nick76

So, to sum up. McLeish gets to go on a boys jolly to America to look at a "model" at Cleveland Browns which has seen them consistently finish bottom of their division. The reason he's there is because he failed to motivate his team well enough, or to change the shape of the side, to sucessfully hold a 2-0 half time lead against a badly mis-firing Arsenal side. Villa have won, what is it? 6 from their 25 games this season went out of both cups early and currently lie 15th in a piss poor Premier Division where Swansea City, Norwich City are above us. What a fanfuckingtastic decision it was to appoint him. And yet, THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE ON THIS SITE WILLING TO STICK UP FOR MCLEISH. Get real people.

People only hate him because of where he came from...

Its not the only reason, but it is a still a massive factor and always will be.

Those who pretend it's not really a major if not THE major factor, should re-read the posts on this site from the first week he was appointed. He wasn't hated then "because of how badly he has set us up to play" as some pretend is their whole complaint.

So, to sum up. McLeish gets to go on a boys jolly to America to look at a "model" at Cleveland Browns which has seen them consistently finish bottom of their division. The reason he's there is because he failed to motivate his team well enough, or to change the shape of the side, to sucessfully hold a 2-0 half time lead against a badly mis-firing Arsenal side. Villa have won, what is it? 6 from their 25 games this season went out of both cups early and currently lie 15th in a piss poor Premier Division where Swansea City, Norwich City are above us. What a fanfuckingtastic decision it was to appoint him. And yet, THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE ON THIS SITE WILLING TO STICK UP FOR MCLEISH. Get real people.

So 2 accidentals yes, who are the other 18? Liked to know the reasons apart from the reason of 'nobody better out there' because that's fairly lame excuse

In the grand scheme of things, a 1-0 loss to Man City isn't bad. Many people were going to the game assuming we would be completely turned over.

Perhaps Heskey's physical presence did help with the defensive side of things?

My opinion is that McLeish made a good choice in dropping Warnock, and a clever alteration by bringing Cuellar in (he could have easily put Baker, Lichaj, Hutton or Stevens at left back).

The midfield was set up well, Albrighton back to fitness to hit them on the couner, Petrov & Gardner (presumably because Clark was injured?) in the middle, but then Heskey on the right was slightly less attacking than many of us would have liked.

But then we did play with Bent & Keane up top.

If we'd have played Albrighton, Bent, Keane & N'Zogbia OR Ireland with only Petrov & Gardner in the middle and we'd have been trounced 5-0 or 6-0, then people would just be slating him for going too 'Gung Ho' and not giving Petrov or Gardner enough cover. I really don't think he can win.

We contained them until their goal, and we did have attempts on goal ourselves.

City looked like they wanted to just keep possession for most of the game, even when it was 0-0. Our players did work hard to get the ball back - mostly Keano! But we lost to one poorly defended corner.

I came away from the game thinking we could have had a point, and that would have been more than most of us had expected.

I understand people's frustrations that we didn't attack more, but I really don't understand the anger at losing a game 1-0 when we did attack, we did have chances on target and we did contain them for the majority of the game.

He does really need to pick up some points in the next few games though, if he doesn't then we are going to be dangerously close to the drop.

I could argue why his decisions were wrong and go through each of your points but I'm running out of energy keep arguing and debating about this manager. If people are happy or not willing to change the issues we have I'm starting to lose hope, I just can't see how people can defend this and then McLeish have the hide and say what he did in the post match interview......just very sad about it all......

Finally seen McLeish's post match interview, if people defend him after that then there is no hope.

This is my appeal to any Villa supporter considering protesting tomorrow.

It is your right to air your veiws / displeasure at the current situation at the club.

Think; what do you aim to achieve? What are the possible positive outcomes?

Will this have any influence on the decision making process of the senior management at the club?

No - why?

In such a relativeley short period of time since the (controversial) appointment the only key factor that will be assessed when considering to continue with the current course of action will be the threat of relegation and the resultant financial consequences. Is this currently likely? Pragmatically speaking; no. We are clear of the relegation zone with some favorable fixtures on the horizon. To simplify this, according to the current odds there are 6 teams judged more likley to be relegated than us and our odds are very distant from the 4 most likely teams to be relegated.

Maybe you think that fan discontent leading to decreasing attendence will be a fator?

Again, no.

Our senior management have set us on a course, a strategy, of transition. AMc currently has a net spend of minus £20 million. Our form, position and stuttering consistency are to be expected during this transition phase, and thus everything that goes along with it, fan dissatisfaction, reducing attendence, will be factored into the strategy. Unless we are seriously threatened with relegation (see point above) we are on track as per our strategy.

At this point we must recognise that these are accepted short term factors. In the longer term, if performances don't improve then the choice of manager will be brought into question. No matter how unpopular AMc is though, if the team is doing well, attendence and revenues will reflect that fact.

As per the issue of attractive football; this is largely irrelevant. Fans want to see success. Success equals increased attendence and revenues (the way that some people talk you'd think Villa have been Barcelona for the ast 5 years!).

As for now, our senior management will know that, ratioanlly speaking, there has not been enough time to judge AMc (as per our strategy) and they have made decision for the medium / long term and will stick to them.

So, I feel it's unlikley that protestors will achieve anything significant towards their objectives (which as far as I can tell have not been clearly stated though I assume they're primarily focused on removing AMc as manager).

So what are the potential negative consequences of protesting?

1. Most important - pressure on the team. The whole point of being a supporter is to support the team. Whilst positivity can lift a team and cause it to over perform, negativity will almost certainly cause it to under perform - even when directed from a vocal minority. So you must consider whether your actions are worth the likelyhood of having a detrimental affect on the team.

2. The reputation of Villa fans - we are already seen as fickle and this will not help our cause. This is already being discussed in the national media. Think about how the reputation of Blackburn fans has suffered; we don't have half as much to moan about as they do! Whether you like it or not (or even care) this will reflect badly on Aston Villa's fans. It will be a repeat of the summer fallout where our fans were made to look a national laughing stock.

So if you want to protest tomorrow, just reflect on whether where we are as a club and the potential impact on our reputation is worth it. Supporting a club should be a selfless taks, are you really thinking about the club or yourself?

I would never deny the right to free speech, but I am very much anti the protests and what they might mean for our club and will have no problem telling that to any protesters I see tomorrow

Some of your arguments I don't agree with.....doing the protest is also a selfless task as well because we know it will hurt the reputation slightly of Aston Villa but we are doing this for the long term benefit of the club. One step backwards to move two steps forward.

Accepting the current situation for me means I am not really supporting the club as the welfare of the club is being hurt by this current manager and as a supporter I must act now to stop this continuing. While you may not agree with me this is my feelings on the subject. Doing nothing I feel I am not truly supporting the club as I'm letting the welfare of my club decline and I'm not doing anything to stop that.

Your argument now boils down to giving people a chance even if they aren't good enough......I'm shocked

It doesnt at all.

It boils down to - not jumping on their backs purely because you think hes not good enough. Especially if the person saying hes not good enough, doesnt know his arse from his elbow when it comes to being a football manager.

So far we dont know if hes not good enough or not yet because hes only been there 6 months. And what exactly is good enough? Because so far hes won exactly the same as the previous managers over the past 16 years or so. **** all, albeit - but what exactly is our benchmark?? IMO, (based on the last 20 years) its inconsistent form. Hes pretty much gettin that nail on the head.

You may be happier and think it is a joke! I would say you are being simplistic and picking on some good points but then I could throw back loads of bad points and issues, and you dismiss some of them and I would come back with some argument and we would get nowhere apart from difference of opinion.

The basic thing though that while you don't agree with the protest, other people feel they have to have their say and unfortunately a protest is the only means those people have to voice their opinions more than on a message board. You think it's a joke which is unfair on those people, you have to respect other people feel different and have some valid reasons. There will always be some idiots there as well who will obviously embarrass us but the sentiment of the protest is still valid to some villa fans.

So saying it a joke is wrong, you may not agree but that is your right

You're probably right, each person is entitled to their own view.

My only concern is, I'm not sure what a protest will achieve

Get behind the team, yes......get behind the manager, no!

I dont see how you can get behind the team without getting behind the most integral part of that team?

Without a manager, we havent got a team.

If people are saying that Mcliesh (i.e. the manager) and the team are two seperate aspects of AVFC, then it seems ludicrously unfair to pinpoint the blame at Mcliesh for the teams failures??

Point is, the arguement that its possible to get behind the team and not the manager is bollocks.

Think many people are mistaking supporting/getting behind as singing/cheering etc, when actually, just erasing the whole 'i want you to fail' attitude that ooozes around Villa Park would go a long way imo.

there is a difference between 'I want you to fail' and what I believe is 'I know you are going to fail' distinct difference and very unfair on villa fans that you state that. No villa fan wants villa to fail.

How can you get behind a team without getting behind a manager......obvious....support the team emphatically when they are on the pitch! Don't care what the manager does.........just give the players as much support when they are playing, despite poor tactics, poor player formations and no idea how to adapt when circumstances change......that's how

But by cheering the team on, your inadvertedly cheering the manager on imo? Hes the guy that puts them there.

You mention dispite of poor tactics etc for the players. Why not support the manager in spite of poor players, better oppositions, lack of investment in the squad, limited skill level?? You know, is Mcliesh 'being shite' (not exactly my view btw) a reason not to get behind him?? Is that what we do nowadays - discourage those who arent quite good enough - and indeed not quite good enough - on the basis that a load of absolute know it alls (who in the grand scheme of things, know absolutely buggar all about running a professional football team), say he isnt. Of course the obvious answer to that is he got relegated twice so he isnt good enough! So we live in a world where nobodys allowed to improve, and learn from the mistakes they previously made?

You really have got it tits about face if you refuse to support the teams manger (who you can blatently see is giving his all) and yet you support a set of overpaid players, who turn up as and when it suits their preferences.

Get behind the team, yes......get behind the manager, no!

I dont see how you can get behind the team without getting behind the most integral part of that team?

Without a manager, we havent got a team.

If people are saying that Mcliesh (i.e. the manager) and the team are two seperate aspects of AVFC, then it seems ludicrously unfair to pinpoint the blame at Mcliesh for the teams failures??

Point is, the arguement that its possible to get behind the team and not the manager is bollocks.

Think many people are mistaking supporting/getting behind as singing/cheering etc, when actually, just erasing the whole YES I AGREE well done some1 who's got right idea gettin behind ur team is not rallying up a few idiots and slagging off the club! when i say club i mean anything to do with Aston Villa weather it be players, manager or Chairman it just doesn't help the situation. We need to get behind the team and make sure we're in this league nxt season!

this is why people are protesting....your words sum it up....our aim is just to stay up...how far have we dropped???? That this is our aim! But let's not do anything about it, let's accept this is our aim and back an incompetent manager that might or might not achieve this aim.....let's accept that! I'm so angry that what it has come down to and some of us aren't happy with that and hence the protest. And we aren't slagging the club off as you say we are saying we are not happy and we want change. That is not slagging the club off it's voicing our opinion because we want the long term benefit of the club. Accepting the current situation in my mind is far worse than protesting, it's accepting our goal is to try and stay in the league as you say.....that's not my aim and shouldn't be villa's aim

Get behind the team, yes......get behind the manager, no!

I dont see how you can get behind the team without getting behind the most integral part of that team?

Without a manager, we havent got a team.

If people are saying that Mcliesh (i.e. the manager) and the team are two seperate aspects of AVFC, then it seems ludicrously unfair to pinpoint the blame at Mcliesh for the teams failures??

Point is, the arguement that its possible to get behind the team and not the manager is bollocks.

Think many people are mistaking supporting/getting behind as singing/cheering etc, when actually, just erasing the whole 'i want you to fail' attitude that ooozes around Villa Park would go a long way imo.

How can you get behind a team without getting behind a manager......obvious....support the team emphatically when they are on the pitch! Don't care what the manager does.........just give the players as much support when they are playing, despite poor tactics, poor player formations and no idea how to adapt when circumstances change......that's how

You may be happier and think it is a joke! I would say you are being simplistic and picking on some good points but then I could throw back loads of bad points and issues, and you dismiss some of them and I would come back with some argument and we would get nowhere apart from difference of opinion.

The basic thing though that while you don't agree with the protest, other people feel they have to have their say and unfortunately a protest is the only means those people have to voice their opinions more than on a message board. You think it's a joke which is unfair on those people, you have to respect other people feel different and have some valid reasons. There will always be some idiots there as well who will obviously embarrass us but the sentiment of the protest is still valid to some villa fans.

So saying it a joke is wrong, you may not agree but that is your right

I agree about rotten apples in the squad but I'm not going to support a manager who is not right for the club. I will support the team at the start to the end of each game on the pitch as they need that but I will slate or big up players outside of that

Considering we've lost Ash & DJ, I think we're having a better season than last year

To protest now is ludicrous and embarrassing

Get behind the team and the manager please

Don't do it people, it's not the time for this. If we play crap and do not pick up points against Wigan/Blackburn/Fulham/Bolton then break AMC's freaking door down at BMH and protest there. Doing it before a game against an inform Man City is not the way to do it. Get behind the lads. Saying doing it before the game wont effect the players but it will, players will still see and know what's going on and will cause them to have it on their mind during the game breaking an already fragile confidence. I hate what AVFC have become of late but this is not all down to AMC. I don't think he is the right manager for the job but protesting now is stupid IMO. Wait and see how the next few games pan out, then protest as we will have valid grounds to and will carry more clout.

Agreed.

I do not rate McLeish and would prefer him not here and there may well be a time in future to protest about it but agree the timing of this protest is wrong and not needed.

but it's always waiting isn't, no time is good. First it was give him the first 7 games, then let's see by Christmas, then end of Jan, now following those games you mention, some people say end of end season, some even say end of next season when he's had a full season.

I have seen nothing in the time he has been here to warrant any more time. The fact is he isn't good enough......one or two good results or great performances will happen because laws of nature means it has to, but then we'll have some diabolical performances and most will be less than average at best. My opinion is not based on one game, it's over his duration and he simply isn't good enough over the average of the season......he has to go. No time is good so why not now? Let's think of the long term now, and get somebody else in

Look i don't rate McLeish and his record this season so far has been truly terrible and we should not be in the dunces half of league and agree theres little to suggest his crap winning 1 in every 4 or so games Premier league record will change but a protest before a game against Man City IS the wrong time for a protest.

You say theres never a right time to protest but there is IMO a wrong time to - which this weekends game would be .

If we were playing a lower level team the I agree this weekend might not be a good weekend to do it, as there is a better chance of a result, that's why I think this weekend is a better time to do it than another weekend. I'm interested to hear why you think not this weekend if there was going to be a weekend for a protest?

Back when we were actually being served up terrible football around November, most of us were saying that if the football was decent we wouldn't be moaning about the results. Now it's the opposite with the football being decent (even great at times) with the results being poor. So now it's 'no but we lost/drew, who cares about how we played'. Just admit it, some of you hated AM from the start and wouldn't accept him no matter what.

Don't do it people, it's not the time for this. If we play crap and do not pick up points against Wigan/Blackburn/Fulham/Bolton then break AMC's freaking door down at BMH and protest there. Doing it before a game against an inform Man City is not the way to do it. Get behind the lads. Saying doing it before the game wont effect the players but it will, players will still see and know what's going on and will cause them to have it on their mind during the game breaking an already fragile confidence. I hate what AVFC have become of late but this is not all down to AMC. I don't think he is the right manager for the job but protesting now is stupid IMO. Wait and see how the next few games pan out, then protest as we will have valid grounds to and will carry more clout.

Agreed.

I do not rate McLeish and would prefer him not here and there may well be a time in future to protest about it but agree the timing of this protest is wrong and not needed.

I have seen nothing in the time he has been here to warrant any more time. The fact is he isn't good enough......one or two good results or great performances will happen because laws of nature means it has to, but then we'll have some diabolical performances and most will be less than average at best. My opinion is not based on one game, it's over his duration and he simply isn't good enough over the average of the season......he has to go. No time is good so why not now? Let's think of the long term now, and get somebody else in

I hope it does happen. Embarrassing yes, but look at us already we have become a bit of a joke......unlike some on here I'd be happy for us look like clowns for a bit if it gets the desired result because watching this football for the majority of the time is painful. Also to be honest who cares what other people think, for one I only care about Aston Villa and two, this will have been forgotten when the next media story comes out. Today's news s tomorrow's rubbish and all that.

better than sitting on our backside and accepting what we are getting

Home Kit in June

Away kit in July

2 Goalkeeper kits available to buy in all sizes

Nearly double what Nike where paying per season

Full set of Leisure and Training ware

Flagship team in the UK

I fail to see any negatives

Reasoning being that fans that generally buy the kit still will but those who only buy based on style or other accessories by how it looks may not buy or buy less compared to a brand like Nike. This is only speculation and I'm looking forward to seeing the range, as it will have the advantage of being in June and July rather than Nike. But you can see the potential downside if Macrons prior history if anything to go by, but again let's wait until the range is out.......so my view is good initial deal I figures wise, not comfortable with the brand until I see the range

Its not blind optimism, it is knowing reality, and the reality is this.

Randy Lerner gambled, MON said give me a shed load of money and I will get you CL football. If he succeeded, that shed load of money would have been repaid in extra revenue.

The gamble failed and because of that, we are now in a financial mess.

Now whether you blame Lerner, Faulkner or O'Neill (thats another debate) that is the fact.

So we now have McLeish. And his brief is to sort out the mess.

THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE DONE IN SIX MONTHS !!!!!!

We have lost our "big" players. And nothing could be done about it. Barry and Young were coming up to out of contract and said they would not resign. Milner said he wanted out, and Downing did the dirty on us.

NONE OF THAT WAS MCLEISH's FAULT.

He then has a lot of shite on big wages that will be gone in June, Beye, Cueller and Heskey the three main ones, and probably a few more (I dont class these as shit) "older" players on big wages , Petrov, Collins, maybe Dunne, Warnock etc.....

NONE OF THIS IS MCLEISH's FAULT - he didn't sign them, he didn't give them the wages.

SO

Until McLeish has had time to sort this lot out, I will give him a fair crack of the whip. Thats not saying I like him, or I wanted him, its saying I'll back him.

I accepted at the start of the season that this was going to be a dodgy year, some good, some bad, some even ugly. And that is what we have.

We are 11th, we could be 8th tomorrow, and given the circumstances, if we are, I would suggest McLeish is punching well above his weight.

Onto Transfer topic, I am more than happy to just go with what we have, give the kids more gametime, sort out the wheat (what seems at the moment to be Herd, Gardner, Clark, Alby etc..) from the chaff (what appears to be Lowry, I know hes gone, Hogg - gone etc...)

And then when we know which kids will make it (still got to look at Guzan, Lichaj, Bannan to a certain extent, Weimann and Fonz)

THEN let McLeish buy players that we need !.

AND THEN JUDGE BOTH HIM, HIS APPOINTMENT AND THE RESULTS

until then, lay off him, coz I remember in 1987 - a certain GT team being in the bottom 3 of the Championship in November, about 9th at about this time the same year in the same division ,

the selling big players like McInally and replacing them with no ones like Olney

AND TWO YEARS LATER WHEN HE HAD DONE JUST THIS WE WERE RUNNERS UP TO LIVERPOOL !!!!!!!!!!!!

and at the end of this tiime, which I would say is end of next season then slag off McLeish and his signings, but until he / his signings fail - LEAVE IT OUT

So we have got to one place.....with varying degrees obviously from people who don't want him but we are stuck with him so give him a chance to people who don't want him and want him out now? So nobody still actually wants him here......says everything!

I wanted to be the next Villa manager, does that mean when Alex is fired I will get the job

Well, Nick, what are your credentials?

How did I do?

thanks good reply. I would ask a question though, why do you think people like me don't like him mainly because he managed the blues. I admit I hate the blues, but his being a blues manager previously has absolutely no bearing on how I feel about him now. In stark contrast I would love him to be successful just so I can turn around to my blue nose mates and gloat that we pinched a great thing from them who will be a legend at our club. So if anything him being at blues and we pinching him I want him to succeed to rub it in my mates faces. Failure they can just say they sold us a lemon. Surely that makes more sense than me wanting him to fail.

His record is my issue, how his teams play, he is unimagative, he makes constant errors, he can't react when other manages do, he's not fixing problems that are happening over and over again, international players don't seem to know what to do, tactics seem one dimensional at best and can't change, his excuses are pitiful and we generally 9 times out of 10 look the poorer team in games......that's my reasoning and that's why I want him gone now. I want to build on a team with a manager over the next 5 to 10 years as we go through this phase we are in with money restrictions.

We, as fans, need to believe in a manager that can do that but with McLeish we can't and the fans seem to be agreeing with me....low crowds, booing at games, forums in meltdown and media commenting.....it's so detrimental to the club that it has to change now or more likely the summer so this club can consolidate and build for the future. McLeish is not the answer and will never be because too many people don't think he's good enough and he isn't, I'm not backing a manager just because I hear the term we need to get behind him....getting behind the wrong person is just foolish. If there is a problem you fix it and move on, we have a problem and it needs fixing before we can move on.

1. AMs past...... when you have 200 Villa fans breaking into Villa Park live on SSN chanting "We Don't Want McLeish" it shows there is a problem. When on camera the guy interviewed says "It a'int about the blouse" when he has "SOTC" written on both sleeves and across his chest you become suspicious about peoples motives. There are too many fans motivated by a hatred of a nothing club that play in a cow shed rather than a desire to support their own team. Which I find pathetic. After all, if we refused to take on ex-blousers we wouldn't have won the European Cup.

2. Style of football..... like I said... workmanlike. Makes the best of what he's got and what he can get hold of. The one thing MON is outstanding at is getting average players to play like world class ones. AM does not have that ability. We are at our true level. Dunne makes mistakes, and for what ever reason he doesn't seem to fancy Cuellar. Thats fine. I trust him. He's got the coaching badges not me. We sold our two best players over the summer and have not replaced them so we were never ever going to move forward.

3. His record.... YES he steered the blues down... twice. They have always yo-yo'd up and down the divisions. You can't polish a turd. They are shite. They will always be shite whoevers in charge. Hughton getting them back up is not an achievement when they are one of the richest clubs in the Championship with a stack or parachute payments. BUT he took that shower of shite to a Carling Cup Final and won it. MON didn't manage to do that.

4. The fans.... the fans not believing AM will go anywhere IS problem. Not AM himself. He hasn't been given a fair crack of the whip and as I said in my OP he needs time to put his mark on the squad, and given that Randy clearly isn't handing out the levels of cash MON enjoyed that will take time. The players at home look shit scared because every mistake they make the crowd turns on them and AM. (See point 1) If walked into my office and told my staff that everyone thinks they are shit and pounce on every mistake with a barrage of abuse, my team wouldn't perform. Its the same thing here at Villa Park.

Having paid £10m in compensation to MON and GH plus back room staff, AM is here for the duration of his contract whether the fans like it or not. My suggestion? Get over it. Support your team. Stop the booing and the moaning.

i think a lot of people are forgetting that he actually wanted to be in charge of villa

and? What has that got to do with it, just because you want something doesn't mean you are god enough for it. I wanted to be the next Villa manager, does that mean when Alex is fired I will get the job

appreciate the fact that he wanted to come to us, by the sounds of it nobody else did, even martinez turned us down and that was a blessing in disguise