Brumerican

I actually came to believe in the Bible because of the flood legends found in places where tribes had never seen the sea as in North American tribes and in regions of the Himalayas. I became fascinated by Anti Deluvian ancient history and beyond. The Bible goes to great lengths to list both the genealogies from Adam...going through to Noah ..right down to Jesus.

Depending on which Gospel you read, you get a completely different genealogy from Abraham to Jesus. Why is that Julie?

How can you consider the gospels to be an accurate eyewitness account of Jesus' death and resurrection, when they werent even written down until between 30 and 70 years after his death!

Why havent you replied to my post where I provided a link, from a Biblical expert , that shows that the word you thought meant orb, actually meant circle?

Why are there no records in Egyptology, of there ever been a sizeable tribe of Israelites in Egypt?

Why are the 10 commandments, practically copied word for word from the Egyptian book of the dead?

Why can people still believe In Adam and Eve as literal, when the evidence that we descended from other bi-pedal animals is OVERWHELMING. And I mean overwhelming! This isnt even disputed anymore amongst science.

Why are there so many countless contradictions in such an "important" book?

Why doesnt God heal amputees? You always hear of cancer victims being saved by prayer, but not one single amputee, believer or not, has ever had a missing limb re-generate?

Why is the bible more believeable than the Quran?

Didn't Adam and Eve have two sons, Cain and Abel?

And if so, how did the human race continue, unless one of them impregnated their mum?

And how does it explain racial diversity?

Good point, but I was angling more at the moral issue. Pretty sure God might have been further pissed off with them after kicking their asses out of Eden.

"There you go, that'll teach you to disobey me."

"Oh yeah? Watch this. Come here son."

I get what youre saying I think.

Basically Adam and Eve **** everything up for the rest of us and their reward is a bit of incest.

Didn't Adam and Eve have two sons, Cain and Abel?

And if so, how did the human race continue, unless one of them impregnated their mum?

And how does it explain racial diversity?

So you believe Adam and Eve existed? Goodbye credibility

So thereby from my post regarding Newsweek and Time Magazine..do they lose all credibility also??!!!

Definitely

So you believe Adam and Eve existed?

In 1988, Newsweek magazine presented those findings in a report entitled “The Search for Adam and Eve.” Those studies were based on a type of mitochondrial DNA, genetic material passed on only by the female. Reports in 1995 about research on male DNA point to the same conclusion—that “there was an ancestral ‘Adam,’ whose genetic material on the [Y] chromosome is common to every man now on earth,” as Time magazine put it. Whether those findings are accurate in every detail or not, they illustrate that the history we find in Genesis is highly credible, being authored by One who was on the scene at the time.

1988!!!!! Lmfao

Seriously

Newsweek magazine?????? LMFAO

Where are the peer reviewed , scientific documents?

Please stop embarrassing yourself with arguments that would get laughed at even on answersingenesis.com.

Please don't take this as anything personal, Julie, but repetition of a story neither makes it more plausible nor more true and it certainly goes no way to explaining it or to countering a question that springs out of that story.

No then we'll have to agree to disagree. I was saying that God creation's were created perfect, the fact that they could become imperfect does not necessarily mean their Creator got it wrong. God's sovereignty was questioned and he has the right to answer that in the way he sees fit surely?

If God is responsible for the evil and sent Jesus along to correct things then it would suggest that he made a bit of a cock up, wouldn't it?

That would suggest that he is not perfect.

Again a similar response to above. What you seem to be saying is that in your opinion God should have made everything perfect if he exists?

No one should have the free will to make a choice. But then I see things differently to you.

If god wasnt imaginary, then he'd be rubbish anyway. The great flood of Noah is basically god shaking his Etch-a-sketch and starting over again. Hardly the work of an omipotent, omniscient being is it?

No I'm sorry...I don't agree with this...

I am not surprised by that.

Adam and Eve were created perfect...however they were not created robots he tested them and told them that if they failed the test they would die...they chose to folllow a spirit creature that questioned God's authority over them and also said God had lied to them and said they positively would not die.

Please don't take this as anything personal, Julie, but repetition of a story neither makes it more plausible nor more true and it certainly goes no way to explaining it or to countering a question that springs out of that story.

The Bible calls God a Heavenly Father so I don't think it is ridiculous to liken his authority and their free will to a father with his children.

The bible may call him a 'heavenly father' just because it uses the same word does not mean that the comparison is actually worthwhile.

In order for it to be so then each and every single parent would have to go about the creation of each and every child from the very beginning and I am not talking from the moment of physical conception.

They would have to design every detail of the child down to the molecular level.

They would need to understand how to do it, how everything interacts, what the consequences of all of their designs will be. Indeed they would need to be like a god-style creator rather than two creatures who take part in a process.

God did indeed take responsibility for the Evil

If God is responsible for the evil and sent Jesus along to correct things then it would suggest that he made a bit of a cock up, wouldn't it?

That would suggest that he is not perfect.

So we have an imperfect God who chooses not to exercise his omnipotence to correct the error he made and also chooses to ignore the fruits of his omniscience in order to judge mankind for carrying out the actions that God knew all along were going to be made.

Couldnt agree more fella, but rarely will a religious person actually sit back and think about it rationally.

Sorry to cut out all the rest of your quote but I just wanted to highlight this and I did read the whole post. Seeing as he's believed to been brought up by egyptians, who "knew" this whole thing about the world being round, not flat, he might've been told by them, right? Just hypothically, do you think they could've learned him about this?

Yes he was bought up as an Egyptian and a very learned one in the house of Pharaoh.. Which was my retort to the Bible being written by a bunch of Bronze Age Farmers...... I will try and do some research on this point about the Egyptians believing the Earth was round and come back to you, I only know their associations with Sun and Moon, which they depicted as being round. If we take that Moses took a good guess then it still doesn't explain his use of the Hebrew word meaning "Orb" and it doesn't explain (Job 26:7) . . ."He is stretching out the north over the empty place, Hanging the earth upon nothing." Would be interesting to research what the Egyptian beleifs were on Creation also.

Getting a bit tired of you clinging on to that "orb" defense.

Question To Jim Miller (http://www.allexperts.com/ep/1654-691/Bible-Studies/Jim-Miller.htm)

In Isaiah 40:22, "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers...."

now I was told by my friend who is a Rabbi, that the Hebrew word for the place of circle-is one i cant pronounce or spell, sorry- but the hebrew word means sphere, or orb, possibly globe in out language. Can you concur? and how did the idea of the Earth as a circle or orb could be revealed to men of that time? Unless alittle secret said by God? Thank you for your time.

The word is chug (the "ch" pronounced like in loch or Bach). The cognate verb means "to draw a circle." The noun means circle, or horizon --which is the circle which defines the edge of your vision. It is extremely interpretive to understand the term as orb or sphere. Perhaps that was a later meaning of the term. The simple meaning is "circle". How much further you want to take that meaning is up to you.

I hope this is helpful,

Jim Miller

I'm not interested in the Vatican or it's beleifs...only my own... Studies of the Human DNA bring scientist's to conclude that their

would have been an or an original male and female human.

Whats your source for that ? Because Everything I read says that approx 93% of the worlds leading scientists treat evolution as fact.

It would be very difficult to accept that Moses just made a good guess...or was influenced by other civilisations.

Sorry to cut out all the rest of your quote but I just wanted to highlight this and I did read the whole post. Seeing as he's believed to been brought up by egyptians, who "knew" this whole thing about the world being round, not flat, he might've been told by them, right? Just hypothically, do you think they could've learned him about this?

Are you saying that Moses, who was allegedly, found as an infant by Egyptians, then raised by Egyptians, might have actually picked up on some Egyptian knowledge! You may be on to something there!!!

Ps as I mentioned in an earlier post, the ten commandments can be found pretty much word for word in the Egyptian book of the dead (written well before the Bible BTW)

No I'm sorry...I don't agree with this... Adam and Eve were created perfect...however they were not created robots he tested them and told them that if they failed the test they would die...they chose to folllow a spirit creature that questioned God's authority over them and also said God had lied to them and said they positively would not die. Adam and Eve did indeed eventually die after they had borne many offspring. The Bible calls God a Heavenly Father so I don't think it is ridiculous to liken his authority and their free will to a father with his children. What I'm trying to say is that although created perfect...imperfection and sin were possible for God's creations.They could make a choice. Clearly a number of spirit creatures followed Satan and became part of his organisation as the Bible refers to Satan and the Demons. Satan effectively laid down a challenge to God that no perfect human could obey him...all would fail. As I said before have a look at Job Chapter 1. We all inherited that sin and imperfection from Adam and Eve as their offspring according to the Bible therefore we all die.

Firstly, The story of Adam and Eve is Allegorical. Even the Vatican doesn't dispute this anymore. However, if you are retarded enough to take this story as literal truth, then its a Psychiatrist you need and not a priest. We know for a fact that man descended from a common ancestor that we share with the other primates. We werent created from dust or Adams ribs.

Secondly. Imagine this fairytale was true. Adam and Eve are the only humans in existence. They have the whole planet to themselves. God, their creator actually physically interacts with them . He only has one rule!!! Dont eat from that tree!

So what do Adam and Eve do? Listen to a **** talking snake!!! Yeah right!!!

The bible, correctly read, presents the biggest case for atheism ever written down.

He KNOWS our future. He did not MAKE our future. He made free will and then we used that free will and made our own future. He sees the future we made.

Did God become omniscient only once he had given us this free will?

Or was he omniscient always?

If so then he knew exactly what he was doing when giving us this free will as he was perfectly aware of what was going to happen - in such a way he did make our future and was completely responsible for it.

Exactly. God could have created men who are incapable of evil, but chose not too. If you believe the bible to be 100% literally true then you believe the book of genesis. Why did god put the forbidden tree there in the first place? He knew they would eat from it before they even did, so freewill is complete rubbish.

Just watched the latest episode of "House" and the good Doctor summed it up thusly:

"Religion is the placebo of the masses"

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

- Seneca the Younger

mystical deities just imagined all of the universe into existence in 6 days then chilled on the 7th.

That's so not what I believe in. Read back a few pages

If you wanna laugh and poke fun..then so be it...glad if it makes you happy

All I have tried to do is give an opposing point of view and answer specific questions.

I have read every post closely in this forum, and I have seen nothing new that I havent seen before in the Theism - Atheism debate. All your opposing views can be crushed using science , reasoning and logic. It all boils down to faith in the end and there will never be a winner in this argument. You believe fairytales because it helps you live your life, then fair enough! I believe in science and logic. The burden of proof is on the party making the positive assertion. There is Zero evidence for the existence of ANY gods and until there is I am 99.9% sure that no gods exist.

LMFAO They ignored him!!!! If only god had a power to stop the deaths of innocent children!

Well actually he did in the end...because the foul Canaanite practice of devoting firstborn children to fire was wiped out, along with those who practiced it.

Brum American why are you trailing through posts, making sniping comments, yet ignoring the context very often. We were having a debate on specific questions. I'm not laughing and poking fun at your posts.

Thats because you cant really laugh at my posts as they are based in reality. Your posts come from a deluded, superstitious, ill informed world where staffs turn into snakes and mystical deities just imagined all of the universe into existence in 6 days, then chilled on the 7th.

People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldnt have such funny beliefs. Im sorry but religion has no place in civilized society anymore. God is just an imaginary friend for people who are scared of death.

Have you read any of my posts about God's condemnation of this practice? I notice those about God's clear instructions for it not to be carried out were completely ignored.

LMFAO They ignored him!!!! If only god had a power to stop the deaths of innocent children!

Yes both rods turned to snakes that of Moses and of the magic practicing priests...( but even Jesus said that the demons could perform powerful things) Surely the fact that Moses reported this shows the honesty of the account?

:shock:

If Jesus (who is God) admits that Demons are capable of supernatural acts, then why is god so allmighty?

Then you would know that (of the ones I even know what they mean, and to be fair, the dictionary on my computer hasnt got a clue what 3 of them mean) none of those are true. Yes, even the homophobic one. He loves all men and women, even the gay ones, its the act that he hates. It's sin that he hates.

You freely admit you dont even understand what some of the words mean but you categorically dismiss them out of hand. This , in a nutshell is what you get when you argue against a theist.

" I dont know what Im on about but I am right"

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully"

- Richard Dawkins

Ok Jondaken, you disagree with this statement. Lets have a look at it shall we?

Jealousy....

Exodus 20:4-5 says, "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God..."

Bloodthirsty, ethnic cleanser........

I have lost count of how many times god orders his followers to kill other nations in the old testament.

Homophobic......

According to the old testament, god sure don't like those gays!

Infanticdal..........

Kill the newborns etc etc etc .

The god of the old testament is a full on dickhead.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully"

- Richard Dawkins

So you goggled some anti God phrases and copy pasted them? What a valued member of this discussion you are.

Doesnt make it untrue though does it? Your only argument about my post, is that I copied and pasted it! LMFAO !

Your only argument for it, is that you just read it and assumed it to be true? (which it most certainly is not)

LMAO!

On that premise, If you read what the bible had to say about things...

I have read the bible, many times. I was a staunch Catholic up until my early 20s. Funnily Enough I actually became an atheist because I went to college and studied R.E. at A-level.

I do not agree with Dawkins...

What don't you agree with?

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully"

- Richard Dawkins

So you goggled some anti God phrases and copy pasted them? What a valued member of this discussion you are.

Doesnt make it untrue though does it? Your only argument about my post, is that I copied and pasted it! LMFAO !

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully"

- Richard Dawkins