Who will be the next leader of the labour party ?

[Richard]

Do you suggest as a right wing tory

Am I? Does that mean all labour people are left wing? Interesting concept

Ian, I think you need to recognise, if you can, that things are not black and white and there are shades of grey

it's got a lot because it goes to your motivation in only posting in this thread alone after an absence of some months ...

And that has something to do with you because? It's called personal choice Ian, free will if you like, I know thats probably an alien concept in some left wing ideologies.

Now onto Brown , he'll be gone by Christmas the real question is whether the Labour party now have any decency left to do the honourable thing and have a General Election, after having 3 leaders in a litlle over 12 months

[ianrobo1]

so remind me about the election that the Tories had when Major took over ?

[Richard]

Sorry Ian but I do not think the two situations stand much comparison

[ianrobo1]

...this is not the time any party should want to take over because as can be seen with Lehman Brothers far too much is out of the governments hands

much is out of ther government's hands at the moment, in terms of the "credit crunch", yes.

But the CC/recession is widely expected to be short and sharp, and many experts predict it to not last more than another 6 months to 1 year.

GB still has well over a year to run, so i'd guess by the time of the next election, the economy will be in a far healthier position than we see today.

I think those taking over will not be in such a dire position as you make out.

maybe Jon but maybe not, I remeber when the credit crunch first started it would not be that bad and that was from economic advisors and now it is worse than it was and could get far worse before better. However the thing it has shown is the totall inabilityy of any government to influence things.

If the Federal reserve can not do anything no one can

[ianrobo1]

Sorry Ian but I do not think the two situations stand much comparison

you serious

a despised leader was sacked by her own party because they were afraid of a massive electoroal defeat, exactly the same as you paint it.

[Doug's_Missing_Wallet]

Nice sidestep of most of Richard's point Ian.

It's interesting to see that you seem to lay absolutely no blame whatsoever with Brown and his government for the current state of affairs. I presume you would have been equally charitable had it been a Tory government in power... After all, it's a worldwide problem and governments have no influence in it do they?

[Richard]

Not really. The Labour Party will have changed it's leader twice withing one parliament and not gone to the country. This after "annointing" Gordon Brown.

The Thatcher to John Major change is not comparable, especially as for the Conservatives had one leadership change in a parliament.

To lose one leader is unfortunate, to lose two.....

Sorry but three leaders in one parliament calls for a General Election. So yes I am serious, the two situations are somewhat different.

[ianrobo1]

Nice sidestep of most of Richard's point Ian.

It's interesting to see that you seem to lay absolutely no blame whatsoever with Brown and his government for the current state of affairs. I presume you would have been equally charitable had it been a Tory government in power... After all, it's a worldwide problem and governments have no influence in it do they?

correct

the Tories, Lib Dems, Labour, republicans, Democrats

not a single answer on how to stop this

federal reserve, tried and failed

BofE, tried and failed

on the margins they could something but thats it ...

you allow a free market free reign and this is what you get

[Richard]

you allow a free market free reign and this is what you get

But they dont Ian

[ianrobo1]

they do Richard, total and utter, the Stock market is allowed to do what it likes, finacial rules which do exist are to loose and even after the collapse of Barings little has been learnt.

In the States the government can not intervene the NYSE has far too much power and influence

but I guess from your comment you advocating a pure free market in which there are no government rules at all and somehow you think that would better ???

jeez and people want the Tories in, god help us

[Richard]

but I guess from your comment you advocating a pure free market in which there are no government rules at all and somehow you think that would better ???

Because that is exactly what I have said.

Ian I am sorry to have to tell you but I think you are wrong.

Yes there are "free" markets in the world, even some former communist countries are moving towards them actually, but they are very much influenced by the economic policies of governments, or else why have a government?

So in that regards your comment that "you allow a free market free reign and this is what you get " is incorrect.

[Doug's_Missing_Wallet]

Nice sidestep of most of Richard's point Ian.

It's interesting to see that you seem to lay absolutely no blame whatsoever with Brown and his government for the current state of affairs. I presume you would have been equally charitable had it been a Tory government in power... After all, it's a worldwide problem and governments have no influence in it do they?

correct

the Tories, Lib Dems, Labour, republicans, Democrats

not a single answer on how to stop this

federal reserve, tried and failed

BofE, tried and failed

on the margins they could something but thats it ...

you allow a free market free reign and this is what you get

I'm afraid I just don't agree. Are you seriously saying that America's ecconomy being in dire straits has got absolutely nothing to do with any of the shaven chimpanzees policies?

Same as here really, if it is all down to the 'free market' then surely the fearsome Chancellor, the most successful one we've ever had (Copyright: every single Labour MP to bleat out on demand when faced with a difficult question) would've had some foresight to protect us from it. He's had 11 years!

But it's not that bad I guess, we've always got our gold reserves and pensions to help us out. Oh...

[Richard]

Same as here really, if it is all down to the 'free market' then surely the fearsome Chancellor, the most successful one we've ever had (Copyright: every single Labour MP to bleat out on demand when faced with a difficult question) would've had some foresight to protect us from it. He's had 11 years

Or else that comment that comes from every single Labour MP is totally and utterly wrong and they have been lying?

[Doug's_Missing_Wallet]

Same as here really, if it is all down to the 'free market' then surely the fearsome Chancellor, the most successful one we've ever had (Copyright: every single Labour MP to bleat out on demand when faced with a difficult question) would've had some foresight to protect us from it. He's had 11 years

Or else that comment that comes from every single Labour MP is totally and utterly wrong and they have been lying?

A MP lying? Surely not!?!?

It is wrong, plainly, although I'm not sure it actually is lying. They repeat it so often and without any hesitation that it's almost like a mantra. It's a conditioned response to any difficult question. Repeat sentance a few dozen times, ignore question being asked, bury head in sand, hope it all goes away, repeat ad infinitum.

[ianrobo1]

Nice sidestep of most of Richard's point Ian.

It's interesting to see that you seem to lay absolutely no blame whatsoever with Brown and his government for the current state of affairs. I presume you would have been equally charitable had it been a Tory government in power... After all, it's a worldwide problem and governments have no influence in it do they?

correct

the Tories, Lib Dems, Labour, republicans, Democrats

not a single answer on how to stop this

federal reserve, tried and failed

BofE, tried and failed

on the margins they could something but thats it ...

you allow a free market free reign and this is what you get

I'm afraid I just don't agree. Are you seriously saying that America's ecconomy being in dire straits has got absolutely nothing to do with any of the shaven chimpanzees policies?

Same as here really, if it is all down to the 'free market' then surely the fearsome Chancellor, the most successful one we've ever had (Copyright: every single Labour MP to bleat out on demand when faced with a difficult question) would've had some foresight to protect us from it. He's had 11 years!

But it's not that bad I guess, we've always got our gold reserves and pensions to help us out. Oh...

for sure at the margins as I have said they made mistakes in the States, but the government did not (as far as I could see) influence whether banks lent money to people who simply should not have had it ?

in fact Richard wants far far less government influence on markets than we have now, they could lend to whoever with no rules around it ?

isn;t that how we got here

on top of this you have the oil price (abeith some 30% lower than peak) at still mopre than $100 a barrell, as I discussed many times this again was outside government influence ...

[Richard]

I think my post was a little tongue in cheek!

As to the next Leader I think Hutton has a good shout

[Richard]

in fact Richard wants far far less government influence on markets than we have now

Do I ?

[ianrobo1]

but I guess from your comment you advocating a pure free market in which there are no government rules at all and somehow you think that would better ???

Because that is exactly what I have said.

Ian I am sorry to have to tell you but I think you are wrong.

Yes there are "free" markets in the world, even some former communist countries are moving towards them actually, but they are very much influenced by the economic policies of governments, or else why have a government?

So in that regards your comment that "you allow a free market free reign and this is what you get " is incorrect.

not sure what you advocating at all Richard, is this tongue in cheek then ?

so where do you stand as quite a senior memeber of the Tory party then ?

How would you even try and fix this if you were in government now ?

what are your ideas ?

as the consumate polticain you no doubt are you seem to answer every point with another question. As an accountant you must have some ideas ?

would you interfer more in the free market, put more regulation in ? restrict debt ?

what ?

would yuou put less regulation on, let the market sort itself out ?

Do you think governments should intervene and stop banks failing ?

I mean you get no more a free market government than the current US one ...

[Richard]

so where do you stand as quite a senior memeber of the Tory party then ?

Thanks for elevating my position Ian. I am not senior at all. nowhere near any upper echelons, regardless of how many times you try and say it

[Gringo]

on top of this you have the oil price (abeith some 30% lower than peak) at still mopre than $100 a barrell, as I discussed many times this again was outside government influence ...

Apart from bombing the suppliers of course which set the whol price spiralling bandwagon on it's way.