MotoMkali

10 minutes ago, romavillan said:

Why does 4-3-3 suddenly mean you need amazing players? It's the dutch/spanish/italian/german 4-4-2, just basic staple formation. 

It doesn't require amazing players but I requires lots of off the ball movement to take advantage of the extra man in the middle currently we are not doing that and because of that we are struggling. 

1 hour ago, Sam-AVFC said:

Stats put us 12th for 'big chances'. God knows how they measure these things, but I'd expect us to be even higher in the list than 12th overall chances as we do have so many that break down or turn into half chances.

Taking into account the team is very much still gelling together, I think this is OK. It's only the fact we're conceding too many as our balance isn't quite there.

Yeah but you can't get big chances if you can't get the ball in position to create them. I think it is due to the fact that we make sloppy mistakes in the middle of the park (helps us concede them as well) but @KenjiOgiwara thinks that it is because we lack the final ball. 

1 hour ago, Laughable Chimp said:

I generally agree with you on the El Ghazi point.

But as for Wesley, remove the Norwich game from the equation because that game was an incredible anomaly and is not representative at all of how he usually plays. The criticism that about how its playing with 10 men with him is in reference to his usual game, which is worlds away from that one game.

Without that game, Wesley has 2 goals and 0 assists out of 12 goals we've scored. 

For every footballer that looked shit at Wesley's level of development and then turned out to be world class there are also many footballers that looked shit at Wesley's level of development and continued to be shit for the rest of their career. Which is why I find the whole, listing all the players who were initially shit at Wesley's level of development and then became good whether it be age or time as a professional footballer, whichever suits the narrative more, to be a garbage argument.

My point wasn't that he will or won't be great it was that throwing him under the bus at this point in his career is ridiculous. He is the equivalent of probably a 17 or 18 year old in terms of technical ability. Also aside from his 2 goals (excluding Norwich game) wesley got a pass to assist at Brighton, Everton and held off Davison sanchez for mcginns goal. In other words excluding the Norwich game he has been a key piece in 42% of our goals and if you exclude set pieces that is the equivalent of 50% contribution rate which in my books is pretty good. Once again completely underselling what he has contributed to our campaign. Let's face it we have been generally poor when getting the ball up the pitch and too our players feet in dangerous positions. Against wolves wesley probably got the ball what 3 or 4 times in their final third and only once in a good position for a shot (twice if you count the ball he couldn't quite get on) which I'm sorry whilst he should have hit the target was a pretty good effort. 

40 minutes ago, TRO said:

I accept that its likely to see more warts with your own team as you see them more often.....I make much of my judgement on when I see teams play us... along with highlights of other games.

I also accept that errors are forced or unforced......Personally, I don't think we make that many unforced errors such has quality improved.....I thin we are more suseptible to forced errors, but that is to our credit.

We will agree to disagree on the Bournemouth game.....I don't think Heaton would have made that error without the initiative from Calum Wilson or Josh King can't remember....chasing down.

Heaton should not have made that error. No professional keeper would. King was about 5 yards from the ball when Heaton was a foot away. If he just went in with gumption he easily gets the ball and the game is a different complexion. On top of that Phillip billing should have been sent off and whilst we don't have a great record against 10 men Bournemouth played the same way as they would have with 10.

Aside from that we have constant unforced errors and we need to do much better as a team in retaining the ball. They are mostly unforced due to our lack of movement and predictable nature of we try and play it out from the back. It either goes out wide or we hoof it. So wingers can gamble on the passing lanes and will frequently come out with the ball. This is what happened against wolves and Brighton with Gross' shit shot and I'm sure plenty of other times that I can't remember. 

16 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

I can't agree with anything you're saying MM. Not a slight on you, just we all see things differently. 

Wesley just looks downright poor and all these people asking for a change of tactics in order to accomodate him need to wise up. We argued this with Scott Hogan for months until he found his level on the bench of a struggling championship team. What are these change in tactics exactly? Do we have to put it on a plate for him 5 yards out for him to score? If so, let's just get Billy Sharp in. His all round game just looks awful. Is it not too much to ask for a striker that can dribble, head the ball and shoot? Is it? When's the last time Wesley received the ball on the edge of the box, created a yard of space for a shot and tested the keeper? He has never done this and because he doesn't are we supposed to blame the players around him? I don't remember people saying we needed to change our tactics when Abraham was in the team and that's because he was a good player. He was sharp and he made things happen for himself. 

El Ghazi. Another player who has been largely poor during his time here. He isn't good enough, he just isn't. He has one decent game in 5 and the rest of the time we're left sat thinking 'why isn't Trez' playing. I can count the amount of good games I've seen him play on one hand for Villa and if we ever have any morsel of ambition to push on in the premier league, players like him need to be squad players at best.

I sound extremely negative which isn't a fair reflection on my opinion of Dean Smith and the current Villa squad. I love some of our players. Heaton, Guilbert, Nakamba, Engels, McGinn, Grealish, Mings all look like fantastic players and good enough for this league. Then you have the likes of Targett, Luiz and Hourihane who are likeable characters and each offer something. I think we're in a good place on the whole and I'm not 'forgetting where we were this time last year'. 

Our forward players just arent good enough. Wesley, Trezeguet, Jota, El Ghazi. They're the reason we'll go down if we do. We desperately need to get to Jan and bring in at least another winger and 1 striker to replace what we currently have as we're lacking in this area entirely.

UTV

 

First of all el ghazi has already had 4+ good games this year in the prem in 10. Which isn't bad considering if you want a winger to be good every game you have to sign heung min son or raheem sterling. Was good against arsenal (got an assist and was among our most dangerous players going forward), Norwich (obviously), wolves by far our best player with nakamba and if others had been on the ball we could have easily got a result, Liverpool 85 brilliant minutes of creating chances and tracking back with 1 lapse in error that plenty of full backs would make let alone an attacking minded winger, and obviously last 20 minutes against Everton and was the only player who wanted anything too happen.

Wesley has had 3 good games this year which obviously isn't much but in those games we rarely played long balls (which we have begun to do constantly) players were close to him and running in behind and he either received the ball to feet or for him to run onto. We haven't been doing that the rest of the season and that gives me reason to believe that unlike Hogan we aren't playing to his strengths. Hogan never had a good game for us and was a waster. Wesley on the other hand is a hard worker otherwise he wouldn't be where he is today who is still in his formative stages as football player. Most players at his age have been in professional academies for at least 12 years (Jack has been at villa for nearly 20 years) wesley on the other hand is behind by about 5 years on a player like keinan so he is not likely to have the same level of skills as them however he has great finishing ability inside 12 yards and has been a key player in 7 or 8 of our 17 goals so that is pretty good contribution from a player who people say we may as well be playing with 10 men.

Edit: At 7 years into his footballing career Jamie Carragher was still playing as a striker and what he is probably one of the best ever England defender and certainly one of the best of the premier league era. 

42 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

We need a winger, we need a forward, we need better central midfield options off the bench, we need better back up at the back, we need a lot but a winger and a forward are joint number one priority.

Winger/forward combo for me. El ghazi is a good enough winger. Most games he won't do much but when he does do something we tend to have easy victories because he is probably our only player who doesn't rely on jack to create for him. Plus I think wes will do better with a change in tactics so he plays more of a false 9 than target man like he did at brugge.

After that I would like us to sign a true box to box midfielder with size and pace. Currently there could be quite a few options berge and kessie as well as someone like exequiel palacios from a Brazilian side. 

44 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

We've scored a decent amount from crosses this season, two v Burnley, the McGinn one at Arsenal, Jack v Brighton, Wesley scored a few tap ins from them I think, Trez v Liverpool. No better or wose than majority of teams in the league.

None were headers though. They were low bouncing balls that our attackers could volley in or the defenders struggled to deal with. We currently do not have the size note the skill in the air to be playing high crosses into the box. The only 'proper' cross was against Norwich where wes chested the ball down and turned and finished. 

10 hours ago, Villarocker said:

Before or after Luiz, Targett, Guilbert, Wesley, Jota, Lansbury, Hourihane, Steer, Nyland, Taylor, the list goes on! 

He's young, new to the proposed hardest league in world football and he has a couple of goals in a handful of starts. Why give him one season so soon after he's started a career with us? 

Some people expect miracles. 

Steer targett and guilbert are all good enough for me. Wesley is also good enough as a back up and probably as a main striker once he has refined his craft. 

12 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

You know, I'd like to think Dean has wisened up after every match but have so far yet to be convinced that he has. Even in our wins against so called easier opposition in Brighton and Norwich we conceded 20 or more shots to the opposition, and I doubt that's gonna change anytime soon.

Also, interesting tidbit I just noticed. Our expected goals conceded from open play is 6 more than our actual amount of goals conceded from open play. To put that into perspective, that means with the chances we've been conceding, we should have conceded 6 more goals from open play. That's a very large difference, wouldn't be surprised if its the largest in the league and its probably the reason why our expected points seem so low. Thing is, it implies we've been pretty lucky or our last ditch defending has been pretty great. Either way, I don't expect that difference to remain like that unless there's a drastic change in how we play and we're eventually gonna come into a game and just get battered by a side that happens to be lucky and super clinical on that day and suddenly, our goal difference isn't' going to look that great.

We seem to concede a lot of long range shots so a lot of them get blocked but because we have probably conceded somewhere in the region of 80-100 long shots it equates to around that amount of goals. 

37 minutes ago, Villarocker said:

Everton would be too but it didn't stop us winning that one. 

Not sure what you mean? 

2 hours ago, danceoftheshamen said:

Wesley will come good, he is still young & will learn. He took one huge step up from the Belgian League to what is a very tough Premier League this season. Continued coaching and mixing with the Brazil squad & coaches will gradually strengthen his game of that i'm sure.

However...

I feel it was very unfair to expect him & Kienan to hold the fort this season. They are surely both back up/secondary strikers to the main man we for some reason didn't sign. I fear it could cost us dearly come the end of the season.

Having said that & very bizarrely, scoring goals doesn't appear to be our issue. It appears to be the mental switch offs which happen resulting in late goals against. If it wasn't for that we would be very comfortable in the table at present. This for me is caused by a basic inability to keep hold of the ball & game management leading eventually to a mental pressure overload and thus basic mistakes creep in.

It is easier to switch off when you are pinned back we need to calm down in possession and not just hoof shit balls that bounce straight back at us. It was what happened for arsenal's first goal engels tried to do a weird clearance guendouzi intercepted it and won a penalty. We need more composure late in games. 

2 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

Agreed. Let’s blame everyone else. It has nothing to do with the fact the bloke can’t dribble, shoot, beat a man, win a header or control the ball. Why on earth would we ever blame him.

Its just like the situation with super Scotty Hogan, whom I may add, is world class. If we had played to his strengths, there is no way he would be struggling to get a game at Stoke now. 

Wesley is great and everyone else should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

Great comedy mate. The difference between wes and Hogan is Wesley can actually finish his dinner when he has had good chances he has generally finished well. I personally don't think we are playing to his or our own strengths. Our off the ball movement is trash and it causes us to really struggle without grealish. Everyone could see mcginn was basically playing striker against wolves and it left our midfield very isolated. Mcginn needs to play deeper so we actually keep possession.

Wesley needs to drop deeper as well so he can receive the ball and play it off to another player. But I don't blame him for supposedly poor hold up play when what he is supposed to be holding up has been kicked 20 yards away. We need interplay not isolation. As it is right now I don't think ronaldo/aguero/Kane (though they maybe would be on 5 because they would have scored the penalty) would have scored anymore goals because in the games we have given wesley good balls and link up play he has either scored or been a key contributor towards our goals.

25 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

We aren't struggling to create at all. We create plenty.  We just need better delivery and finishing and we are where we wanna be. 

Disagree. Our build up play is very poor. This leaves us very vulnerable to losing the ball in the middle of the park which gives high quality chances to the opposition. Once we do get there we can create a lot of chances but against quality opposition like City, Liverpool and Leicester we will struggle to get out from our own box as it is. 

11 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Nah that's not a must. We're not coached by Sam Allerdyce. 

We can compete with our current central midfield, but we really lack quality in terms of delivery from the wings and in front of goal. 

Lets not create problems that doesn't exist. 

Fwiw I think McGinn has beem rather good this season. Which is why he's continously linked to Man Utd. He might not tear it up like last year, and he might have poor matches now and then, but saying he's been poor or struggling is way off. 

The reason we are struggling because we need better link up play in midfield. You don't just want a big lump who's only attribute is his size. You won't one who can run for days and is good enough on the ball that it means if a defender comes near them they are just as likely to hold them off as to skin them or play a lovely 1-2.

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

I hope we sign some players with some battling qualities.....players, who can give you something when the chips are down.

Its all very well having moments in a game and flashes of talent, sure we all love that.....but We want/Need 90 minuters who can help you stay in a game and grind down the opposition.

 

 

Definitely agree our midfield gets exhausted and run off the pitch by 60 minutes especially mcginn. I also think we need to look at a 6'0+ midfielder who can win aerial balls and bully lads. 

1 minute ago, Czechlad said:

Libor Kozak had a better strike rate than Wesley at basically the same age, and Kozak is regarded as a shit signing on here. Kozak also was much better at holding up the ball, and played with a lot worse players than what we have now. 

Wesley is really struggling. 

Thing is Wesley isnt a target man/hold up striker. He needs to drop deep and support the midfield with runners in behind. However we currently do not have the movement to support this especially mcginn who never comes short so we can have nice interplay. It leads to very predictable balls out wide to our fullbacks which wolves read very easily and won. 3 or 4 good attempts came from this and if jimenez was playing better we could have been down 4 by the half time whistle. Currently wes isn't performing because of our tactics and I don't think he should be blamed for it. 

6 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Watford are 10th in the PL table in terms of expected points this season, far higher than us. They should be far higher up the table than they actually are but for some reason, are not. I think we would be wise not to underestimate them.

 

The reason we are lower than them in expected points is because of the last 20 minutes of spurs, arsenal and Burnley etc. We sat back and let them have 20 shots. Against a team like Watford I think we are less likely to do that and potentially we may have changed tactics or Dean has wised up to the fact that he can use substitions before the opponents have scored multiple times. 

Trez has been lucky with his goals both going though the keepers legs. That being said he has bee alright. Obviously not good enough to replace grealish but was probably our 3rd or 4th best player behind nakamba and el ghazi on Sunday. Got unlucky with el ghazi ball through Johnny made an excellent tackle and on another day could have been a penalty. 

14 hours ago, VillaChris said:

Get the injured players back and we can get 5-6 points from that run up to Sheffield united imo. It will require beating Newcastle to set us off again as Useless says.

Not an amazing haul but look at it this way, 5 points takes us to 16 points. Two wins v Norwich and Southampton and two draws at Watford and Burnley would have us on 24 points on New years day.

We'd only need then 14 points in second half of the season to be reasonably sure of staying up.

Way I'm looking at it now we need to be on miminum of 20 points on New Years day. I think in two of the Lambert seasons we were around that points total at new year. We only just stayed up in all three seasons so would be tough if we didn't even have that especially as we were on 11 points by mid October. 9 games to do it.

I don't see us drawing with Watford. They are crap even if they have troy deeney. I think we should be able to smack them if we are fully fit. 

1 hour ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Completely agree MM. A player that could tick both boxes would be ideal. And especially one with pace to burn. A younger Henry would be lovely. 

Well no doubt getting an Henry esque player would be great but I'd settle for someone as good as hazard. 

On 10/11/2019 at 16:00, KenjiOgiwara said:

We obviously need a striker and a winger. But I am gonna add a left back. Players like Taylor is how you get relegated. 

I think we need a striker winger hybrid and not 2 new players. 1 because I think a change in tactics would do both wes and el ghazi a world of good. I think we should play El ghazi like Liverpool play Salah. Keep him up top ready for the counter and have wesley drop deeper and cover. You could also rotate it so it keeps the defenders on their toes but I think mainly it will help wesley get on the ball more and will make us more dangerous on the counter attack with a good 1v1 finisher who is fast on their last man.

Edit: To be clear I think we need another midfielder especially one with good energy, strength and speed. The ideal player for this would be Van Der Beek but he is too expensive so maybe someone like Berge from Genk or Kessie from AC Milan could be interesting as they would make us more solid defensively, help us keep the ball and be a threat from set pieces which we are very weak at. Plus it means you can put luxury players on against tired defenses and they can use their skill to pick passes but won't be bullied off the ball because they aren't fast or strong enough. 

8 hours ago, zab6359 said:

Lost me at targett and Taylor as "wingers"

Whoops guilbert must have mistyped. 

Maybe 4-1-2-1-2 for me el ghazi has to play. Have konsa as the deeeep midfielder so he can add support to either defense or midfield when necessary. I just think against Newcastle you have to have a threat from range and I think el ghazi is our only player who offers that except for hourihane who incidentally I would start over mcginn. For 2 reasons one imagine a fully legged mcginn against tired and shit opposition 2 mcginn has been flat out dreadful and should not play another full 90 minutes for 3 games because he is clearly too tired whether that means he doesn't start in some of them or is subbed earlier doesn't really matter but for me he is our biggest problem in holding on to late leads. Can't close down the opposition which gives them easy opportunities through our midfield has happened constantly and his shit pass cost us on Sunday.

Some may think playing 4-1-2-1-2 is very negative but think of it as 4-4-2 with nakamba and konsa as "full backs" and targett and Taylor as "wingers" . Would give us more solidity in the middle and if wesley drops deeper as well we could have 3 in the centre and 2 out wide still when defending. 

3 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

But we appear to be set up to do this a lot. I'm not sure where the keep ball, high press mentality as gone. Perhaps we're just no where near good enough to execute that sort of plan.

You don't have to be good to do it. You just need good off the ball movement and patience. That is all effort and sadly at the moment we don't seem to be able to do that. 

1 hour ago, HeyAnty said:

Its not the balls that are crossed into him im generally talking about but he is shocking at them to. 

Sometime to relieve pressure a team, will play a long ball up the field.  Our defense and midfield dont have that option because it will be coming straight back at them.  When you play one man up front like we do, his primary goal is to hold it up and let players get up along side him.  He isn't capable of it.

P.s im not advocating becoming a long ball team, but even the best teams use a long ball now and again when they are under the cosh.  Very easy to pressure a team when you know they will be very reluctant to kick it long.

The thing is though we are currently a long ball team and we just aren't very good at it. Seriously in the last 5 games I haven't seen a single long ball that I think anyone in football could have won. Seriously they are all 20 yards away from him and we complain when he doesn't win it. Winning long balls is 90% positioning and currently wesley doesnt have time to get over to where the ball will land and out muscle the defender to get in a good position when he does get there he often ends up being pushed as the ball comes down basically making it impossible to control.