TartarugaJones

The real art of negotiation is first being good at working how much a thing is worth, and then being good at buying it for less than that and on no accounts buying it for more than that. I would say the absolute key skill is in walking away, because psychologically it is the hardest thing to do. It is the quality that marks out the experts from the rest of us. So, in the case of a football transfer if you think player A is worth £15m and the selling club thinks he's worth £20m, should you: A: Not pay a penny more than £15m. B: Pay £20m and have done with it. C: Offer to split the difference and pay £17.5m You might however criticise Levy's valuations (such as we can guess at them), No, the right decision would be to spend that little bit more for the thing you need the most, not walking away because you can't find perfection for a pittance. It's never correct to spend more than you think he's worth!

Assuming you mean mould, I don't really agree. And why would being in the Falcao mould mean he would have been AVB's first choice? I probably did mean mould, though can't decide if mode works too! I mean an out and out number 9, a man who's there to score goals and not much else, as opposed to Benteke who's a big number 9 and is there to hold up play to get his head on every clearance and will contribute more than goals, but perhaps is not quite the same poacher in the box?

Rumours you say? Would these be the famous Spurs ITK's who said Benteke was a done deal? I'm sure you will pardon me for mocking them, I'm not mocking you. You see they are bound to say he is the one VB really wants but the reality is he appears to be the 3rd or perhaps even 4th target behind Damiao, Benteke and more than likely Villa although that isn't confirmed. I've previously argued in support of Levy and I still think he is an excellent chairman but honestly, to argue that Soldado is the one they always wanted doesn't really stand up to scrutiny if you ask me. Not sure any of the one's I believe have genuine connections called it a done deal. 25% sell-on was the rumoured sticking point with the argument being that was de facto more than £25m straight up, no idea if that was true or not, but I guess it may have been? I take your point on Spurs ITK though, we do have our fair share of Wums and also fans willing to believe them. I don't know if Soldado was AVB's first choice, but he is in the Falcao mode. Soldado doesn't seem better value to me either, but I guess it depends on the terms of the deal Villa wanted and the terms of the deal we strike with Valencia, if we strike a deal with Valencia. Personally I won't be surprised if we end up with Kenwynne Jones or something

Not sure you've grasped the art of negotiation there Samjip!! I think I have to be honest Tartar! Or at least Levy's art anyway. 2012: Levy: Hey Valencia, can we buy Roberto? Valencia: Sure, €30m. Levy: Erm, how about €22m? Valencia: No, €30m or nothing, we don't need to sell. 2013: Levy: Hey Valencia, can we buy Roberto? Valencia: Sure, but again, we want €30m. Levy: Erm, how about €22m? Valencia: No, €30m or nothing, we don't need to sell. Levy: Okay, okay how about €26m? Valencia: No, €30m or nothing, we don't need to sell. --- Of course I've shortened the processes a bit, but that seems to be the basics of his method. Do you think if Man United offered £30m for Bale, Levy would drop his asking price and accept? Of course not, he is your prized asset, he isn't for sale and you have every right to ask for what you want. You don't need to sell him, you don't want to sell him, so if you're going to sell him you're going to get what you want for him. One thing I've noticed about Levy is that he likes to identify distressed sellers and this has paid dividends right back to the £2m we paid for Lennon and £6m for Keane of Leeds, through the deal with Southampton to remove the add-ons and sell-on clause, onto the players we bought back from Portsmouth, also with Holtby, and with Ade from City. Of course it's **** obvious and all clubs must do it. It's the reason why Villa didn't need to sell and the reason why Valencia might...

He turned 28 two weeks ago. You're right though it's a lot of money and frankly I'm surprised we're pushing for it. Rumours say this is the one VB really wants so perhaps Levy's thinking about keeping one of his prize assets happy? I know he also made some uncharacteristic big-ticket purchases when he was desperate and Redknapp had first joined the club. TBH I'm much happier at the prospect of spending £20m plus add-ons on for Soldado than I was when we spent £27m on Defoe and Keane in Harry's first Transfer Window. What's striking is that the dea is virtually the same as we offered you for Benteke, I remember saying in that thread at the time that if Benteke really was valued at £25m by Villa then we'd probably go for one of our other striker targets, It's an interesting one whether Soldado for less than Benteke is better for us as a club: on the one hand Soldado has proven pedigree, his record at Getafe and Valencia over four years being (Goals / Played) 16/26, 18/34, 17/32, 24/35, he's an aVB type number 9, and has just entered his prime, but we won't get anything back on that fee, so it's all about what he can do in the next two or three years, on the other hand Benteke's pedigree is not yet proven, but he has all the qualities to suggest he will, plus a very impressive debut PL season in which he got better and better, and of course his prime is yet to come and so he's a player both for now and also a saleable asset in the future if a bigger club comes along. Normally I'd be drawn to Benteke, but I guess the fact that he's a few million more expensive has to be taken into account. Obviously Levy and VB see Soldado as representing better value.

You're right, assuming both parties want to come to an agreement. However, if you're buying a something that is not for sale, you pay the askin price or bugger off. If my house wasn't for sale, and someone knocked at the door trying to buy it, they'd have to pay a lot more than normal market price, as I don't want to sell it. Why would I negotiate? You came to me, pay up or bugger off. Sorry for the massive quote... Posting on mobile so formatting is tricky. In the case where the two parties don't agree on the valuation then you're right a deal can't be done and the putative buyer buggers off.

Ordinarily you're probably right, but there does come a point where haggling and walking away over a million or 2 million in a deal worth well over £30m (incl. wages) becomes a case of just cutting off your nose to spite your face through pride. Take Benteke to Spurs for example. For this example let's assume the rumours were all true. Spurs 'shook the tree' to see what would fall out, Benteke hands in a transfer request, Villa place a £25m-26m valuation on the player and Spurs say they'll only go to around the £22m mark. In my view, given that both sides play with one up front and a supporting cast of attacking midfielders (in our case 2 modified strikers) and given the nature of the goals Benteke scored last season, it is my opinion that with him up front, Spurs would be a force to be reckoned with. He is tailor-made for you. Your midfield is fantastic and is now even better with Paulinho in there. You are a strikeforce (and obviously luck with injuries) away from having a top season. In that situation, knowing that we wanted X amount, I think Spurs are mad not to go the extra mile in that situation. Given that they're now rumoured to be going upwards of €26m for a 28 year old who has never kicked a ball in the Premier League, I don't think a little bit of speculation would have gone amiss on Levy's behalf because Benteke was all about speed, strength, accuracy and technique last season. That's 4 things you can't coach and more importantly it's 4 things you can't decide to be able to defend against the following season. I'd be a lot more confident of Benteke having a good 2nd season in the Premier League than I would of say someone like Michu who I expect will have a much harder time this season. I know what you mean, but that still comes down to disagreeing with Levy's valuation of Benteke rather than his negotiation. If he didn't think he was worth £25m then he shouldn't pay it. I guess there's a chance he did think he was worth £25m, played silly-buggers and missed out, in which case that was poor negotiation.

I think you should be really happy with around 50m, after all you don't want an unhappy player on your books, that will not be a good thing for you and I am sure you see it that way. Depending on reports, you paid something between 5 and 10m for Bale, so for the sake of both clubs, I would suggest taking the 50m would be beneficial as you can bot move on. It really would be best for all involved if you get rid as Real are going to offer the best rates and great wages and as I said, you would be better off selling than holding on to somebody who doesn't want to be there. Very droll! We paid £7m for Bale btw.

Not sure you've grasped the art of negotiation there Samjip!! I don't think Levy has grasped the art of negotiation either. "The price is £30 million." "£25 million?" "£30 million." "£20 million plus (insert overpriced, over the hill, overpaid player he doesn't want)." "£30 million." "£27.5 million. Final offer." "We don't want or have to sell anyway. Sod off." Another master class. The real art of negotiation is first being good at working how much a thing is worth, and then being good at buying it for less than that and on no accounts buying it for more than that. I would say the absolute key skill is in walking away, because psychologically it is the hardest thing to do. It is the quality that marks out the experts from the rest of us. So, in the case of a football transfer if you think player A is worth £15m and the selling club thinks he's worth £20m, should you: A: Not pay a penny more than £15m. B: Pay £20m and have done with it. C: Offer to split the difference and pay £17.5m You might however criticise Levy's valuations (such as we can guess at them),

Not sure that's right mate?? There's barely a person on the forum I use who takes the story seriously, much less moaning about Real Madrid, we've all been there year after year that until and unless the player kicks up a stink then it's all hot-air from real Madrid's mouth-piece! But perhaps you're looking a different forum...

Not sure you've grasped the art of negotiation there Samjip!!

Levy's biggest mistakes were Bent £16.5m, Keane £12m (the second time), and Bentley £15m, there were obviously plenty of others too! One thing to note however is usually purchasing players is thought of as an investment rather than an expenditure and they're marked down as assets in the accounts. It's not always obvious what return is made on an investment, but often you can at least see what the net expense of the investment was by looking at how much they're sold on for. Thus... Player / Paid / Sold / Net Fryers / £3m / N/A / N/A Naughton / £5m / N/A / N/A Crouch / £9m / £10m / £1m Bassong / £8m / £4m / -£4m Corluka / £8.5m / £5.5m / -£3m Gomes / £10m / N/A / N/A Palacios / £12m / £10m / -£2m Pav / £14m / £8m / -£6m Bentley / £15m / £0 / -£15m Hutton / £9m / £4m / -£5m Zokora / £8.2m / £7.75m / -£0.45m So of all the duds you listed the one really expensive mistake was Bentley. I should also say we put together our current team for net £0 approximately. And if was being really cheeky I could also point out that in the four years until season 2011/12 that the Guardian have been doing their articles tracking PL club finances, the combined transfer and wage spend of Spurs was around £33m less than that of Villa's.

Just a quick one to say you were virtually to a man correct in your estimation of the chances of him signing for us... I have to admit that once it became clear that Villa valued him as highly as they did it seemed very unlikely we'd get him, the only hope we had was if the Villa board valued him less than you lot. I also want to say that I think the Villa board were exactly right to handle it the way they did, not only did they ensure they kept a prized asset they also sent out a powerful message to other players and clubs that Villa mean business and they're on the up: sign for Villa if you buy into the project long-term and not as a stepping stone, and other clubs don't bother **** about because it won't get anywhere. On the **** about issue, as a Spurs fan I don't think we did **** you about, in the end it seemed all very grown up, you had a price, we had a different one and everyone walks away without any fuss, certainly no weeks and weeks of leaks from Spurs about their intentions or what a great player Benteke is etc etc, the kind of stuff Real Madrid always go in for. I'm not going to say that we definitely would never do it because I can't know that, but I'm relieved we didn't o this occasion because I hate that shit.

You can't afford him Come on, everyone has a price, how much...?

That was a joke by the way How much do you want for him?

Yep.

well, yea im a proud belgian but i won't follow Benteke to his next team. what means tapping ppl up? Tapping up is when you speak to the player you want to transfer before speaking to his club. It's what everyone is correctly accusing Spurs of doing in the case of Benteke. According to the rules it's illegal, but in reality most if not all clubs do it (imo).

Personally I think it's because there are a few clubs and sets of fans with pretensions to play football the "right way", with pretensions which out-strip achievements etc etc and we're all vying to make that break-through to the next level. Currently we're having a small spell of relative success so everyone around our size hates us, on the other hand the fans of Utd seem to really like us, mainly I suspect because we nearly always lose to them and aren't a threat... Anyway, if Benteke does transfer can we expect a certain Belgian guy to transfer with him, or do I need to talk to the site mods before talking to you directly? why would i follow him? Well you already support the national team, and if the rumours are to believed pretty soon half your national team will be playing at WHL. But mainly because I was joking about tapping you up...

Personally I think it's because there are a few clubs and sets of fans with pretensions to play football the "right way", with pretensions which out-strip achievements etc etc and we're all vying to make that break-through to the next level. Currently we're having a small spell of relative success so everyone around our size hates us, on the other hand the fans of Utd seem to really like us, mainly I suspect because we nearly always lose to them and aren't a threat... Anyway, if Benteke does transfer can we expect a certain Belgian guy to transfer with him, or do I need to talk to the site mods before talking to you directly?

Haha, it's true!!! There's a couple of good ones though, and afaic the rest are all wums. It usually goes that one of the one's with known connections comes out with something, at which point there's a spate of copy-cat 'ITK', all saying that they'd heard the same, was about to post etc etc. How do we know that there are genuine ITK and they're not all WUMs? Well, to give one example, someone called the Ryan Nelson free transfer hours before it was anywhere, just out of the blue he said we'd signed him, as you can imagine he was ridiculed, especially by other 'ITK', but also by fans in general, but he just stuck quietly to his guns and was of course later shown to be correct. He also rarely posts, and doesn't engage in conversation, not the symptoms of an attention seeker... I'm sure you must have similar examples of Villa insiders, which helps sort the wheat from the chaff.

Thanks.

It smells to me like two clubs negotiating!

If that was the case then Benteke would be a Spurs player right now, not rocket science is it? I don't follow...? I don't either, not a fan of twitter tbh... I think TJ is saying that it's possible that Villa's valuation of CB might be lower than ours is. And that if he ends up leaving for less than what we (the fans) want, it's not necessarily a victory for Levy. It might be that he matched Villa's actual valuation of the player and that it was simply a case of 2 clubs agreeing on a deal. Yes!