this conclusion - but I think the argument that 'security' trumps everything (whether that be international law or whatever else) is very poor and just reinforces the post I made earlier (any actions that it can get away with, the Israeli state will pursue). It's a futile exercise to discuss Israel's actions with you when you are willing to defend anything which you believe defensible but want us to ignore or set aside as a completely separate thing policy or actions elsewhere. I think I'll leave it to others, thanks. All I try is to share thoughts and feelings from our side of the map. You keep drawing the "Palestinian problem" as you see fit, but your perception is inaccurate. Not according to my standards - according to Abu Mazen's! Even he calls for a cease fire from both parties and the Hammas ignores him. It ignores him since they do not consider themselves as one.

I'm on another forum, discussing this topic and the Israeli on that site seems to be very aggressive in his defence of Israeli aggression. Do they all read of a script or something? I mentioned this a couple of days ago. Even the wording used is similar, it's really odd. If I was the paranoid type I'd think it was orchestrated, it can't be, there surely isn't any possible merit in planting people on football forums and the like. But without meaning any disrespect to Glar, you can predict when he's going to appear, and now it appears you can even predict what phrases are going to be used on what day of the 'campaign'. I did wonder if it was simply a case of hearing a catchy phrase on the TV or reading it in the paper and all individually chose to run with it. I'm pretty sure that's what it must be. It was the tosh about tourist hotels where it became really weird. Different forums or platforms suddenly all appeared to have one representative suggesting Hammas should invest in tourism. Then it went away again. I think that the 615 posts I have in this forum ensures I am an Israeli Villa fan up and foremost. I knew what I was getting into when I started writing in this thread, but, quite frankly - I can say the same - as the Israeli "official" representatives keep repeating the same things - I run into the same issue with most of the replies here. That's quite alright - but still...

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/holland-not-with-our-money-slash-funds-to-pa/2014/07/15/

Is this what they teach Israeli kids in school? The Arabs have been thrown off their own land, had their homes stolen, and the state has been complicit in this. They are prevented from farming their remaining land by blocks and barriers enforced by armed forces who shoot to kill at the slightest excuse. Their water is taken to serve the illegal settlements, all with the active encouragement of both the government of Israel and the great majority of Israelis. Israel is the aggressor, the thief, the intruder. I find it incomprehensible that with the Nazi aggression still in living memory, so many Israelis should not only copy their approach and attitudes, but pretend to be shocked and puzzled that people should find this wholly unacceptable. What are you referring to? That Arabs within the borders of Israel are full citizens of the state. That's what I said. Also - you keep talking about "shoot to kill", but the numbers don't add up. 27 deaths in 2013 in the West Bank is far from "Shoot to kill". I was there, I served there, shoot to kill?! Can you please try to look into things and not just repeating unfounded mantras? Comparing Israel to the Nazis is preposterous. Or maybe not? Give me a couple of minutes, I'll try to locate the killing pits with the bodies. Maybe I'll find some to support your claim.

I accept, but as I said - there is no occupation in Gaza. They have an Israeli-Free borderline with Egypt which is usually closed due to the hatred between the secular regime in Egypt and the Islamic lunatics of Hammas. I'm no supporter of Hammas and their refusal to recognise Israel's right to exist is clearly a problem, but from your side of the fence it's not an existential one. In my view it's also impossible to de-link and treat the situations in Gaza and the West Bank as two separate issues. Right or wrong this is now the territory of Arab Muslims with the same natural rights to the land as the longest established Jews. By ending the occupation Israel would remove the last shred of legitimacy Hammas and others can claim for their campaign against you. Further aggressive action by them could then be met with overwhelming force and the international community couldn't say a damn thing about it. The problem, as you seem to accept, is the occupation itself which is nothing more than a dressed up land grab and the stripping of natural rights from decent ordinary people. As long as that situation continues it will generate hate and resentment that makes perpetual conflict inevitable. Take it from people with some experience that stealing other peoples countries doesn't end well. Israelis are highly civilised people, you know this. I fully agree with the general idea. Benjamin Netanyahu is hardly mt favorite prime minister and I did not vote for him of for any of the other parties currently in the coalition. I reject any idea of annexation or continuous control over the Palestinians. From my point of view, leave human rights aside for a moment, its in Israel best interest to draw a borderline and let them live their lives. This is how I see things. Still, and from your responses I know you are a bit familiar with what's going on here - the situation is much more complicated than this, as the Palestinians themselves are finding all sorts for excuses for not making any progress in the peace process. They keep insisting on a partial right of return and so on. In addition, the gap between Hammas and Fatah is huge. That is why there are no real relationship between the West Bank and Gaza. Both act as independent entities and as it seems, the Fatah is quite pleased to see Hammas on its knees. In order for Israel to negotiate with one representing body - the Palestinians should unite around such a body. As long as this does not happen - what can Israel do? Force the Hammas to recognize our right to exist? There is no "complete good" vs. "complete evil" here. There is no "if only we'll give them what they want peace will come". I'm sorry but the well documented illegal settlement programme in the West Bank, contrary to all international law, cannot be reasonably described as anything but annexation. I am aware of the differences between Fatah and Hammas, and the purge of the former carried out by the latter in Gaza some years ago. But times they are a changing and Hammas is shit out of friends. The regime in Egypt will throw them to the wolves as long as the west overlooks the reimposition of military rule; the supply routes through Sudan are thoroughly compromised - not least by direct IDF intervention when necessary; the Jordanians are firmly onside and watching their own backs right now; Assad is up to his neck in trouble and the Iranians have their near abroad to worry about in Iraq as Jihadistan gets established by ISIS. The point is that regional borders are already changing and two of your notional enemies in Iraq and Syria are gone and not coming back. New threats will emerge for sure, but this is a golden opportunity to go for a final settlement by withdrawing completely from the occupied West Bank. As part of that process I reckon we could get you into NATO to guarantee the '67 borders and thus the State of Israel. Forever. The old thinking doesn't reflect the new reality that is being shaped right now. It would be a tragedy to let that opportunity pass, IMHO. EDIT: just realised the first part of my post was arguing a point you'd already conceded. Apologies and withdrawn. First - there are fears here regarding our Eastern border due to the huge progress made by ISIS. One of the main reasons for Israel to keep hold on the Jordanian border is to block any option for an open corridor from Iran and Iraq to the center of Israel. If ISIS will turn their attention towards Jordan (and this is a thing the Jordanians fear as well) - you can never expect how things will go on. So I agree - there is no immediate threat from any of our neighbors in terms of Army vs. Army. Still, groups such as ISIS or those Muslim loonies in Syria are not operating so far away and as soon as they'll end their dealing with their Muslim counterparts, they will most probably turn their attention towards Israel. This is not something you can consider as far fetched. I am not the one to automatically approve everything the Israeli government does. My past comments will back this claim up (not including the pics I've uploaded to the NSFW thread...) - but it is too often when I find it hard, as an Israeli, to try and see where the Palestinian leadership wish to take this. They hold the negotiations with a "you should give us everything we want or else we take nothing" approach which isn't working too well for them. I don't expect a peace loving neighbor who will immediately ignore all past occurrences (and this works for the Israelis as well) - but I do hope the Palestinians will at least try to cope with some of the issues Israel brought up. For instance - why the hell are they oppose to officially recognize Israel as a Jewish state? What's in it for them? Such thing makes you wonder - maybe they see the Palestinian state as a step towards the 1948 lines? I don't say that's why they want - I say that I, as an Israeli, find it hard to come up with a different option for this. First the ISIS thing: they are a relatively small bunch of psychos who are the tip of a much deeper Sunni spear that represents a tribal rising against the Shia authorities in Baghdad and Damascus. While ISIS may have broader territorial ambitions ( and fantasise about Jerusalem) we both know they've got more chance of seeing Bob Marley live in concert next Friday. The Shia and Sunni are going to fight it out in Iraq and the Levant until they are exhausted and do not pose an existential threat to Israel, or to Jordan for that matter. Yes AQ "whatever" may infiltrate a free West Bank in small numbers but with massive international support to Fatah they could deal with that. The second point is why get so hung up on what the Palestinian leadership want or say? If Israel dealt with its Zionist constituency and just said "we're leaving the West Bank, that's it", what could the Zionists, Palestinians or anyone else do about it? You don't need anyone else's consent, it's within the power of Israel alone to make that decision. The reality, IMO, is that the Israeli State doesn't want to leave the West Bank and will, by a thousand cuts, make an future Palestinian State non-viable by salami slicing it to pieces. After all what's a few decades when the Jewish people have waited so long for what is 'rightfully theirs'? ISIS are not too big, but things are going crazy here at the moment, with Syria and Iraq falling apart, while Iran continue to support the Hizbulla. For the second issue. Your last sentence is inaccurate, as there are different approaches within Israel. Benjamin Netanyahu and Shimon Peres are not the same. Regarding the "let's leave the west bank and that's that" - I wrote earlier. Leave the religious thing aside - the same argument rises whenever this issue comes into discussion - we've tried it in Gaza and look where that brought us. I'm on another forum, discussing this topic and the Israeli on that site seems to be very aggressive in his defence of Israeli aggression. Do they all read of a script or something? I have no ideas what guidelines they were given...

You should read the Charter of the Hammas before bringing up such claims.

Fine, I read in to it something that wasn't there. I'm glad that you appear to have put me straight in that Israel will do the precise amount of damage to whomever and do as much as it thinks it can get away with (in this specific case Gaza but the attitude is the same with respects to the West Bank) in order to maximize the chances of achieving what it views are its interests. The only brake, then, on Israel killing people in Gaza, building a huge sodding wall, building further illegal settlements, and so on would appear to be its practical ability or willingness to deal with the international response. The basic interest of Israel is to defend its citizens. Suicide bombings, if you remember, were a usual incident here. Every week or so someone went on a bus or into a restaurant and blew himself up, alongside many civilians.The wall in the west bank reduced suicide bombings to zero. I think that is quite alright. Israel's interests are not the destruction of Gaza or the Palestinian Authority. I do think there is a difference between Gaza and the West Bank when it comes to Israel's interests. There is an internal dispute regarding the settlements. I, as I wrote to AWOL, oppose the settlements in the west bank. But the internal dispute vanishes when it comes to Gaza as from most Israelis point of view - There is not much more we can "give" Gaza to try and bring the peace and quiet. You can not even blame Israel for the "siege" as there is a border with Egypt. While it seems that final goal of Abu Mazen in the west bank is to reach an agreement, the goal of Hammas is to harass Israel, no matter what are the costs. Even now, after Israel acceptance of the truce - they keep firing, hoping for Israel to retaliate. And that is a problem because...?

There are more ways to 'obliterate' somewhere than to lay waste to it overnight. I don't think that it is a serious option to wipe out Gaza in one fell swoop so the use of this kind of comment as an indicator that somehow Israel is being merciful in its actions or holding back through a duty of care to civilians in Gaza is pretty much the nonsense mainstay of one line of the Israeli PR machine (it doesn't really stand well with the 'they lost' and the 'you hit the boy with the sub machine gun and you are surprised when he guns down your family' attitude). Never talked about mercy. I talked about interests. Israel has no claims in Gaza. Even the religious-historic claim for "Grand Judea" and Israel has nothing to achieve by killing civilians or conquering Gaza. Since the last operation (November 2002) the Hammas did not attack Israel. Israel, in return, did not attack Hammas. And what can one do - wars are "won". GBR won WWII, USA won their war with Spain. Russia won its war with Georgia. That's war. Israel did not start the 1948 war.

BTW - Blood thirsty Israel accepted the truce, as offered by the Egyptians. Despite running no offensive actions since this morning - the Hammas keeps "defending its citizens" by launching rockets towards Israeli cities.

I accept, but as I said - there is no occupation in Gaza. They have an Israeli-Free borderline with Egypt which is usually closed due to the hatred between the secular regime in Egypt and the Islamic lunatics of Hammas. I'm no supporter of Hammas and their refusal to recognise Israel's right to exist is clearly a problem, but from your side of the fence it's not an existential one. In my view it's also impossible to de-link and treat the situations in Gaza and the West Bank as two separate issues. Right or wrong this is now the territory of Arab Muslims with the same natural rights to the land as the longest established Jews. By ending the occupation Israel would remove the last shred of legitimacy Hammas and others can claim for their campaign against you. Further aggressive action by them could then be met with overwhelming force and the international community couldn't say a damn thing about it. The problem, as you seem to accept, is the occupation itself which is nothing more than a dressed up land grab and the stripping of natural rights from decent ordinary people. As long as that situation continues it will generate hate and resentment that makes perpetual conflict inevitable. Take it from people with some experience that stealing other peoples countries doesn't end well. Israelis are highly civilised people, you know this. I fully agree with the general idea. Benjamin Netanyahu is hardly mt favorite prime minister and I did not vote for him of for any of the other parties currently in the coalition. I reject any idea of annexation or continuous control over the Palestinians. From my point of view, leave human rights aside for a moment, its in Israel best interest to draw a borderline and let them live their lives. This is how I see things. Still, and from your responses I know you are a bit familiar with what's going on here - the situation is much more complicated than this, as the Palestinians themselves are finding all sorts for excuses for not making any progress in the peace process. They keep insisting on a partial right of return and so on. In addition, the gap between Hammas and Fatah is huge. That is why there are no real relationship between the West Bank and Gaza. Both act as independent entities and as it seems, the Fatah is quite pleased to see Hammas on its knees. In order for Israel to negotiate with one representing body - the Palestinians should unite around such a body. As long as this does not happen - what can Israel do? Force the Hammas to recognize our right to exist? There is no "complete good" vs. "complete evil" here. There is no "if only we'll give them what they want peace will come". I'm sorry but the well documented illegal settlement programme in the West Bank, contrary to all international law, cannot be reasonably described as anything but annexation. I am aware of the differences between Fatah and Hammas, and the purge of the former carried out by the latter in Gaza some years ago. But times they are a changing and Hammas is shit out of friends. The regime in Egypt will throw them to the wolves as long as the west overlooks the reimposition of military rule; the supply routes through Sudan are thoroughly compromised - not least by direct IDF intervention when necessary; the Jordanians are firmly onside and watching their own backs right now; Assad is up to his neck in trouble and the Iranians have their near abroad to worry about in Iraq as Jihadistan gets established by ISIS. The point is that regional borders are already changing and two of your notional enemies in Iraq and Syria are gone and not coming back. New threats will emerge for sure, but this is a golden opportunity to go for a final settlement by withdrawing completely from the occupied West Bank. As part of that process I reckon we could get you into NATO to guarantee the '67 borders and thus the State of Israel. Forever. The old thinking doesn't reflect the new reality that is being shaped right now. It would be a tragedy to let that opportunity pass, IMHO. EDIT: just realised the first part of my post was arguing a point you'd already conceded. Apologies and withdrawn. First - there are fears here regarding our Eastern border due to the huge progress made by ISIS. One of the main reasons for Israel to keep hold on the Jordanian border is to block any option for an open corridor from Iran and Iraq to the center of Israel. If ISIS will turn their attention towards Jordan (and this is a thing the Jordanians fear as well) - you can never expect how things will go on. So I agree - there is no immediate threat from any of our neighbors in terms of Army vs. Army. Still, groups such as ISIS or those Muslim loonies in Syria are not operating so far away and as soon as they'll end their dealing with their Muslim counterparts, they will most probably turn their attention towards Israel. This is not something you can consider as far fetched. I am not the one to automatically approve everything the Israeli government does. My past comments will back this claim up (not including the pics I've uploaded to the NSFW thread...) - but it is too often when I find it hard, as an Israeli, to try and see where the Palestinian leadership wish to take this. They hold the negotiations with a "you should give us everything we want or else we take nothing" approach which isn't working too well for them. I don't expect a peace loving neighbor who will immediately ignore all past occurrences (and this works for the Israelis as well) - but I do hope the Palestinians will at least try to cope with some of the issues Israel brought up. For instance - why the hell are they oppose to officially recognize Israel as a Jewish state? What's in it for them? Such thing makes you wonder - maybe they see the Palestinian state as a step towards the 1948 lines? I don't say that's why they want - I say that I, as an Israeli, find it hard to come up with a different option for this.

There are more ways to 'obliterate' somewhere than to lay waste to it overnight. I don't think that it is a serious option to wipe out Gaza in one fell swoop so the use of this kind of comment as an indicator that somehow Israel is being merciful in its actions or holding back through a duty of care to civilians in Gaza is pretty much the nonsense mainstay of one line of the Israeli PR machine (it doesn't really stand well with the 'they lost' and the 'you hit the boy with the sub machine gun and you are surprised when he guns down your family' attitude). And for some strange reason, you've skipped the 1947 UN Partition Map... Isn't it the second map shown? The one headed 'UN Partition plan 1947'? Yes... I was referring to the textual part. There was no 'textual part' of the post. As far as I can see, the poster posted the picture of those four maps and that was it - thereafter Trent posted something about a water park. OK... I sometime forget this is not done in Hebrew so I miss out on things or leave my comments a bit opaque... I was referring to the lack of any textual. Any person looking at these maps without any textual addition will most probably come to the wrong conclusion, or at least possess a lack of knowledge.

They lost the war. Yes - the state of Israel exists only because they lost the war. If they'd won - I wouldn't be here right now. Once again - I wish to remind you, there Palestinians weren't an independent army at the time. The neighboring countries waged war and their plan was to annex the land for their own purposes. They did just that in the countries they eventually occupied (West Bank, for instance). Israel won the war against its neighbors. The Arabs who stayed put are currently citizens of the Israeli state, enjoying this democracy, being a part of the parliament, enjoying all the rights the non-Muslim citizens do.

Genocide?! Our beloved neighbors in Syria and Iraq give a better example of what genocide is. According to BeTzelem - a left wing organization - 36 Palestinians were killed by Israeli armed forces throughout 2013. This was, according to BeTzelem, a 5 year high!! Now, for the sake of argument, let's say all 36 deaths were unjustified - this is genocide?! Are these numbers represent a methodical killing of the people? The London bombings toll was (or should it be "were"?) double than that.

I accept, but as I said - there is no occupation in Gaza. They have an Israeli-Free borderline with Egypt which is usually closed due to the hatred between the secular regime in Egypt and the Islamic lunatics of Hammas. I'm no supporter of Hammas and their refusal to recognise Israel's right to exist is clearly a problem, but from your side of the fence it's not an existential one. In my view it's also impossible to de-link and treat the situations in Gaza and the West Bank as two separate issues. Right or wrong this is now the territory of Arab Muslims with the same natural rights to the land as the longest established Jews. By ending the occupation Israel would remove the last shred of legitimacy Hammas and others can claim for their campaign against you. Further aggressive action by them could then be met with overwhelming force and the international community couldn't say a damn thing about it. The problem, as you seem to accept, is the occupation itself which is nothing more than a dressed up land grab and the stripping of natural rights from decent ordinary people. As long as that situation continues it will generate hate and resentment that makes perpetual conflict inevitable. Take it from people with some experience that stealing other peoples countries doesn't end well. Israelis are highly civilised people, you know this. I fully agree with the general idea. Benjamin Netanyahu is hardly mt favorite prime minister and I did not vote for him of for any of the other parties currently in the coalition. I reject any idea of annexation or continuous control over the Palestinians. From my point of view, leave human rights aside for a moment, its in Israel best interest to draw a borderline and let them live their lives. This is how I see things. Still, and from your responses I know you are a bit familiar with what's going on here - the situation is much more complicated than this, as the Palestinians themselves are finding all sorts for excuses for not making any progress in the peace process. They keep insisting on a partial right of return and so on. In addition, the gap between Hammas and Fatah is huge. That is why there are no real relationship between the West Bank and Gaza. Both act as independent entities and as it seems, the Fatah is quite pleased to see Hammas on its knees. In order for Israel to negotiate with one representing body - the Palestinians should unite around such a body. As long as this does not happen - what can Israel do? Force the Hammas to recognize our right to exist? There is no "complete good" vs. "complete evil" here. There is no "if only we'll give them what they want peace will come".

And for some strange reason, you've skipped the 1947 UN Partition Map... Isn't it the second map shown? The one headed 'UN Partition plan 1947'? Yes... I was referring to the textual part. Quite easy to bring up maps such as these and say - look how the Palestinians were deprived of their state by the Jews, even though it is far from the truth. All the Arabs and Palestinians had to do it to say "Yes" to the UN partition plan and that was it. The chose to rally the troops - Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon and even some Muslim soldiers from Bosnia, all enjoying the moral support of Haj Amin el Husseini, Hitler's ally. They lost,

Well, this could work if the Jewish people weren't harassed and assault due to their religion. I can go back to the Ukarina in the 16th century and, obviously, to the holocaust, but if you'd like to look at modern times, it was only a couple of days ago, a pro-Palestinian demonstration in France turned against Jews who were at the synagogue at the time. Not Israelis - just Jews of French nationality. Didn't bother the Pro-Palestines. I can show you some youtube clips of the Palestinian leaders crying against the Jews (and not only against Israelis). You can chekck http://www.palwatch.org/ There's a lot of stuff over there. And BTW - Hasbara? Getting paid for it? Do you really think the Israeli government will send a representative to the forum of Aston Villa?! Sorry. We can disagree on practically everything, but there is a common thing for the two of us - we support the same crappy team in the Premier League. I only do it from 2000 miles away.