Muller Yogurt Long Sleever

Evening all. I had furious Friday, sad Saturday but trying to be optimistic, straw-clutching Sunday. Anger, denial, nowhere near acceptance but looking for a glimmer of hope in these difficult times for us. So kick your shoes off, pop up on the couch and see if you get anything out of it. This thread is called Future Club Crest and Brand Identity, but broadly deals with crests/badges and not so much the context or application. Although I fully stand by this new crest being badly flawed and 100% want it re-addressed if at all possible, but if it has been committed to and we’re stuck with it, it may not be all bad if we build good things out of it, around it and with it. Any brand identity is a sum of parts, often with a family of logo variations. Granted, the primary version (eg.our crest) is the most seen element and should be the hero - ours is dodgy, which is a real shame. But then there’s secondary versions (others have spoken about the Liverpool full club crest vs simple liver bird, for example). Plus colours, typography, graphics etc - simple, coherent elements that can be used flexibly. So, with the basic ‘design’ on the table, I give you some examples of a wider identity that could spill out of where we’re at, with some secondary versions of the crest that could fit different purposes and formats. It appears the club font created by Dragon Rouge is staying, which is decent I think, and there’s a lion-inspired pattern in there. The optimistic part of me is saying that at some stage, common sense and taste will prevail and the colours sorted, the drop shadow dropped. We still have the basic design registered, which in mono colour, isn’t as bad, so could be re-coloured. Things that are changed regularly could then be updated relatively easily, eg. anything digital, social media, TV, kits, merchandise, ticket designs. Not so much any big snazzy 3D signage. No faith whatsoever it’ll happen given the standard of the crest design, but hey ho. Some would call it turd polishing, or clutching at straws - much like a lion fumbles for a star - but that’s today’s little dose of semi-positive thinking. That’s all. Whisky, snacks and medication will be served in the lobby. (I don’t mean have ALL of these variations, or pick your favourites, it’s just to show the principle.)

From 'hate' to 'like' with a simple re-arrangement and the new, better-defined lion. This is how to make it work, and the fact that others have suggested and shown essentially the same re-arrangement says a lot. It is now balanced and looks professional. (Saying that, the star still feels odd where it is, and since someone on here mentioned Scooby-Doo chasing a star I always get that sound effect in my head. Stick it above the crest or drop it.) Although it's not where I'd have personally gone, given where we are, I'd be happy with this. There's always going to be a bad taste left in the mouth because of what's gone down with the process - that ship has sailed - but it's more likely to die down over time with something that feels balanced. This could last for years IMHO, whereas if the version on the table goes ahead as is, it'll continue to broadly get hammered and force another run at it. There you go Mr.Heck, it's been sorted, bit of common sense compromise?

Absolutely not the case my friend - there's always an instinctive emotional reaction but it's a considered opinion. I'd probably take the new lion which has more definition, but to me the 'new' badge just fundamentally doesn't balance and the drop shadow does not save things. I think it's fixable but not having it as it is! Lerner elements sit more comfortably to my eyes (not that old Randy made it.) But we don't have to agree, it would be a weird world if we all did!

Working in design and as a Villa fan, the brand identity means a huge amount and it would be a privilege to work on it. That’s why a lot of us can’t (and rightly won’t) let it lie. So a rant, albeit hopefully a constructive one. Looking back on the last two goes at it: The previous 2015/2016 version - by a top tier design agency with football club creds, almost certainly working with limitations of an evolution brief, with fan input. Not sure why the colours weren’t sorted, and the ‘Lerner’ crest certainly wasn’t universally liked; but the full lion was beautifully crafted (not so good in 2D), there was a bespoke font and iconography with claw marks and as a coherent body of work, it mostly worked. Elegant, heritage-based, but modern. Last year’s version - by a top tier design agency with football club creds, I assume working with a more open-minded brief but with fan feedback about elements, which would seem to have limited their thinking and scope somewhat. A well-drawn 2D lion, nicely crafted typeface, presented in two shape options. Fan vote was round badge - and overall it’s well-executed and works. Classic but modern. (Despite me thinking a circle isn’t right for us, but that’s just opinion.) Both would’ve come at considerable cost (although probably half of Lucas Digne’s weekly wage. Player budget vs marking budget are in different galaxies though.) But now we’re apparently being presented with something that isn’t fit for purpose nor befitting the prestige it deserves. People joke about it being made in Microsoft Paint but the crest we’re seeing, if real, is fundamentally unprofessional - cobbled together with elements from the last two efforts within a new crest shape. Arranged awkwardly and trying to solve the colour issue with a chunky drop shadow. If it’s a cost cutting exercise, there’s a good chance it was done in-house or by a cheaper-option contact, as has been suggested. (That’s not a slur on any design resource at the club, I don’t know them, their level, nor their brief; nor indeed if this is what’s happened. Nor do I know Mr.Heck, who has presumably directed and approved the alleged result. Just speculating due to the below-par execution.) All I can say is if what we’re seeing is true, it’s frustratingly not good enough. Despite my preference to not have a round badge, I’d take it all day long over what we’re apparently getting. It’ll be very interesting to see if there’s a wider set of assets released alongside the alleged new crest, such as the font and any other bits from this year’s agency effort. It may slightly rescue things. I’ve always thought the best way to do these very challenging projects is to allow a good agency to run the process, of gleaning a decent amount of fan feedback and insight to develop a solution. But from being involved in this forum, I think there’s a clear case for designer fans with the knowledge, insight and talent to collaborate on such things (as has been suggested). There are clearly people on here (doing some lovely things purely as a passion project. How cost-friendly is that?! Bound to be the same at other clubs. - AAANNNND ANOTHER THING - apart from the overall quality of design, something that really grinds my gears is that with a brand refresh coming at the same time as the 150 year anniversary, it was an opportunity to incorporate it in a new visual identity, then proudly move forward with our shiny new look. Yes the 150 is a temporary one-off, but the fact that it seemingly has no correlation whatsoever with the badge stylistically feels wrong (aside from it also being fairly illegible). - I had high hopes for Mr.Heck and have to admit I was glad things were going back to the drawing board - but again, that’s personal opinion about the brand, and a separate conversation. There was a coincidental crossover of people at the helm (Purslow-Heck), and I wanted to trust that we had someone who’d steer it in a more innovative, ownable direction whilst respecting fans and history, as much as it wasn’t a great look to change course. On the evidence so far, this is not the case. I hate being negative and don’t want to sound preachy, but it’s born out of passion and therefore frustrating. It’s mostly opinions, but they come from a decent amount of knowledge and experience. Our identity is for us to own and love, and how we present ourselves to the world. Any re-brand, re-fresh, logo change or whatever, at least needs a sound reason as well as being well executed. Not everyone will love the outcome, but at least have those. Where we allegedly are would seem to cancel any reason because it now looks like change for change’s sake, as well as being poorly made. So despite the messy process it has been, I’d rather go again and achieve something befitting of our great club. Right now it’s either have something crap which was the result of a less than ideal process, and will be largely disliked moving forward (on the evidence I’ve seen) and probably result in having to do it again sooner rather than later; vs. have something that the majority think looks great and lasts for decades, with the crap process becoming a historical footnote. (Or simply leave it at what you invested in last year.) Full judgement reserved until when things are officially released. This may well have been another pointless outburst. But on the off-chance the club are reading through this stuff - please let us help you fix it. The reactions are because this really matters. Hey we played a game of football today didn’t we?

I'd take the last 'Lerner' badge over the alleged new, cobbled together, imbalanced thing any day. And can confidently say I'm regarded as a good designer.

And if used with some nice toys as a wider brand identity, it could be alright...ish. (Don't have to agree they're nice, it's just a principle.) God I need some sleep

To expand on earlier point, if they just sorted the colours and re-arranged the elements in the new thing, I think it'd be....OK. For example

Flipping the lion is actually one thing I have no issue with (the way it originally faced, and looking conventionally forward).

And just for sh*ts and giggles, some heritage-inspired modern-ish kits with fantasy, local shirt sponsors

Then on some social

What the heck (pun not intended but taking it) - built out a recent post a bit, to try build a brand world that does both heritage and modern.To be fair, IF the new/leaked/fake thing was sorted in terms of colour and composition, it could work, with a decent, coherent set of toys to use with it. But I haven't made that because I'm pretending it doesn't exist as things stand. So here's a thing, and the thing on some merch:

To be honest I'd rather us pull a Juve and do something new, than look amateur to the world. Their rebrand a few years back was controversial but was at least ownable and well-made as a body of identity work. (Ideally just a **** well-designed Aston Villa lion rampant badge with a little something something to stand us apart though please.) That's it now. High horse is knackered.

With so many both emotive and rational comments, here's the thing - so much of design is opinion, but there are rules and best practise. With our badge, the more subjective things include: which way the lion faces; whether it's AVFC or Aston Villa; whether it should say 'football club', or nothing at all; whether it should have a star and/or 1874; if it should be a circle, crest or other shape; (although I believe there's a strong rationale for not being a circle in terms of brand identity and competitors, but that's essentially still opinion). These are the type of things people believe are right or wrong, sh*t or brilliant, or one thing better than something else. More objective, best practice things include the colour way needing to have contrast to be scalable (unless you have a rare type of colour blindness); the composition being balanced (unless it's edgy/disruptive/controversial design which I think we'd agree this isn't about); being authentic for its audience, practical in how it will be produced, and made for the long-term. I think what's been leaked has the basic elements to work, if the colours and composition were sorted (and in my opinion, used the newer lion). Don't particularly like it, but it could at least work. As other fine folk on here have demonstrated. Not an expert on the trademark side but I believe you can just TM the elements, so am clinging to the hope it can be sorted. OR that it's completely fake, in which case I may as well have been out badger watching or some such, instead of writing this. Now shutting up about the whole thing and waiting to see what happens, through squinty eyes...

Know I'm in the minority but always liked it, just needs colours sorting.

(if someone's on the wind up, fair play, I think it's close but improved with tweaking!)

So frustrating, if this is it. I think the elements are right, not bothered about which way the lion faces anymore, but: a) as others have said, the main crest issue was always yellow on blue, and a drop shadow is a crap solution for that; and b) the composition of elements is off, it's unbalanced. I don't have the font so this is a bit botched, but in my opinion, you do this and we're good (similar to what I posted recently, so annoying that it's close!)

Appreciate the comments, thanks all. Obviously the colours are subjective and may be showing up differently on different screens - I've just gone with my preference of a core mix that I think lets us do heritage and more modern vibrancy. Which I've just realised pretty much match the circa 1994 scarf I wore to the match today. Graham Fenton vibes. Always been in the crest-over-circle camp - I could get into an A and V angular brand identity rant, how I think we should always have a V-neck shirt.. but we've all got lives to lead. I do think they were on to something with the gas lamp design, just didn't like the execution. And I'm all for the lion facing right - progression! Ultimately just want our beautiful club to have a confident, authentic, ownable visual identity deserving of it, both for generations of fans and for our global profile. It's tough and not everyone will agree on it, I hope whatever is being lined up is something the majority of us can get behind.

Zero point in this but what the hey, it's a slow day. Maybe we could have it for a couple of weeks mid-January

I was at Villa Park as a teenager the last time we beat them, to think this is the first time since is ridiculous (and by the same score). Whatever comes of the Emery era, he will always be the one to have lifted the curse! In other news, I hope and believe we will now see the Leon Bailey we thought we'd signed. He needs belief, direction and probably a bit of beef, but holy sh*t in a victorian bathing costume, the boy has talent.

From being disappointed to the point of not really caring, this simple change would swing it for me - the gold lion feels right., and grander. Always thought the current badge could be fixed with the same colour theory (claret background). Not expecting the club to make tweaks from the 2 options, but bravo nonetheless sir.

Working in design, it can be annoying when clients want a hybrid of different options. However in this case, would this not sort the issue? The things most fans want to see, without subjective shapes..

That is exactly the one. Our new badge will be animated, with Shaggy following the lion saying 'zoinks' or some such

I also can't shake the image of the lion fumbling about chasing a floating star, since someone pointed it out a while ago. There's even a cartoon sound effect with it. In my brain anyway

I'd love us to be confident enough to just have the lion. It'd be a bold move but would pick up traction over time