Butterfingers

Really though who gives a shit? Pick me and I'd put a shift in but it doesn't mean I'd be any good. Is that what we've been reduced to as a fan base? That we should be pleased because we've got players who may be technically poor but will run round lots? I just bet that you were one of the biggest critics of the MON high earners as well weren't you? If nothing else, that should tell you that there is no guarantee money will bring success In case you haven't noticed, we've had 3 seasons on the trot where relegation was a very real prospect throughout most of the season. So I think its safe to surmise what we've been reduced to.

Most of the time he is not under pressure though, it is when there isn't enough movement from the outfield players. The fact that it it was the most successful passing combination last yr (for us) would indicate that our tactic more often than not is to hoof it up. Given they were both almost ever presents, the ratio will be high. Its probably the same for most if not all teams given the amount of times a keeper kicks over the half way line so I wouldn't put too much faith in that particular statistic. Regarding being under pressure, he always has angles either side of him & when not under pressure, that's where the ball goes. It is only when under pressure that it goes long. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. If you really think that Guzan goes long when its passed back to him and is not under pressure then not only shall we disagree but we clearly watch 2 different games. Success rate of a ball out to a defender 99%? Success rate of a hoof into the opponents half 20-30%

Most of the time he is not under pressure though, it is when there isn't enough movement from the outfield players. The fact that it it was the most successful passing combination last yr (for us) would indicate that our tactic more often than not is to hoof it up. Given they were both almost ever presents, the ratio will be high. Its probably the same for most if not all teams given the amount of times a keeper kicks over the half way line so I wouldn't put too much faith in that particular statistic. Regarding being under pressure, he always has angles either side of him & when not under pressure, that's where the ball goes. It is only when under pressure that it goes long.

Wouldn't disagree but if the manager is told that he can't offer those sort of sums to players then you can hardly blame him for not signing him can you? No I suppose not. Just another stark reminder of what we've been reduced to under Lerner. I'd go further. Its not just a stark reminder, it is the root of the problem. We tried to shave the wage bill too quickly last year, relied on kids & quite possibly got away with it due to Wigans FA Cup run. Newcastle were in a similar situation to us & backed their manager to buy his way out of trouble in January. PL was not given that luxuary. For me, instead of having mercinaries like Sissoko, we have hungry players like Sylla instead. They want to be here, are happy & honoured to be here & will put a shift in for the cause. That statement Sylla made sums the attitude up for me "even if I'm not playing,their joy is my joy & their pain is my pain". This is where we are. We still have challenges. We may not be going for top 4 but we still want to finish as high as possible. The team spirit seems excellent, the players don't seem phased by big star names & we're giving it a go. I really struggle to understand so much negativity.

Wouldn't disagree but if the manager is told that he can't offer those sort of sums to players then you can hardly blame him for not signing him can you? So we can't expect a player to trap a ball for less than 40 k per week. Some of the poor play, don't relate to money in my book....it's more than just that. The response was specifically to the insinuation that we missed out on Sissisko who was sold for around £2 million. The criticism in general seems to be that Lambert has bought poorly. The reality is that he's bought within his tight budget & the remit that Lerner has imposed. Do people on this board really think they could do a better job at improving on last season with a budget of £12 million & a wage structure that is weaker than many teams around us. I notice all of those quick enough to criticise are not as quick to say how they'd have spent the £12 million. The critics are probably the same people who thought we'd sign big names if Benteke was sold. The reality is that we wouldn't have because of our wage structure They are the same people who were slating Bacuna after his performance against Liverpool yet say nothing about the shift he put in on Saturday.

All keepers will go long when under pressure from a back pass. The insinuation from the original post was that our tactic is to hoof the ball up to Benteke. This has now progressed to Guzan going long from passbacks. What would you prefer Guzan attempting to nutmeg Saurez or Van Persie?

Wouldn't disagree but if the manager is told that he can't offer those sort of sums to players then you can hardly blame him for not signing him can you?

I think in fairness, Sissoko is on around £40K a week

Newcastle didn't spend a penny (They bought heavily in January mind)

Food for thought regarding not improving from last season. During that woeful run, we regularly fielded players like herd, bannan, Holman, Ireland, Bennet & Bowrey The front 3 now picks itself (I still have faith in Weiman & believe a goal will help him no end) A midfield 3 out of KEA, Delph, Westwood, Sylla & a back 4 of Lowton, Moon, Vlaar & Okore Is a vast improvement. We will struggle to keep clean sheets with this system but we are more than capable of scoring & when the 3 strikers are all firing, we are quite a force. I think to improve on any of those players would cost decent money. We should ask ourselves what figure we would expect if we were to sell one of them. We don't have this money so the only way forward is to bring the squad players on & develop them gradually. I disagree that we need that creative midfielder-It would expose the defence further & I think we have enough firepower up front to get enough goals. Only when chasing a game should a more attacking midfielder be introduced. I also believe the midfield 3 are all capable of passing through teams & we've seen it on many occasions. That goal at Reading last season epitomised for me the way that we try to play. We are moving in the right direction & if we can improve the home form then who knows what can be achieved? I do think we should wait until at least xmas before casting all these judgements - We did win on Saturday after all. This place would have probably gone into meltdown if we'd lost.

Enjoying what? Winning at Arsenal? Giving Chelsea a real fright? Yes I enjoyed those games immensely. Liverpool & Newcastle were disappointing but the win on Saturday was welcome. Not bothered about tonight.This time last year, we were hitting 4 at Man City in the same competition. It produces results like this. As I said,its a ride. If you want a bit more consistency, you better pray theres some oil rich arab out there waiting in the wings, if not, wake up & smell the coffee. We're Aston Villa. We've finished in the top 4 about 4 times in 50 years. Im not sure that is true - we finished 4th in 77, 1st in 81, 2nd in 1992 just from memory. We don't have the funds to finish top 4 - I agree - but I can't accept that makes us confined to relegation battles. It doesn't help when the manager fails to get his priorities right in the transfer market - only buying one CB - One midfielder, loaning a free scoring centre forward - bringing in 2 big CF'S - which would struggle to accommodate even if they were playing well. It hurts - But Lambert dropped some serious clangers this summer. Teams a lot richer than us can ill afford a 60K per week striker getting splinters on his arse every week. There was no alternative but to bomb Bent out & for such a free scoring striker as you put it, why wasn't he snapped up? I think Helenius may provide cover for Weiman & Gabby as well as being a CF. It was all about strengthening the squad within a very limited budget. I think if another player came in, it would have been a CB but they don't grow on trees & obviously with Bent going, a replacement for him was priority (given we have 4 CB's) He got splinters in his arse - because he wasn't picked. If transfer funds are tight - I personally wouldn't be loaning out a player with Bents goalscoring record to one of our rivals - If you would that's your shout. But if we had £3.5m for Tonev & £7m for Kozak - then our budgets not that limited. Yes we have 4 CB'S - Clarke struggled last season, whilst I like Baker he clearly has problems staying fit, The Vlaar Injury hit us so hard last season -I wouldn't have taken that chance again. Again - if you would thats your call Helenuis looks some way off being to cover for Weiman\Gabby IMO - Again your entitled to say you think can step in adequatley for those players (I don't) I don't think it was financially viable to improve Bentekes contract & pay Bents wages to be a squad player. Bent himself may well have wanted to leave in order to play games. In the situation we are in, keeping Bent on that money was not really an option. Ideally I would have kept him but that said, Kozac may prove to be the better option. OK we've spent some money. We are really shopping in bargain basement & cannot offer the kind of money that Habib Beye was on. Part of the argument before was that we had so many players like him who were taking massive amounts from the club each week & not giving a dam about the club. Now we have young hungry players who would run through a brick wall for AVFC, and people are still moaning. I agree Helenius looks some way off been cover at present. He's played how many minutes of Premiership football? My point was that he wasn't an out & out CF as you were claiming,so we haven't actually bought 2, we've just bought 1. Things are tight here. 5 CB's would be better than 4 but it didn't happen. I'm not a Clark fan myself but cannot criticise his performances this year. Maybe last seasons experience has done him good & he's now maturing a little. Again, lets see how Baker does this season before deciding on how injury prone he is. So ideally:- You would have kept Bent - and purchased another CB You agree that at this point in time Helenuis isn't ready. [i think if he makes it in the prem it will be as CF] Thats pretty close to what I was saying a couple of posts back. Its not close to what you were saying-You were trying to say PL F###ed up by letting Bent go where the reality is that there was no other option. You are saying PL f###ed up by not signing a CB. We signed Helenius for less than £2 million. What kind of CB would hit the ground running & be a ready made Premiership player at that price? Helenius was bought on the back of a prolific scoring record for a very small sum. There is something there to work with & he's one for the future. He may well end up as CF but as a bonus, he's also cover for the wide forwards. There is no point blaming the manager-The money available & more importantly the wages that we now offer means we have to buy like this. It would be the same whoever the manager is as that is his remit. We won at Norwich & our squad players got spanked by a team who just spent almost £100 million on players & who are one of the top 5 sides in the country. The general consensus is that we are a mid table side at present. Mid table sides win some & they loose some. Maybe at some point in the future, investment will be made again but for now, we have to cut our cloth accordingly.

Enjoying what? Winning at Arsenal? Giving Chelsea a real fright? Yes I enjoyed those games immensely. Liverpool & Newcastle were disappointing but the win on Saturday was welcome. Not bothered about tonight.This time last year, we were hitting 4 at Man City in the same competition. It produces results like this. As I said,its a ride. If you want a bit more consistency, you better pray theres some oil rich arab out there waiting in the wings, if not, wake up & smell the coffee. We're Aston Villa. We've finished in the top 4 about 4 times in 50 years. Im not sure that is true - we finished 4th in 77, 1st in 81, 2nd in 1992 just from memory. We don't have the funds to finish top 4 - I agree - but I can't accept that makes us confined to relegation battles. It doesn't help when the manager fails to get his priorities right in the transfer market - only buying one CB - One midfielder, loaning a free scoring centre forward - bringing in 2 big CF'S - which would struggle to accommodate even if they were playing well. It hurts - But Lambert dropped some serious clangers this summer. Teams a lot richer than us can ill afford a 60K per week striker getting splinters on his arse every week. There was no alternative but to bomb Bent out & for such a free scoring striker as you put it, why wasn't he snapped up? I think Helenius may provide cover for Weiman & Gabby as well as being a CF. It was all about strengthening the squad within a very limited budget. I think if another player came in, it would have been a CB but they don't grow on trees & obviously with Bent going, a replacement for him was priority (given we have 4 CB's) He got splinters in his arse - because he wasn't picked. If transfer funds are tight - I personally wouldn't be loaning out a player with Bents goalscoring record to one of our rivals - If you would that's your shout. But if we had £3.5m for Tonev & £7m for Kozak - then our budgets not that limited. Yes we have 4 CB'S - Clarke struggled last season, whilst I like Baker he clearly has problems staying fit, The Vlaar Injury hit us so hard last season -I wouldn't have taken that chance again. Again - if you would thats your call Helenuis looks some way off being to cover for Weiman\Gabby IMO - Again your entitled to say you think can step in adequatley for those players (I don't) I don't think it was financially viable to improve Bentekes contract & pay Bents wages to be a squad player. Bent himself may well have wanted to leave in order to play games. In the situation we are in, keeping Bent on that money was not really an option. Ideally I would have kept him but that said, Kozac may prove to be the better option. OK we've spent some money. We are really shopping in bargain basement & cannot offer the kind of money that Habib Beye was on. Part of the argument before was that we had so many players like him who were taking massive amounts from the club each week & not giving a dam about the club. Now we have young hungry players who would run through a brick wall for AVFC, and people are still moaning. I agree Helenius looks some way off been cover at present. He's played how many minutes of Premiership football? My point was that he wasn't an out & out CF as you were claiming,so we haven't actually bought 2, we've just bought 1. Things are tight here. 5 CB's would be better than 4 but it didn't happen. I'm not a Clark fan myself but cannot criticise his performances this year. Maybe last seasons experience has done him good & he's now maturing a little. Again, lets see how Baker does this season before deciding on how injury prone he is.

Enjoying what? Winning at Arsenal? Giving Chelsea a real fright? Yes I enjoyed those games immensely. Liverpool & Newcastle were disappointing but the win on Saturday was welcome. Not bothered about tonight.This time last year, we were hitting 4 at Man City in the same competition. It produces results like this. As I said,its a ride. If you want a bit more consistency, you better pray theres some oil rich arab out there waiting in the wings, if not, wake up & smell the coffee. We're Aston Villa. We've finished in the top 4 about 4 times in 50 years. Im not sure that is true - we finished 4th in 77, 1st in 81, 2nd in 1992 just from memory. We don't have the funds to finish top 4 - I agree - but I can't accept that makes us confined to relegation battles. It doesn't help when the manager fails to get his priorities right in the transfer market - only buying one CB - One midfielder, loaning a free scoring centre forward - bringing in 2 big CF'S - which would struggle to accommodate even if they were playing well. It hurts - But Lambert dropped some serious clangers this summer. Teams a lot richer than us can ill afford a 60K per week striker getting splinters on his arse every week. There was no alternative but to bomb Bent out & for such a free scoring striker as you put it, why wasn't he snapped up? I think Helenius may provide cover for Weiman & Gabby as well as being a CF. It was all about strengthening the squad within a very limited budget. I think if another player came in, it would have been a CB but they don't grow on trees & obviously with Bent going, a replacement for him was priority (given we have 4 CB's)

Sorry-We may have finished 4th under Little as well so I'll give you 5 maximum.

2nd under Graham Taylor in 1990 That's your lot pal

Who hoofs it to the bigman? I'll give you Clark on 2 or 3 occasions on Saturday but apart from that, we always try to play it out & given the pressure we were under, I was quite happy to see the ball hoofed out of defence & into the opponents half. Name me a goal that we've scored as a result of hoofing it to the bigman The keeper, constantly. We don't play it out from the back, we pass it back to the keeper, who clearings in the woods it up to Benteke. As for naming a goal we've scored as a result of this tactic, we don't, that's part of the problem. Doesn't stop us giving it back to Guzan to hoof it up a dozen times a game though. So when you said "hoofing it", you actually meant the keeper kicking it out of his hands Remind me again of how the goal was scored on Saturday From Everton away back in February, we've been playing some good football. This is down to having a settled side & a bit of confidence. We've been at least mid table standard from then onwards. The midfield seem quite happy to be patient & its usually when rushed that players tend to go long. This isn't going to happen overnight - We've got no money so we've got to build from scratch. We're improving & moving in the right direction. Lets just enjoy the ride. Can you offer any evidence of this ? Yes-Look at the results pre-Everton & then look at them after Everton. Simple really What ? - We haven't played Everton this season. Have the players purchased this summer made us significantly stronger in any area of the park ? Because the improvement started from the Everton game. If you're going on this season alone, how many points did you expect from our 1st five games? Stronger positions? Left back & central defence (before injury) Bacura is certainly a better utility player than anything we had & Kozac is a better bet than Bent. In addition, some of the existing players seem to have kicked on a bit from last season, KEA for instance, Sylla is still improving. Clark has done nothing wrong since he's come in either. Tonev at present has not impressed but time is still very much on his side.

Enjoying what? Winning at Arsenal? Giving Chelsea a real fright? Yes I enjoyed those games immensely. Liverpool & Newcastle were disappointing but the win on Saturday was welcome. Not bothered about tonight.This time last year, we were hitting 4 at Man City in the same competition. It produces results like this. As I said,its a ride. If you want a bit more consistency, you better pray theres some oil rich arab out there waiting in the wings, if not, wake up & smell the coffee. We're Aston Villa. We've finished in the top 4 about 4 times in 50 years.

Who hoofs it to the bigman? I'll give you Clark on 2 or 3 occasions on Saturday but apart from that, we always try to play it out & given the pressure we were under, I was quite happy to see the ball hoofed out of defence & into the opponents half. Name me a goal that we've scored as a result of hoofing it to the bigman The keeper, constantly. We don't play it out from the back, we pass it back to the keeper, who clearings in the woods it up to Benteke. As for naming a goal we've scored as a result of this tactic, we don't, that's part of the problem. Doesn't stop us giving it back to Guzan to hoof it up a dozen times a game though. So when you said "hoofing it", you actually meant the keeper kicking it out of his hands Remind me again of how the goal was scored on Saturday From Everton away back in February, we've been playing some good football. This is down to having a settled side & a bit of confidence. We've been at least mid table standard from then onwards. The midfield seem quite happy to be patient & its usually when rushed that players tend to go long. This isn't going to happen overnight - We've got no money so we've got to build from scratch. We're improving & moving in the right direction. Lets just enjoy the ride. Can you offer any evidence of this ? Yes-Look at the results pre-Everton & then look at them after Everton. Simple really

Yes, the lack of quality worries me terribly. Who would you have signed? I don't blame Lambert, I blame the budget. OK got ya I still think there is progress being made. I agree we can only go so far with this strategy but its all we have at the moment so might as well get behind the manager & players. People need to understand that even if we were to sell Benteke for example, the only players we could buy with the money would be similar to the ones coming in at present. Our wage structure has seen to that. No more selling Milners & buying Bents & no more "quality" midfielders from Man City on £60K odd a week.

Yes, the lack of quality worries me terribly. Who would you have signed?

Who hoofs it to the bigman? I'll give you Clark on 2 or 3 occasions on Saturday but apart from that, we always try to play it out & given the pressure we were under, I was quite happy to see the ball hoofed out of defence & into the opponents half. Name me a goal that we've scored as a result of hoofing it to the bigman The keeper, constantly. We don't play it out from the back, we pass it back to the keeper, who clearings in the woods it up to Benteke. As for naming a goal we've scored as a result of this tactic, we don't, that's part of the problem. Doesn't stop us giving it back to Guzan to hoof it up a dozen times a game though. So when you said "hoofing it", you actually meant the keeper kicking it out of his hands Remind me again of how the goal was scored on Saturday From Everton away back in February, we've been playing some good football. This is down to having a settled side & a bit of confidence. We've been at least mid table standard from then onwards. The midfield seem quite happy to be patient & its usually when rushed that players tend to go long. This isn't going to happen overnight - We've got no money so we've got to build from scratch. We're improving & moving in the right direction. Lets just enjoy the ride.

Who hoofs it to the bigman? I'll give you Clark on 2 or 3 occasions on Saturday but apart from that, we always try to play it out & given the pressure we were under, I was quite happy to see the ball hoofed out of defence & into the opponents half. Name me a goal that we've scored as a result of hoofing it to the bigman

I'll have a pint of whatever this fella's drinking

Exactly, the second half smacked of a team so desperate to hang on for a clean sheet having not had one in ages that they were lucky to get away with it. But just hanging on will give them confidence to do it more comfortably next time, especially if they have the pace of Gabby and Benteke up front as an outlet, which like you say we were denied. Gabby & CB off, Westwood, Lowton & Okore not even starting. That's half our first choice line up not even playing. Would anyone have been disappointed with 6 points from these 1st five games when the fixtures first came out?

Glad to see so many positive comments regarding AW. I too am a big fan. He desperately needs a goal but you could argue that Gabby hasn't scored yet this season either. I was getting slightly concerned but reading so many positive comments has re-Focused my own positive attitude towards this player.