drat01

Couple of things JPA 'Tard? Hmmmm interesting one - personal abuse aint nice especially as you probably wouldnt want to say it directly to me now would you? Secondly you said earlier which as I and others have said will always happen regardless of it being at Villa or not. By trying to use figures from previous seasons you've tried to say that extra fans who go to these matches are there just to see the opposition, which infers that they are not Villa fans - have I got this wrong? A few of us have said there are various reasons why gates fluctuate ranging from finance through to people picking and chosing matches etc. There is no one reason, there are various but bottom line is that the "floating fans" (thanks AL) are probably Villa fans - or am I wrong (again)

JPA I think you will probably find that for the majority of clubs their top gates would be against, Man Ure, CHelsea, Arsenal and any local rivals they have. Now why people chose to attend these matches as opposed to other matches is, as I have said before (please read the comments as its becoming quite boring trying to educate you), is down to various reasons. Strange how only BW has agreed with you

BW - Yes we can - honestly - the only issue I have is that JPA cant see that there may well be other factors than the draw of top teams especially when we have got 34000 plus for blackburn etc He's tried valiantly to explain his point but failed.

JPA - you mean they could have been ..... hang on .......... stop no it cant ...... yes they could have been Villa fans there wanting to see Villa? Hang on doesnt that go against what you are trying to prove? Ah well

yeah all those bloody pig farmers in the holte, it must have been difficult to park with thise tractors taking up Villa fans parking spots.

:-) see my edited post

38000 norwich 36500 Southampton being wrong isnt a crime you know by the way the gates for bburn and pompey were more like 34000 but hey ho dont let facts get in the way of trying to prove you are right, especially when you are not. There is more than one reason for fluctuating gates - just admit it

Note to self: when losing an argument you dont actually beleive then say you cant be bothered to discuss any more............ JPA come on you have a chance here to say 1.) if you agree with me that there may well be other reasons 2.) you were wrong

BW - why does everyone think Im getting at JPA. OK I have pointed out the errors in his assumptions as have others, but surprisingly enough he's not the only one of this board who has views. Hang on aren't you and he the same bloke anyway? :-)

I think ego's have been massaged

Not even an official DVD of the match. Which would sell a hell of a lot, if you ask me. True BW, case in point when that guy sold a DVD recently taken from an old ITV video stacks of people got copies (me included). I just think that the credibility for anything like this would increase if fans showed they are not just about protesting against Ellis but they are also very proud of their club and their achievements in the past

funny you should mention the hair styles (and no thats not a german referee) the guy I was talking to had the best mullet ever. But the point I have been trying to make is that there are vrious reasons for fluctuations in the crowd, not one as JPA was trying to make out Note: I think your 4000 was a fair comment BTW

Hopefully the top option is to celebrate our achievemnts in Rotterdam and not the certain poster who comes on here? I still think that its amazing that we do not have anything at the club that comemorates that day. By putting it towards that night, which was a fantastic night for the whole club, we as fans would be making a statement that we have great pride in the club.

and there is also the economics and the general apathy / unhapiness with the club IMO. i.e. as I said before there are lots of reasons not just one and it doesnt make you any less of a fan. I had more fun the last few days trying to convince some German guys why they need to back up their data than this, and beleive me thats no fun at all

BW - YES bloody hell mate I thought you would have seen that I have said its ONE of the reasons. Why does this have to be so frustrating.

JPA you are missing the point again. You seem to be saying that its the only reason the gates fluctuate, I said (quite rightly IMO) its one of many, or dont you agree with that

No JPA, infers all people, look at other posters reasoning, its one of the reasons. Life isnt black and white, there are lots a=of shade s of grey

People do pick and chose which matches they go to for numerous reasons - financial. for those old enough to have kids look at the nidding heads of agreement - being pissed off with the club. regardless of your views JPA a lot of people are fed up with the way there is a lack of investment etc at the club and chose the glamour matches to spend their money on - the opposition. some people would prefer to watch good players to average ones, but they may well be villa fans There is no black and white, yes and no answer to this one. Chosing where and when you chose to spend your money doesn't make you any less of a fan. Most people who attend Villa Park are Villa fans end of story. The reasons they go there and the motivations probably somewaht varies

I know we had this conversation before. The transfer window and the subsequent restriction on freedom to work is actually against European law. Its still in place because no club or player has yet had the balls or need to question it much in the same way as Bosman did. Once that happend then it will dissapear quicker than a OBE to Little Aston

But Barry and the others could have just said nothing. The fact that so many of the players and the management have said, somewhat puts them into the saame "camp" as us, IMO. So no he's not just saying the "right" things at all, they are all saying the things that genuinly need to happen. A simple question here, do you think we need extra funds for new players now, yes or no? A couple of times you have mentioned embarassement, is that the key to your objection to protest the fact that you think its silly. Other than a few blose fans I cant see many other fans joking about this, they joke about Ellis but not about the fans protesting. How can doing this be construed as not supporting the team? Are you saying that we shouldn't shout abuse when we think they haven't tried, or boo at H/T or like at Brammal Lane when they went off after a crap performance? I think your definition of supporting the team is somewhat in the minority, but if thats what you think then so be it. But do not ever say that we do not support the team because we dont fall in with your ideas, because that is so wrong

1982 - still you haven't answered the point about what the players or management said. why? I'm supporting them, why dont you? Also since when has any member of VFC or people just pissed off with ellis in general not supported the team during the match? Infact you could go the other way and say that people against their viewpoint were the ones that posted Gregory Out banners up on the Holte.

Concern and frustration Whip thats what. Something the apathetic seem to have lost

OK thats your view, albeit IMO totally wroing. So why not answer the point I made about the players and the management basically saying the same, or are they not part of the team? As said above its exactly that sort of viewpoint that keeps Villa in the stagnated state its in now. Lastly this is a forum for all Villa fans, and the fact that most chose to raise concerns (Note: by the way the fact that you are moaning sort of defeats your argument about "Moaners" somewhat) about so many of us not accepting Ellis's way of running the club shoudl show you thats its quite a popular thought.

and that is what exactly? You keep coming on here saying people who chose to complain about Ellis and are unhappy about the setup are not supporting the team. As I said previously surely of the players are calling for extra investment and the management are then we are supporting them. Surely the people who dont support their wishes for success are the people who aren't supporting the team.

whip interesting views. As a new boy to the site - welcome. So what you are saying is that we are average and that you are happy with that and all in the garden is rosy or have I missed your point? So far from what we have seen from your posts is that you dont give a stuff about people who genuinly want more success for Villa. OK so be it, each to their own I suppose Sorry mate I dont see it like that. As a fan for many years and most of them under the Ellis regime, its with sadness that I only saw true success during the time when he was away. Coincidence? I've seen opportunity after opportunity come and go and as each year goes by we see even more evidence of how Ellis is no longer fit as chairman, but apathetic views from so called fans mean that he remains in his ivory tower. As for 1981 1982 sorry again but to me who was there that night in Rotterdam, they were ALL great players. Dont forget if someone had their way that peice of history would never be mentioned at VP