Glarmorgan

Many of your claims for the origin of this conflict are inaccurate, at best. First and foremost - at 1947, in the time of the UN partition plan - there was not Palestinian state. In a matter of fact - there never was a Palestinian state, throughout history. Never ever. Second - at that time, there was a founded Jewish settlement in this region. Actual numbers talk of 600,000 Jews here in 1948, with 1,200,000 Arabs to a total of, give or take 2 Million people in this relatively barren land. One must also think that the peaceful Arabs just had a problem with the local Jewish population. This, of course, is not true as the Arab leader (the "Mufti") was a close ally of one - Adolf Hitler, and explicitly asked him for some assistance to deal with that problem he was so good with. You know - exterminating Jews. Lucky for the ones here, Hitler was occupied elsewhere. You can look up the Arab uprising of 1929 to learn more of the peaceful Arabs and their treatment of their Jewish neighbors. According to what the UN committee saw, a partition of the land was declared. Just as this conflict in Gaza - while the Jews accepted the partition plan, the Arabs refused to and waged war. These are facts. Not interpretations of a vague situation. The Arabs, lucky for us, lost, and Israel ceased more land. Now, I've read a lot of this issue - it was very common back days for the Arabs to flee their homes to the neighboring area in case of emergency, and this is exactly what many of them did. The difference was that on this occasion - Israel was declared and so - they had nowhere to return to and thus - remained at Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and so on. This created at least a part of the refugee problem, mainly because all these stated refused to give them citizenship, cementing their refugee status for all time. Gaza, for a matter of fact, was not to be a part of the Jewish state in 1948. It was to be a part of the newly Arab state. in the 1948 Gaza was conquered by Egyptian forces who annexed it and so it became a part of Egypt till 1967, the 6 days war. Israel kicked no one out of Gaza as it was not under Israeli control. When Israel did conquer it, no deportations took place. Not from Gaza nor the West Bank. In general - please stop with "kicked their out of their homes" mantra. This is war. The war was not declared by Israel and, if you wish to look into it, there was a regional plan of both Jordan and Egypt to take control of the future "Arab country" (after all what prevented them from giving independence to Gaza and the West Bank? They could actually create the Palestinian state - but decided not to. Strange, isn't it?). All in all - if one declares war and loses - he cannot stand back and say - OK, stop everything - let's rewind as nothing has happened. And please remember that during that time (3 years after the end of WWII) - mass move of population was all too common. It was common in Europe and it was common in the middle east. Also - it is very easy to talk about the Palestinian refugee situation from afar. Have you looked into the Jewish refugee problem? And I am not talking of the European Jews, but the Middle Eastern. Yep, it seems that the creation of Israel made some Arabs in Iraq, Syria and Egypt quite angry so they directed their anger at the local Jews - forcing them to flee their homes, leave all their assets behind. Were you aware of that? Probably not and even if you have - you don't hear of the "Jewish refugee problem", because the Jews, unlike the Palestinians, wanted to solve their situation thus settled elsewhere - Israel, US, Canada, etc. The Palestinian refugees, on the other hand, are not allowed to set fixed houses in the neighboring countries (mainly Syria) so they won't think of settling over there. Eventually - please refer to Khartoum Resolution of 1967. This will help you understand the current state of affair in this region during that time. The most famous part of this resolution was "The Three No's: No to peace with Israel, No recognition of Israel, no negotiating with Israel" and this applied for the entire Arab league. This might help you realize why Israel had and has to hold a very strong army - this is not a peaceful neighborhood. Wasn't in 1967 and isn't in 2014.. And even if you do think Israel don't have the right to exist - it does and lucky for me and my family - we are strong enough not to let anyone change this status. So the Palestinians have to come to a decision - do they continue fighting the 1948 war or do they think of the present? Hamas is fighting the 1948 war - they wish to exterminate Israel, refuse recognizing it. Abu Mazen made some important steps towards Israel. I have to give him that, but at the time being, it does not seem that either him or Netanyahu are capable of making and passing the big decisions. Netanyahu will find it practically impossible to secede parts of the West Bank, while Abu Mazen will not recognize Israel as a Jewish state and will not forfeit the right of return - which practically means the end of the Jewish state.

LOL You can blame "Defender of The Crown" for making me pick this nickname...

This claim is unfair due to several reasons: 1. Access from Gaza to Israel was allowed as long as The Palestinian Authority was in control of Gaza. As soon as Hamas took over - Israel closed the border. 2. I wish to remind you that Hamas is an entity calling for the extinction of Israel. You don't really expect Israel to have an open border with a sheer enemy, right? 3. Gaza have a shared border with Egypt. Why would Israel allow the Gazans in, when they elect a Hamas for leadership, while Egypt keep their border closed? You should also remember that during this period of time, Egypt was controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood and not a secular regime such as Mubarak's or A Sisi. Still, during this time - the border remained closed. What prevented the Muslim Brotherhood to open the border and help their poor brothers from Gaza? It might have something to do with the refugees camp all around the middle east - they don't really want to solve the Palestinian problem. They want to use it as a tool against Israel. 4. Dozens of trucks enter Gaza strip each day with supplies, entering through Kerem Shalom passage in Israel. It might not be anything that the population want - but its more than any other country send them.... 5. Within the tunnels, built to harm Israelis, sacks of Israeli manufactured cement were found. They used the supplies Israel sent to build tunnels for... hurting Israel. 6. A ship was apprehended some time back, carrying loads of long range missiles and ammunition sent from Iran to Hamas. I am sure some managed to sneak in without the Israeli navy noticing it. And it surprises you Israel does not want shipments to get to Gaza? Some might think Israel is a demon which all its aim it too make life bad for the Palestinians. As if I get up in the morning and think of how to deprive children of their milk supplements just because they live in Rafah. This is preposterous! You keep talking about the dire situation of the population of Gaza and you are 100% right, but instead of pointing the finger at Israel, point it to the Hamas. Just think - the economy of the Palestinians in the West Bank is dependent on the Israeli market. Still, workers are allowed to come to work in Israel and Israeli - Arabs can visit the West Bank quite freely, purchasing goods. How can you explain the difference between Gaza and the West Bank? Israel "hates" only the ones in Gaza?

We know here that the propaganda can never be won when dealing with an enemy who uses women and children as human shields. Hamas knows this is the only battlefield they can beat Israel in. I do not represent Israel, but I can tell you that the common thinking here is that Hamas is not an organization we can deal with. This is why I don't think that nothing other than a long term truce can be achieved, as long as Hamas controls Gaza. I will tell you what I really hope - I hope that the finds and materials getting in Gaza will not be directed to tunnels or bomb shelters. I hope it will be directed to reconstruct the destroyed houses, to create a working sewage system and so on and so forth. Hamas invested a fortune in the tunnels and rockets and other means of destruction, while the population in Gaza can't find something to eat. If they'll stop paying attention to Israel and start investing in the welfare of their own people - things will be better for everyone.

I am quite positive there is an alternative, and I am sure the financial means will be directed towards achieving this target. As you suggested - the problem is not only to find out that a tunnel is being dug, but the solution should also be able to provide exact location and, if possible, destroy the tunnel itself.

Well, even if I'll ignore patriotism and so, being a Jew in Israel is not easy, but as I see things - being a Jew outside Israel is even worse. Look at the recent demonstrations in Europe, listen to when Arduan is saying. Even yesterday, Jewish kids in Sydney (!!!!) were abused. Look at history - we are not being treated all too well outside. Here I at least have the ability to defend myself and try to control my own destiny. I am not dependent on some leader who think of "the republic" or "the voters". If you wish, I can get all sentimental and remind you of how the allies chose not to bombard Auschwitz during WWII to at least hamper some of the Nazis deeds over there. Israel is here for a reason, you know

You're showing your aggression again.. Much like your leaders. Unlike calm Europe, and I am very sorry for this - the key for survival in the middle east is to have the strength and to show you are willing to use it when necessary. You can look at Iraq or Syria as the best examples - but the thing that kept Israel safe and sound since 1948 was the fear of its neighbors from the IDF. The Arab nations around us came to realize they cannot beat us when it comes to force. Some chose to path of peace (Egypt and Jordan), some just kept away (Iraq) and some invested in terror groups to attack us from Lebanon (Syria and Iran supporting Hizbulla). This is type of existence you fail to understand. I am not a militant. I am all for the creation of a Palestinian state, but at the same time I fully realize that if we'll show any signs of weakness - groups such as the Hamas or Hizbulla will be more than glad to drive us away. We can argue all day long whether Israel actions in Gaza were justified or not - but Hamas will probably think twice before launching any sort of attack against Israel, whether through rockets or tunnels. Just as Hizbulla are not trigger happy after the bombardment of Beirut 8 years ago. This is how things work here. Unfortunately.

Due to Israel position - military service is mandatory at the age of 18. Most Israelis (including Druze and Bedouin) are drafted for 3 years. Some, after 3 years, continue with their service (mostly officers). I, for instance, spent three years in Combat Engineering core during early 90's. Got ready mainly for a was with Syria, but spent some months in the West Bank as well.

Like your extremely strong next door neighbor who has the strength and the knowledge not only to use them offensively, but defensively as well, to protect his house from your puny retaliation attempts. Beside - according to your line of thought, you are playing God on daily basis by not killing everyone around you.

So there are tanks sat outside the exits of the tunnels? No... tanks are usually positioned in defensive stands around Gaza. As you must recall - I explicitly wrote that not all exit holes were known (Hamas managed to sneak a couple of squads through them during the last weeks) and all in all - even if the IDF was to go with your "tank next to exit hole" solution - this was not practical due to the human being stationed in this tank. Come on - give me some slack here. I am trying to hold this in English and even if I glitch every once in a while - try to overlook it and get the general idea instead. Beside - tank warfare cannot work like this. The entire combat perception of the tank forces if Israel is mainly built on movement and accuracy. Not on static defensive positions. What are the practical difficulties of just filling the exit holes with say expanding foam and concrete? Since these tunnels are very long,with a lot of junctions, even if we'll seal the exit hole - nothing can prevent them from going back a couple of yards, making a left or right turn and dig another exit hole. In addition - on several occasions, exit holes were revealed only after the explosion of the tunnel. Have you thought about killing all of them? That might work. That would be an easy solution, true. Somehow, despite such great suggestions, we choose not to do it.

So there are tanks sat outside the exits of the tunnels? No... tanks are usually positioned in defensive stands around Gaza. As you must recall - I explicitly wrote that not all exit holes were known (Hamas managed to sneak a couple of squads through them during the last weeks) and all in all - even if the IDF was to go with your "tank next to exit hole" solution - this was not practical due to the human being stationed in this tank. Come on - give me some slack here. I am trying to hold this in English and even if I glitch every once in a while - try to overlook it and get the general idea instead. Beside - tank warfare cannot work like this. The entire combat perception of the tank forces if Israel is mainly built on movement and accuracy. Not on static defensive positions. What are the practical difficulties of just filling the exit holes with say expanding foam and concrete? Since these tunnels are very long,with a lot of junctions, even if we'll seal the exit hole - nothing can prevent them from going back a couple of yards, making a left or right turn and dig another exit hole. In addition - on several occasions, exit holes were revealed only after the explosion of the tunnel.

So there are tanks sat outside the exits of the tunnels? No... tanks are usually positioned in defensive stands around Gaza. As you must recall - I explicitly wrote that not all exit holes were known (Hamas managed to sneak a couple of squads through them during the last weeks) and all in all - even if the IDF was to go with your "tank next to exit hole" solution - this was not practical due to the human being stationed in this tank. Come on - give me some slack here. I am trying to hold this in English and even if I glitch every once in a while - try to overlook it and get the general idea instead. Beside - tank warfare cannot work like this. The entire combat perception of the tank forces if Israel is mainly built on movement and accuracy. Not on static defensive positions.

1. The tunnels dug from Gaza to Israel were not entirely known to Israel. At the beginning of the operation, it was estimated there are 15-20 tunnels. Then the forces discovered more, to the total of 32 tunnels. 2. Even if Israel knew of all the tunnels, it is not practical to sit next to each exit hole waiting for someone to get out. Leave the "who is right" debate aside for a second - if you know there is an imminent threat, you can't just wait for it to happen and deal with it only then. Beside - the tanks guarding the exit holes are manned by human beings. Human beings tend to lose focus, make mistakes and so on. I remind you of the Shalit incident - he was in a tank, but 100% of the tank crew decisions were wrong. They fell asleep. When heard gunfire - the two jumped out of the tank and got shot. Shalit came out of the tank unarmed and so on. 3. At the end, and unlike what PeterMS might think, there are civilians in Israel. No just soldiers. These civilians find it hard to run normal lives when they know of exit holes 2-5 km from their homes, when it is clear these tunnels were dug for terror purposes. This is why the tunnels had to be dealt with. 4. There is a huge difference between the tunnels in Sinai and the ones in Israel. As the ones in Sinai were dug for financial issues - they were not hidden, most were dug with the full agreement of the previous Egyptian regime (both Mubarak and Mursi) and the traffic to these holes were in the open. The tunnels to Israel were different and due to the fact they were planned to different purpose - they were planned differently, with a lot of intersection, a lot of exit holes in Gaza (to allow entrance from different locations and so on). There is a complete underground city which had to be dealt thoroughly. 5. Despite the Israeli army efforts - there is still no solution to prevent the Hamas from digging tunnels. All sorts of solutions were brought up, from digging a deep ditch to flood the area with sea water. In the end - nothing happened and the defensive actions were focused on monitoring the region, trying to locate movement. One of the reasons for this was the lack of understanding of how huge this project was. Most of the funds were directed towards the Iron Dome and the rest of the anti-rocket weapons. I guess that funds to finance this project will be made available soon, hopefully preventing these terror tunnels in the future. 6. just saw this in the NY times website - it seems a booklet was found in Gaza, explaining the importance of civilian casualties to the cause of Hamas. Don't know if that's true - but here's a link: http://nypost.com/2014/08/05/hamas-manual-details-civilian-death-plan-israel/

AJ, I am with you Everyone here keeps analyzing the situation through the nice, liberal, progressive European eyes. Let's just give the Palestinians what they want - and peace shall come. The dichotomous division between the "Good" Palestinians and the "Bad" Israelis. This, quite frankly, ceased to amazed me as it is very easy to talk from afar. Sitting in Birmingham, London or Hartlepool, thinking you know everything there is to know and the key for solving this puzzle is in your hands. Unfortunately, the Hamas thinks otherwise. Hamas know they cannot win this from the military aspects. They know Israel will win any confrontation. Still, they can win when it comes to propaganda and "Human rights" and "world opinion". Their way to win is to show as many civilian casualties as possible - and browsing through recent posts here shows how right they are in their assumption. 1. As AJ brought up - not one here came up with a solution to deal with Hamas's strategy of using civilians as human shields. The "Command and Conquer" talks about Israel's abilitiy to hit a single target within a packed building is bollocks. If the way is to send 40 snipers and losing 25 of them just to avoid civilian casualties - this solution is bollocks. Israel asked civilians to draw back. Hamas prohibited this, declaring anyone leaving his house - will lose it. So, here's a situation - a rocket is launched from within a populated area. What should the IDF do? Leave it be? 2. Talking of Hamas as a democracy... it was published that 20 Gazans went to demonstrate against Hamas yesterday (or was it two days ago?). The result was simple and brutal - public execution, on the spot. 3. Israel and Hamas agreed a 72 hours ceasefire of 8:00 this morning. Hamas used this ceasefire as a diversion and, as it seems, kidnapped and Israeli soldier during a surgical attack (still unsure whether dead or alive). I wish to emphasis - the UN and US requested these 72 hours for humanitarian purposes, which will allow the Gazans to recover a bit and for the delegations of both sides to try and achieve a long-term ceasefire in Egypt. The Hamas through that to the wind, kidnapping a soldier which, as they knew, will bring in a devastating response from the IDF. Wasn't it in Hamas' best interest to stop the "massacre of innocent civilians"? So how come they picked this specific act of aggression? 4. The ones talking about "only if Israel negotiate with PLO and Arafat" I wish again to remind that Ehud Barak, Israeli prime minister, offered Arafat a Palestinian state on 96% of the occupies territories. Arafat refused and initiated the second Intifada. 5. For whom it may concern - the PLO inception was in 1964. Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza in 1967. 6. So, Israel invaded Gaza. Why? For kicks? To collect blood for Matzas?

I couldn't find the video but there is an article in yesterday's Jerusalem Post which outlines his opinion on Hamas's 'win-win' strategy of using human shields. He expects other terrorist organisations to copy it as it has proven so affective. Hmm... you're right - no video clip. Well, if you'll translate the page with Google translate - it hold a transcript of most of his sayings.

Really?! The best you can find is a video clip from an extreme-left wing website? With a video clip which is completely biased? A grown up man asks kids about who would they want to kill?! If someone asked any of my 3 kids such questions he would be punched in the face by yours truly. This is unbelievable. You raise a claim and try to back it up with nonsense evidence, coming from a completely subjective source. Why didn't he ask the kids whether they prefer war over peace? One girl said she killed the Arabs attacking her - why didn't he ask the reason for this nightmare? Why would she think such thing? She could pick "Germans" that come after her. Or Greeks. But she did not - why didn't he ask? What was he after? I work with kids. I know kids - a grown up can lead them to any place he wants. This reflects what, exactly? And by all means - I do not justify any of these answers. Their parents should be ashamed and the education system in Israel should do the utmost to prevent such line of thoughts. Ahh... but I guess that your next claim will be that such thought are taught at Israeli schools, by the demonic Israeli teachers. Well, dozens of the schools in Israel are 100% Arab, so this can't happen there. Also, many are a mixture of Arabs and Jews (in cities such as Ramla, Lod, Jaff, Akre), so this most probably won't take place there as well. Hmm... this is weird... well, I guess all comes from the horrible conditions of the local Arab population, leaving next to Jewish people who want them dead... But hang on, the Arabs are citizens with full rights here, enjoying the Israeli democracy. How many Arabs across the middle east can say that? Enjoying a full religious freedom, whether Muslim or Christian. Can the Palestinians say the same? Of course not. We even had and Arab minister a couple of years ago. So how does this sit with your unfounded claims? I can go on, if you'd like. More than 20% of Arab youth volunteer to serve public systems in Israel e.g. - volunt. Unlike the Jews, the Arabs do not have to enlist and they can start working or studying at the age of 18. But more than 20% choose to spend 1-2-3 years for this wretched Jewish country they reside is, and the rates are on the rise. How can all this be true? Have you ever looked into this, or do you prefer to base your arguments on 5 minutes clips from a biased website, in the hope that most people here, who are far away from this subject, take your words as if they are the living truth? And still, you choose what is most convenient to paint the Israelis as demons. Have you looked into the official broadcasts of the Palestinian Authority lately? Want to see a couple of programs for the kids with a nice Micky Mouse teaching them how great it is to kill not only the Zionists, but all Jews. Maybe it was an anti-discrimination class. Go figure. This is an official broadcast, equivalent to the BBC, but hey - that's not important - let's all watch a 5 minute clip from an extreme left website and tell everyone that's "Real life in Israel". You're right, children can be led and TV programmers can make things appear as they want them to. The manipulation of media is a weapon of tyranny and as you rightly suggest, it's ridiculous to assume there's any truth in the idea that children are taught to want to kill; idiotic, foolish, preposterous and insane. And yet it would appear that you believe it of the other side without question. What does that tell you? I don't see the Palestinian kids as any sort of a problem. Kids are kids are kids, regardless of their nationality. They, as you said - can be easily manipulated. The problem are the grownups, who use the official broadcasting network as a platform to pass these horrendous ideas to the kids.Therefore, my comparison is not between the Palestinian kids and the Israeli ones. I compare the adult behavior - the fact that the hatred towards Israelis and Jews comes down through official channels.

This is a short interview held with one Colonel Richard Kemp of the British army of the Gaza situation. 5 minute interview. This clip auto plays, but I managed to play it only on Internet Explorer (the horror!!!). http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/2689/2769050

In order for Israel to deal with ISIS - Jordan has to be conquered by ISIS first. I assume that if Jordan will be attacked, US will act and I will not be too surprised if a couple of Israeli airplanes will aid the cause. Lets hope it happens soon eh? Wouldn't want you guys to run out of ammo or anything. This really doesn't matter. Even if we'll fight ISIS you'll still complain about the "disproportionate response".

In order for Israel to deal with ISIS - Jordan has to be conquered by ISIS first. I assume that if Jordan will be attacked, US will act and I will not be too surprised if a couple of Israeli airplanes will aid the cause. No oil in Jordan so doubt the US will get involved True, but the US considers Jordan as an important ally. For the best of my knowledge, US holds several military installations in Jordan.

Really?! The best you can find is a video clip from an extreme-left wing website? With a video clip which is completely biased? A grown up man asks kids about who would they want to kill?! If someone asked any of my 3 kids such questions he would be punched in the face by yours truly. This is unbelievable. You raise a claim and try to back it up with nonsense evidence, coming from a completely subjective source. Why didn't he ask the kids whether they prefer war over peace? One girl said she killed the Arabs attacking her - why didn't he ask the reason for this nightmare? Why would she think such thing? She could pick "Germans" that come after her. Or Greeks. But she did not - why didn't he ask? What was he after? I work with kids. I know kids - a grown up can lead them to any place he wants. This reflects what, exactly? And by all means - I do not justify any of these answers. Their parents should be ashamed and the education system in Israel should do the utmost to prevent such line of thoughts. Ahh... but I guess that your next claim will be that such thought are taught at Israeli schools, by the demonic Israeli teachers. Well, dozens of the schools in Israel are 100% Arab, so this can't happen there. Also, many are a mixture of Arabs and Jews (in cities such as Ramla, Lod, Jaff, Akre), so this most probably won't take place there as well. Hmm... this is weird... well, I guess all comes from the horrible conditions of the local Arab population, leaving next to Jewish people who want them dead... But hang on, the Arabs are citizens with full rights here, enjoying the Israeli democracy. How many Arabs across the middle east can say that? Enjoying a full religious freedom, whether Muslim or Christian. Can the Palestinians say the same? Of course not. We even had and Arab minister a couple of years ago. So how does this sit with your unfounded claims? I can go on, if you'd like. More than 20% of Arab youth volunteer to serve public systems in Israel e.g. - volunt. Unlike the Jews, the Arabs do not have to enlist and they can start working or studying at the age of 18. But more than 20% choose to spend 1-2-3 years for this wretched Jewish country they reside is, and the rates are on the rise. How can all this be true? Have you ever looked into this, or do you prefer to base your arguments on 5 minutes clips from a biased website, in the hope that most people here, who are far away from this subject, take your words as if they are the living truth? And still, you choose what is most convenient to paint the Israelis as demons. Have you looked into the official broadcasts of the Palestinian Authority lately? Want to see a couple of programs for the kids with a nice Micky Mouse teaching them how great it is to kill not only the Zionists, but all Jews. Maybe it was an anti-discrimination class. Go figure. This is an official broadcast, equivalent to the BBC, but hey - that's not important - let's all watch a 5 minute clip from an extreme left website and tell everyone that's "Real life in Israel".

In order for Israel to deal with ISIS - Jordan has to be conquered by ISIS first. I assume that if Jordan will be attacked, US will act and I will not be too surprised if a couple of Israeli airplanes will aid the cause.

I was relieved to see that Chine, Russia and Saudi Arabia saw fit to inspect human rights in Israel. I am sure they will use their experience to show us how to do things right.

You won't struggle to disagree with that because you think you know what Israel people are thinking and wishing for (no disrespect, of course) . I could, somehow, agree with you with a problem in the West Bank, where many Israelis feel that giving up these territories is a mistake, leave their reasons aside for a moment. However, I completely disagree when you talk of Gaza. Israel has no interests in Gaza. No claims for land (Old Judea and so), no economic needs. Nothing. Practically nothing. That is why Israel had no real problem withdrawing from Gaza in 2006. Do you really think that Israeli parents dance on the rooftops when their children enter Gaza? Do you think that the people in Sderot, constantly being shelled, are happy with this situation? The current operation in Gaza was initiated with Hamas rockets and not the other way around. As long as Hamas kept his rockets at bay, for the past year and a half, Israel did not invade nor bombarded Gaza. Happy with rockets launched at us? This is exactly what I was talking about - this comes from a complete lack of knowledge. I am an Israeli - do I sound a warmonger to you? Happy with being targeted? Where do you bring such ideas regarding the Israeli people from? I will be the first to admit we are far from being saints, but we also not even close to being a demon as you see us.

Oh. You've got me completely wrong. I was not referring to you in my reply. It's just that I replied to your post, so everything was in it.... My bad, and I apologize for this lack of coherence. The Zionist remarks were brought up by a different user. I was a bit annoyed that not a single person here saw this as a disturbing or at least inappropriate comment.