nick76

again it's not losing 1-0 it is the manner we lost in.....and your points above are a bit rose tinted. I could argue why his decisions were wrong and go through each of your points but I'm running out of energy keep arguing and debating about this manager. If people are happy or not willing to change the issues we have I'm starting to lose hope, I just can't see how people can defend this and then McLeish have the hide and say what he did in the post match interview......just very sad about it all......

Finally seen McLeish's post match interview, if people defend him after that then there is no hope.

great post I have to say! Don't agree with it though and stated my reasons in prior posts on this thread. Doing nothing means you are accepting the situation and accepting potential consequences and that's your choice, some of us are not prepared to accept that that's our choice. Some of your arguments I don't agree with.....doing the protest is also a selfless task as well because we know it will hurt the reputation slightly of Aston Villa but we are doing this for the long term benefit of the club. One step backwards to move two steps forward. Accepting the current situation for me means I am not really supporting the club as the welfare of the club is being hurt by this current manager and as a supporter I must act now to stop this continuing. While you may not agree with me this is my feelings on the subject. Doing nothing I feel I am not truly supporting the club as I'm letting the welfare of my club decline and I'm not doing anything to stop that.

It doesnt at all. It boils down to - not jumping on their backs purely because you think hes not good enough. Especially if the person saying hes not good enough, doesnt know his arse from his elbow when it comes to being a football manager. So far we dont know if hes not good enough or not yet because hes only been there 6 months. And what exactly is good enough? Because so far hes won exactly the same as the previous managers over the past 16 years or so. **** all, albeit - but what exactly is our benchmark?? IMO, (based on the last 20 years) its inconsistent form. Hes pretty much gettin that nail on the head. his career as a manager to me proves he's not good enough, he should never have got the job and now he has, apart from a few spells we have been awful. That's my opinion and I know we won't agree and I respect your opinion and can see where you are coming from I just don't agree. Thanks for the debate though

You're probably right, each person is entitled to their own view. My only concern is, I'm not sure what a protest will achieve To be honest I'm not sure, if anything, what the protest will achieve either but what i do know is doing nothing will definitely achieve nothing which is not good enough for me. The protest will probably achieve nothing but if it did make a difference then it's worthwhile in my opinion as I'm not happy with the current situation and I don't want it to continue

I dont see how you can get behind the team without getting behind the most integral part of that team? Without a manager, we havent got a team. If people are saying that Mcliesh (i.e. the manager) and the team are two seperate aspects of AVFC, then it seems ludicrously unfair to pinpoint the blame at Mcliesh for the teams failures?? Point is, the arguement that its possible to get behind the team and not the manager is bollocks. Think many people are mistaking supporting/getting behind as singing/cheering etc, when actually, just erasing the whole 'i want you to fail' attitude that ooozes around Villa Park would go a long way imo. there is a difference between 'I want you to fail' and what I believe is 'I know you are going to fail' distinct difference and very unfair on villa fans that you state that. No villa fan wants villa to fail. How can you get behind a team without getting behind a manager......obvious....support the team emphatically when they are on the pitch! Don't care what the manager does.........just give the players as much support when they are playing, despite poor tactics, poor player formations and no idea how to adapt when circumstances change......that's how But by cheering the team on, your inadvertedly cheering the manager on imo? Hes the guy that puts them there. You mention dispite of poor tactics etc for the players. Why not support the manager in spite of poor players, better oppositions, lack of investment in the squad, limited skill level?? You know, is Mcliesh 'being shite' (not exactly my view btw) a reason not to get behind him?? Is that what we do nowadays - discourage those who arent quite good enough - and indeed not quite good enough - on the basis that a load of absolute know it alls (who in the grand scheme of things, know absolutely buggar all about running a professional football team), say he isnt. Of course the obvious answer to that is he got relegated twice so he isnt good enough! So we live in a world where nobodys allowed to improve, and learn from the mistakes they previously made? You really have got it tits about face if you refuse to support the teams manger (who you can blatently see is giving his all) and yet you support a set of overpaid players, who turn up as and when it suits their preferences. look I see what you are saying, and yes we shouldn't discourage those who aren't quite good enough but this isn't a guy I work with, a mate whose not that bright, a son whose struggling....... this is the manager who runs my team Aston Villa, we aren't a charity case! He's not good enough in my opinion and never will be.....just because he's giving it all makes no difference, he's not good enough! This is too hard! Your argument now boils down to giving people a chance even if they aren't good enough......I'm shocked

I dont see how you can get behind the team without getting behind the most integral part of that team? Without a manager, we havent got a team. If people are saying that Mcliesh (i.e. the manager) and the team are two seperate aspects of AVFC, then it seems ludicrously unfair to pinpoint the blame at Mcliesh for the teams failures?? Point is, the arguement that its possible to get behind the team and not the manager is bollocks. Think many people are mistaking supporting/getting behind as singing/cheering etc, when actually, just erasing the whole YES I AGREE well done some1 who's got right idea gettin behind ur team is not rallying up a few idiots and slagging off the club! when i say club i mean anything to do with Aston Villa weather it be players, manager or Chairman it just doesn't help the situation. We need to get behind the team and make sure we're in this league nxt season! this is why people are protesting....your words sum it up....our aim is just to stay up...how far have we dropped???? That this is our aim! But let's not do anything about it, let's accept this is our aim and back an incompetent manager that might or might not achieve this aim.....let's accept that! I'm so angry that what it has come down to and some of us aren't happy with that and hence the protest. And we aren't slagging the club off as you say we are saying we are not happy and we want change. That is not slagging the club off it's voicing our opinion because we want the long term benefit of the club. Accepting the current situation in my mind is far worse than protesting, it's accepting our goal is to try and stay in the league as you say.....that's not my aim and shouldn't be villa's aim

I dont see how you can get behind the team without getting behind the most integral part of that team? Without a manager, we havent got a team. If people are saying that Mcliesh (i.e. the manager) and the team are two seperate aspects of AVFC, then it seems ludicrously unfair to pinpoint the blame at Mcliesh for the teams failures?? Point is, the arguement that its possible to get behind the team and not the manager is bollocks. Think many people are mistaking supporting/getting behind as singing/cheering etc, when actually, just erasing the whole 'i want you to fail' attitude that ooozes around Villa Park would go a long way imo. there is a difference between 'I want you to fail' and what I believe is 'I know you are going to fail' distinct difference and very unfair on villa fans that you state that. No villa fan wants villa to fail. How can you get behind a team without getting behind a manager......obvious....support the team emphatically when they are on the pitch! Don't care what the manager does.........just give the players as much support when they are playing, despite poor tactics, poor player formations and no idea how to adapt when circumstances change......that's how

You may be happier and think it is a joke! I would say you are being simplistic and picking on some good points but then I could throw back loads of bad points and issues, and you dismiss some of them and I would come back with some argument and we would get nowhere apart from difference of opinion. The basic thing though that while you don't agree with the protest, other people feel they have to have their say and unfortunately a protest is the only means those people have to voice their opinions more than on a message board. You think it's a joke which is unfair on those people, you have to respect other people feel different and have some valid reasons. There will always be some idiots there as well who will obviously embarrass us but the sentiment of the protest is still valid to some villa fans. So saying it a joke is wrong, you may not agree but that is your right

I agree about rotten apples in the squad but I'm not going to support a manager who is not right for the club. I will support the team at the start to the end of each game on the pitch as they need that but I will slate or big up players outside of that

still don't understand why it's embarrassing. Get behind the team, yes......get behind the manager, no!

Agreed. I do not rate McLeish and would prefer him not here and there may well be a time in future to protest about it but agree the timing of this protest is wrong and not needed. but it's always waiting isn't, no time is good. First it was give him the first 7 games, then let's see by Christmas, then end of Jan, now following those games you mention, some people say end of end season, some even say end of next season when he's had a full season. I have seen nothing in the time he has been here to warrant any more time. The fact is he isn't good enough......one or two good results or great performances will happen because laws of nature means it has to, but then we'll have some diabolical performances and most will be less than average at best. My opinion is not based on one game, it's over his duration and he simply isn't good enough over the average of the season......he has to go. No time is good so why not now? Let's think of the long term now, and get somebody else in Look i don't rate McLeish and his record this season so far has been truly terrible and we should not be in the dunces half of league and agree theres little to suggest his crap winning 1 in every 4 or so games Premier league record will change but a protest before a game against Man City IS the wrong time for a protest. You say theres never a right time to protest but there is IMO a wrong time to - which this weekends game would be . I'm interested why this weekend is a bad weekend? I thought it was a good weekend to do it because even if we were flying this would be an extremely difficult game that we would really struggle to get any kind of result. City are really hard to compete with and if we were flying I'd still say we'd probably only have 1 in 4 chance of winning wouldn't we. Given how we are playing and especially at home, our defence is really struggling to put it mildly then chances of a result look unlikely but there is always a chance of a surprising result but far more unlikely that likely. Is that a fair assessment? If we were playing a lower level team the I agree this weekend might not be a good weekend to do it, as there is a better chance of a result, that's why I think this weekend is a better time to do it than another weekend. I'm interested to hear why you think not this weekend if there was going to be a weekend for a protest?

I'm sure we were saying that not only are the results are bad but so is the football......slightly different on what you are saying. Football being decent? we've had a few spells in a few games that's it. More atrocious football than decent/great football in my opinion.

Agreed. I do not rate McLeish and would prefer him not here and there may well be a time in future to protest about it but agree the timing of this protest is wrong and not needed. but it's always waiting isn't, no time is good. First it was give him the first 7 games, then let's see by Christmas, then end of Jan, now following those games you mention, some people say end of end season, some even say end of next season when he's had a full season. I have seen nothing in the time he has been here to warrant any more time. The fact is he isn't good enough......one or two good results or great performances will happen because laws of nature means it has to, but then we'll have some diabolical performances and most will be less than average at best. My opinion is not based on one game, it's over his duration and he simply isn't good enough over the average of the season......he has to go. No time is good so why not now? Let's think of the long term now, and get somebody else in

I hope it does happen. Embarrassing yes, but look at us already we have become a bit of a joke......unlike some on here I'd be happy for us look like clowns for a bit if it gets the desired result because watching this football for the majority of the time is painful. Also to be honest who cares what other people think, for one I only care about Aston Villa and two, this will have been forgotten when the next media story comes out. Today's news s tomorrow's rubbish and all that.

better than sitting on our backside and accepting what we are getting

the brand does not have a great history in either quality of material or in the style of shirt. As a revenue generating stream, while the initial figure is significantly more than the Nike deal, potentially our overall yearly profit from all sportswear revenue may be significantly different. Reasoning being that fans that generally buy the kit still will but those who only buy based on style or other accessories by how it looks may not buy or buy less compared to a brand like Nike. This is only speculation and I'm looking forward to seeing the range, as it will have the advantage of being in June and July rather than Nike. But you can see the potential downside if Macrons prior history if anything to go by, but again let's wait until the range is out.......so my view is good initial deal I figures wise, not comfortable with the brand until I see the range

whose said the parts you have mentioned are McLeish's fault? McLeish isn't good enough and I've explained my reasoning in prior posts. With money being tight and us having to pay him out when we do eventually fire him as with what happens with most managers, then get him out now. He's proved he isn't god enough so I don't want to wait another 18 months to sit here in the same position or worse having spent some of our restricted money and then having to start over again. Comparing GT though, while I agree about the position in the league there was at least a bit of hope and you could see he had talent.

So we have got to one place.....with varying degrees obviously from people who don't want him but we are stuck with him so give him a chance to people who don't want him and want him out now? So nobody still actually wants him here......says everything!

Well, Nick, what are your credentials? oh the pressure now well I've never been relegated...good start! I want the job! Ermmmm......I won a raffle once How did I do?

1. AMs past...... when you have 200 Villa fans breaking into Villa Park live on SSN chanting "We Don't Want McLeish" it shows there is a problem. When on camera the guy interviewed says "It a'int about the blouse" when he has "SOTC" written on both sleeves and across his chest you become suspicious about peoples motives. There are too many fans motivated by a hatred of a nothing club that play in a cow shed rather than a desire to support their own team. Which I find pathetic. After all, if we refused to take on ex-blousers we wouldn't have won the European Cup. 2. Style of football..... like I said... workmanlike. Makes the best of what he's got and what he can get hold of. The one thing MON is outstanding at is getting average players to play like world class ones. AM does not have that ability. We are at our true level. Dunne makes mistakes, and for what ever reason he doesn't seem to fancy Cuellar. Thats fine. I trust him. He's got the coaching badges not me. We sold our two best players over the summer and have not replaced them so we were never ever going to move forward. 3. His record.... YES he steered the blues down... twice. They have always yo-yo'd up and down the divisions. You can't polish a turd. They are shite. They will always be shite whoevers in charge. Hughton getting them back up is not an achievement when they are one of the richest clubs in the Championship with a stack or parachute payments. BUT he took that shower of shite to a Carling Cup Final and won it. MON didn't manage to do that. 4. The fans.... the fans not believing AM will go anywhere IS problem. Not AM himself. He hasn't been given a fair crack of the whip and as I said in my OP he needs time to put his mark on the squad, and given that Randy clearly isn't handing out the levels of cash MON enjoyed that will take time. The players at home look shit scared because every mistake they make the crowd turns on them and AM. (See point 1) If walked into my office and told my staff that everyone thinks they are shit and pounce on every mistake with a barrage of abuse, my team wouldn't perform. Its the same thing here at Villa Park. Having paid £10m in compensation to MON and GH plus back room staff, AM is here for the duration of his contract whether the fans like it or not. My suggestion? Get over it. Support your team. Stop the booing and the moaning. I respect your opinion and I agree with parts but don't agree with others but it's a healthy debate. I do support my team though and I don't boo but outside of games I will moan because I want the best for my club and IMO McLeish is detrimental to that so I will continue outside of games to moan until he either proves me wrong or more likely he is booted out. I will not accept the status quo just because it is the easy option

and? What has that got to do with it, just because you want something doesn't mean you are god enough for it. I wanted to be the next Villa manager, does that mean when Alex is fired I will get the job appreciate the fact that he wanted to come to us, by the sounds of it nobody else did, even martinez turned us down and that was a blessing in disguise you really believe nobody else wanted to come to us just because Martinez turned us down.......we are still a mid-tabled club that's fairly big, there are only probably 7 or 8 clubs that might have a bigger draw than us so if you are hanging on nobody wanted to come to us then that's clutching at straws

and? What has that got to do with it, just because you want something doesn't mean you are god enough for it. I wanted to be the next Villa manager, does that mean when Alex is fired I will get the job

thanks good reply. I would ask a question though, why do you think people like me don't like him mainly because he managed the blues. I admit I hate the blues, but his being a blues manager previously has absolutely no bearing on how I feel about him now. In stark contrast I would love him to be successful just so I can turn around to my blue nose mates and gloat that we pinched a great thing from them who will be a legend at our club. So if anything him being at blues and we pinching him I want him to succeed to rub it in my mates faces. Failure they can just say they sold us a lemon. Surely that makes more sense than me wanting him to fail. His record is my issue, how his teams play, he is unimagative, he makes constant errors, he can't react when other manages do, he's not fixing problems that are happening over and over again, international players don't seem to know what to do, tactics seem one dimensional at best and can't change, his excuses are pitiful and we generally 9 times out of 10 look the poorer team in games......that's my reasoning and that's why I want him gone now. I want to build on a team with a manager over the next 5 to 10 years as we go through this phase we are in with money restrictions. We, as fans, need to believe in a manager that can do that but with McLeish we can't and the fans seem to be agreeing with me....low crowds, booing at games, forums in meltdown and media commenting.....it's so detrimental to the club that it has to change now or more likely the summer so this club can consolidate and build for the future. McLeish is not the answer and will never be because too many people don't think he's good enough and he isn't, I'm not backing a manager just because I hear the term we need to get behind him....getting behind the wrong person is just foolish. If there is a problem you fix it and move on, we have a problem and it needs fixing before we can move on.

So the comments following brummyblokes message are not replying or debating his points but focusing on the acronyms of GC......just as brummyblokes says, you avoid answering....