PB

^^^ An excellent post HolteExile, full of very valid points

I didnt really want to get into a MON debate, but I guess his shadow hangs long over Villa park, the things he did and didnt do, could have done, should have done and might have done still nuance events at the club today. Whether I think its right, or anyone thinks its right, it seems clear to me that lerner selected O'Neill as the man he believed could bring Champions League football to Villa Park. I think he further believes that he gave ONeill sufficient resources to achieve that goal. It seems to me as if ONeill, as managers are wont to, demanded more and more and Lerner was faced with a back him or sack him decision, and did neither in the summer of 2010, which for me was weak. He clearly had the money to give (as he gave a massive chunk of cash to Houllier), but appears to have decided he didnt trust O'Neill's judgement. At that point, he should have sacked him, even if he was the only person in the world who didnt trust him. I wouldnt be surprised to find out that a big chunk of that mistrust was based around what Redknapp did with Spurs, who regardless of starting points made it into the top 4 with a smaller wage budget than O'Neill. In other words it was demonstrated beyond any doubt that there was at least one manager (and one generally regarded as a manager who needed to spend big to achieve success) who was making better use of his resources than O'Neill. I'm sure that must have hurt Randy, he must have felt let down. It certainly hurt me watching Spurs last season, and it should have hurt all Villa fans. Instead, we were all too busy celebrating Blues getting relegated, the biggest cheer of the season at Villa Park. Maybe thats our level.

I dont disagree :-)

While I understand the point of view that you are putting across, I think its maybe time that Villa fans stopped thinking of Birmingham in these kind of terms. I know that many do, but I think its small time. Villa's rivals are Spurs, Liverpool, Everton and Man City. Birmingham are a nothing club of no more matter to us than Coventry. I think we give them more attention than they deserve. Oh, and McLeish isnt a paedophile ( I guess). He is just, to use your analogy, a Sainsbury's manager who has been employed by Tesco in the past.

Harry did. If I was owner of Villa I'd be thinking, how? Why? Why not me? If I was Villa's owner I'd be livid that my money didnt buy what Spurs got. A Cup final defeat and a couple of sixth placed finishes. Thanks a bloody lot. How about my trips to the San Siro and Bernabau? Sorry, but I genuinely dont get why Villa fans arent more angry with O'Neill.

I dont think everyone going over and over this ground is really doing anyone any favours. O'Neill came, spent a shed load of money (on players who ultimately didnt perform as well as they should have done given their hefty price tags and wage packets), then left at the worst possible moment. End of story. Speaking purely from my own point of view, as stated on here about a million times, I wouldnt have given him the chance to do the dirty in the way he did as I would have binned him at the very latest at the end of the previous season when the comparison with what Redknapp was achieving on similar resources at Spurs became clear. This isnt hindsight, this is the opinion I stated on here for the last year plus of O'Neill's tenure. Just IMHO, feel free to disagree, you are clearly going to do so anyway. [edited by PB]

As always Pete you make some outstanding points and its difficult to argue with much you have pointed out. On one thing I think I would disagree. I am not entirely sure that football fans are necessarily consumers in the typical sense of the word. Certainly, they should be listened to when it comes to 'classic' consumer issues - ticketing, catering, access to the ground etc etc. Not listening to your 'customers' on this kind of issue will certainly lead to problems. However, what it is that football fans are buying into is different to that. Football fans want their team to do well, and this, imo, over-rides whatever else is going on. If, at the end of the day McLeish is successful (in Villa terms) then the fans will very quickly forget all this mess, because they will be having their need to see Villa win met. It is also the case that alot of fans have been very unreasonable and unrealistic in who they wanted as manager. I dont know about this board, but on Twitter there was fury at the suggestion that Benitez might be manager, scorn poured on McLaren and indifference towards Ranieri, all of which I find baffling. Maybe Randy just figured out that if he carried on listening to the fans he wouldnt appoint anyone unless he could persuade Villas-Boas, Ancelotti or Van Gaal to come. Its probably his own fault for raising expectations in the first place. I dont think appointing McLeish was right, but i also dont think its the calamity some would have us believe. I dont see any reason why he wouldnt do every bit as good/bad (delete as you see fit) a job as O'Neill did. I expect to see Villa in that sort of 6th-8th spot under him.

There are times when backing the manager the right thing to do. For example, when the manager is working with another guy's team, trying to totally change the style of play, dealing with "player power" and is just a couple of months into the job. There comes a time however, when continued backing of a manager is weak. For example, when you have given a manager the resources required to achieve a certain target, and he fails to achieve that target within a reasonable time frame. Prematurely binning a manager just because he is unpopular with the fans would be as weak as not binning a manager just because he was popular, imho.

I have to say that I was genuinely surprised to read this. I thought, with one or two obvious exceptions, that everyone had moved on from this 'O'Neill did a good job' thing? Fair play to you for sticking to your guns One thing I will say though is that if you liked O'Neill and disliked Houllier then you'll love McLeish. Right up your street I should think

indeed. The point I am making however is that decisions in this business, well in pretty much any business really, will probably upset some folks, especially those you are competing with. To be successful you need to be hard headed enough to have confidence in yourself and the decisions you make. It is an error for example to set up an appointment with McLaren and then cancel it because the fans dont like it. If McLaren is the man the board decided was the man then thats who should have got the job. I'm all for listening to the fans, but this pussy footing around around them isnt going to get anyone anywhere. its a bit pathetic frankly. Its a bit like a government making unpopular short term decisions that they hope will work out in the long term. Leadership is like that, you need the vision and then the strength of character to see it through tough times when everyone's telling you that you've got it wrong. As a leader you listen to advice from various sources, you consult with those you lead, and then you decide. Consulting with those you lead is not in any way the same as caving into pressure from them. That's weak leadership. You can only judge things on eventual outcomes against stated targets, not day to day ups and downs. I forget who it was who said that its better to make a wrong decision than make no decision, but in my experience life is like that. [edit] And dont get me wrong, I think McLeish is a wrong decision. Not wrong in the calamitous 'the end of the world is nigh' way that some people think, but wrong in the same way that O'Neill was wrong, football at the very top level isnt played like that any more. I imagine the outcome will be similar, three or four years of mucking about in upper mid table boring the pants off everyone watching. All I can do at this point is hope I'm wrong and he carries on the work Houllier started.

Even the £2m is, at best, premature according to Matt Kendrick. I'm sure we will pay them something though, because at the end of the day we did steal their manager, even if they did want to sack him ....

James Milner is a Champions League quality player, the only player we have who is (imo) unquestionably of that standard. I'm not sure we can, or really should, get in the way of a move to his proper level. I'd love to think we could hold onto him, but really, he needs to step up now if he is to properly fulfil his massive potential to go on and become a genuine world class talent. Good luck James whatever you chose to do, and thanks for this last season

I dont think it was necessary to be a soothsayer. What prompted the article was that we had, in the build up to Arsenal away played 5 games in 16 days and picked the same starting 11 in every game If MON had confidence in his squad he would have started 15 or 16 players in that situation. As he clearly had no confidence in his squad, it was clear that he would run the players he had confidence in into the ground To give those players the credit they deserve they have bounced back from that abysmal showing at Wembley really very well, and I'm delighted to see us still hanging around the fringes. if we can win at Eastlands we'll actually have half a chance (assuming we beat Blues too). So credit where its due

I think that the top teams pick full backs who can attack rather than defend (Rafael, Cole, Bosingwa, Clichy etc). Warnock would be great at it if he was given proper licence. But he isnt

I think that the effects on him of Luke Young's brother passing shouldnt be underestimated. Losing a sibling is in many ways the very worst kind of grief. I doubt he is anywhere near over it mentally if they were any way close, and I understand that they were really very close. Playing sport at the top level requires you to be 100% every week. I dont think Luke has been this season, for understandable reasons. its possible he never will be again. I'd suggest playing Habib Beye, but he's really a centre back too, as his shocking positioning in the early games of this season showed. bit of a strange buy that one. So while Carlos Cuellar isnt exactly the best right back in the world, he would appear to be the best we have just now

Still. Stevo? That last bit, I'm there way before you mate Is it? Little worth Jon? So, where are we today lads? Time to re-evaluate I would suggest

The funny thing about this report is that we all saw it coming, months and months ago. Glad you can still look on the bright side. Me? I stopped caring a long time ago, around the time you trashed my last article on here. Blandy, an article in which I said I'd take 6th and a Carling Cup as a good season. To be frank, right now I'd take 7th and no Cup as a good season, and to be honest this kind of clutching at straws is less than i would expect of a proper analysis of our season from a writer of your undoubted pedigree. 7-1 mate. Sorry, thats bloody embarrassing. You want to deny that? Got much of an agenda? Football in 2001, is, imo, a mugs game. Lets hope the rumours are true.

I'm told that some aspects of this blog post may be unclear. Let me summarise 1. It is my belief and opinion that of the seven clubs I mention as competitors in this article, our squad is the weakest in most aspects. it is close in some cases, but overall that is my evaluation. This is clearly a matter of subjective opinion based upon nothing other than my watching these teams play this season. If you disagree with this premise, as you are clearly entitled to, then clearly you arent going to agree with the article, fair enough, but leave out the abuse pls 2. Our squad is considerably weaker than either Manchester United or Chelsea, to the point that it is ridiculous to even consider us as competitors to them. If you disagree with that, then of course that is clearly your prerogative. For me its very clear. So that leaves 4. 3. These four clubs, specifically Arsenal, Liverpool, Tottenham and Manchester City, should, given their squads, finish above us over a 38 game campaign. It isnt nailed on by any means, but that would be my expectation especially given that we are likely to be the only one of these to keep our chequebook shut next month. Therefore, if we can finish sixth, and therefore finish above one of them, we will have done really pretty well (especially if we add to that some silverware). I'd be pleased with that as a season and would consider it, all things considered, as a step up from last season. Finishing fifth, and therefore beating two of them, well, that would really be a significant achievement. I'd be really delighted with that. 4. My personal belief is that beating three of these, and finishing fourth, is too much to ask of this group of players. It is possible, there are sixty points left to play for, and we will need something like 40 of those, possibly a little less, but I think its too much. Again, this is my subjective opinion and you are free to disagree. This would be truly a magnificent achievement, almost unbelievably so. I dont think we have the ability, the experience or the leadership, but hope to be proven wrong. 5. Enjoy it, we are up here competing with the big boys, but look fellas, dont get all Billy big bollox. The attitude that comes over from some is one of extreme hubris. I suggest winding it in, we have done nothing yet, nothing at all, and the team can probably do without that pressure. Thats all, apologies for any misunderstandings. I'm going to now edge towards the door and wish you all a merry Christmas and a Happy New year. I hope 2010 brings us what we deserve. PB (and jon, no the reason I havent been around of late has nothing to do with our resurgence, you will note I havent been around since September which is when the OU starts. Something has to give way to studying, and for me its Villa Talk. if I was as you imply worried by our resurgence then this would be a pretty daft time to post again wouldnt it? Furthermore, at no point have I ever wanted MON gone. I have never said that, or indeed implied that, I challenge you to find a post that says different. No need to make things up to support your argument, thanks.)

I think this more or less sums up what I'm saying No it isnt. no it isnt a superb achievement. its meaningless in terms of 'achievements'. Its December. If we are two points away from united in may, thats a superb achievement. We havent done anything yet, thats what I'm saying, and there is a long way to go and our opponents are bloody good and bloody experienced. this is the best league in the world. To finish sixth in this League considering the opposition this season would be a really good achievement To finish fourth? Wow, I think you underestimate greatly what is required. the team that finishes fourth in this League will be one of the best teams in Europe, historically you would say capable of launching a serious bid for the Champions League title next season. Look at our squad, and ask yourself that question, are we that good?

Hmm, think you need to read more closely If you read that again I wrote there is no chance that we will finish above United and chelsea (ie win the League), and there is none. get over it. over 38 games we will be 15 points at least behind those clubs, they are different class to us. No shame in that I also wrote that in my opinion these other clubs (Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs and Man city) have imho better and deeper squads than us, more quality and so over the course of the season *should* do better than us. Will they? I dont know. it seems unlikely to me that we would finish above three of them, which is what we would need to do in order to finish top four. Their squads all look, I dont know, more developed, more talented. I believe, that over the second half the season, liverpool and Arsenal in particular will be stronger, much stronger, they always are. Will we? I dont know, its an open question, we and just about all of our players are totally unproven at this level, these others have nothing to prove to anyone, they have been there, done that, got the tshirt. I would expect, based upon my experience, that over a season that will tell in the final points tally. We shall see. You can deride the importance of having an experienced manager all you like, but last year Wenger ate O'Neill for breakfast. No contest. In the second half of the campaign Wenger kept his cool and stuck to his principles, because he knew he had the better team. O'Neill didnt. You see, this pisses me off. Because, again, if you actually chose to read what i wrote, instead of scan reading it and forming a false impression, you'd see that I wrote, quite clearly, that i am really enjoying it. but I'm taking it one game at a time. I'm being realistic, I'm not getting carried away on some silly wave of euphoria based around half a dozen decent performances. I've been around too long. Did I say we were stuck in the 80s? No, that desperately unfair. Someone else implied that our team from 1980-81 had grit and determination and that was enough, I was merely responding that you know what, great, I was there and I agree. but that isnt enough today. I dont think we're stuck in the 80s at all, and I have not expressed that opinion in this piece or in any of my replies, so once again, please read what I actually wrote, not what you thought I did. I thought more of you than that Blandy

Sorry, Stevo, in that case I didnt come over as I intended. There is a chance we'll finish top four, of course there is. the performances against Hull, united and Sunderland were much more what i would expect from a team in our position even if the game against Stoke saw us revert back into our negative shell again. Milner in central midfield is a revelation, the new David Platt perhaps and if we can keep him fit, and in that central position (which also requires Young and the notoriously injury prone Downing being kept fit) then who knows what might happen? Defensively we are obviously very, very solid, and that is winning us points we shouldnt really be getting at the moment. Can we rely on that for the whole season? I dont know, not sure about that at all. I guess what I'm getting at is that while there may be a chance we can be in there in the mix come May, I dont personally believe we will be, and I dont expect us to be really. As I said in the article, ask me again in 10 games time, because in ten games time we'll know, for one thing, whether Liverpool's collapse is real or whether it has more in common with Arsenal's 'Gallasgate' of 12 months ago and we'll have a better idea of whether or not, this time around, our players are better equipped to deal with the pressure that comes with expectation, that coems with needing to win every game, that comes with the media knocking us down as they will if we start to look like the real deal. I'm pleased with where we are, but I've been around too long, seen far too many of these sorts of situations to believe that this time will be any different, because my experience, again as I wrote in the article, is that this hasnt even started yet and Villa always seem to screw it up. Give me, say 55 points after 28 games and I'll start to believe, but even then I'll be looking in the mirror to see how close Liverpool are. We'd better beat bloody Arsenal mind you! My first trip to the Emirates, come on Villa! :-) Have a good christmas lads and lasses

When I say annoying I mean to say that he annoys me, and he does. He irritates me, grates at me, in perhaps much the same way that an ex girlfriend might. The things that used to seem cute and charming now just get on my nerves. I'm not alone either, many people I speak to feel the same. But this isnt about O'Neill, who I think is actually doing a pretty decent job all things considered, and who, being fair, has also said that he fully expects as I do that the top four come May to be more or less the usual suspects. Guys, if you think that me saying Villa are a solid top six side but no more is overly gloomy then I suggest you pull yourselves up sharp. We are a really decent team, with decent players. Milner I think will be a superstar in time. And yes we are on a great run, Downing has made quite a difference and I'm really enjoying it, really revelling in being able to take the mick out of scousers and gobby man City fans - while I can. But top four? Champions League? Come on, be serious. Look. For most of the campaign to date we have been bloody dull, as boring as Leicester were under O'neill for those old enough to remember how dire they were to watch (although I'll concede they were effective, especially when they played us!). How many games have we had more than 50% possession? more shots than the opposition? I accept that these things dont win points, goals for and against do, but ultimately the fourth best (or better) team in the land is going to be better than that, better than a team who cant hold possession even against mediocre opposition like Stoke. I'm sorry if you dont like me pointing that out. I admire our grit, our determination, our effort. These are all fine and necessary qualities in a football team, but this isnt 1980 any more, it isnt enough, not by far. The top teams have genuine world class quality, and they have it in depth, and they have grit, determination and effort, and experience. We dont have that quality, sorry. I appreciate thats not going to be popular at this time, but its simply true. After 38 games the League table doesnt lie, and Villa in the top four is just that, a lie, we simply arent that good, if we were we would be able to dominate the odd game of football or at least look like the better of the two teams on show. Just imo naturally.

What fans? Shit support m'lord

Good :-) Friedel: 6 Nothing to do really Cuellar: 6 Dont really like him playing right back, he's too clunky or something Dunne: 7 very good debut Collins: 8 MOTM Even better debut! Warnock: 7 An improvement on Shorey defensively and got forward pretty well Young: 5 Apart form the free kick leading to teh goal another sub par performance Reo-Coker: 5 His worst performance this season so far Petrov: 6 Steady, better Sidwell: 7 Very good, involved throughout Milner: 4 WTF was that? Agbonlahor: 6 Extra mark for a well taken goal, had no support really Carew: 6 Made quite a difference when he came on It wasnt a very good performance at all really, bit of a scrappy win in a game that had 0-0 written all over it, but I'm not complaining. In the end the manager's decision to switch things around won the game against a tiring Birmingham team, so well done MON.

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