GENTLEMAN

The other massive flaw with project Lambert is he's bypassing our own academy players . Why buy shit like Bowery Tonev KEA? I'd rather just play the kids

It is too early to say that with any conviction.

Its just a rough patch.

 

All young players go through this and Benteke is no different. Once it turns around for him, he'll let loose.

The beast will awaken.

Manchester city spend more than they can afford?

 

They did at the beginning of Mansour's reign.

Yes I wonder how any business makes sure it doesn't spend more than it can afford. Must just be luck for all those that manage it. 

 

Manchester City?

Simple.

Back him, give him the chance to bring in 3/4 ready made players, I guarantee we will shoot up the table and play better football.

But before we slaughter him, we need the chairman to show faith and let him spend more than the 2.5m per player he has had.

And let's face it, if it wasn't for the wage bill needing reduced on instruction from Lerner, he wouldn't have to split 40m over 16 players. It is a budget rebuild for gods sake.

I am expecting us to spend more on established players next summer, I will be very disappointed if we fail to do so. 

I think we all need to remember we are still at the early stages of a long term project. I imagine Lambert would have anticipated this season was going to be "difficult".

Why would a relatively minor injury dent his self confidence?? Not having a go GENT and I'm no psychologist but that doesn't add up.

I have not expressed myself clearly. The injury is not the sole reason for his lack of self-confidence or goal scoring form but it is the obvious instigator in my opinion. The injury did disrupt his excellent early goal scoring form, and I assume it has put a huge amount of pressure on Benteke to regain his scoring touch.

As I have aforementioned above, the injury may still be causing some discomfort to Benteke but I am purely guessing.

 

 

Initially he said all the right things and spent a lot of money. Not sure this can be classified as having done a lot of good things when looking back with hindsight.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Investing more money into the playing side is not doing a good thing? Rebuilding the training ground is not doing a good thing?

 

Spending more money than he could really afford and then slashing expenditure to try to get back on track is not a good thing.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Initially he said all the right things and spent a lot of money. Not sure this can be classified as having done a lot of good things when looking back with hindsight.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Investing more money into the playing side is not doing a good thing? Rebuilding the training ground is not doing a good thing?

Lambert and Randy both have the privilege to be the ones who have followed much hated predecessors. They'll both be given more time in result to this and be judged in an entirely different, hypocritical manner. I'm pretty sure that's for the good of Villa when it comes to Lambert, but not so sure about Randy at all. Currently his main saving grace is that he's not Deadly.

Randy initially did a lot of good things at the club maybe this has earned RL more time from supporters.

I do not agree with the view that Benteke does not want to play for us. That attitude and bad performances are not going to endear him to potential clubs, and it makes no sense after signing a contract extension in the summer.

Last season Benteke was injury-free and scoring in virtually every game, I imagine his confidence was very high, especially with the plaudits that were being given to the man. I think the injury did dent his self-confidence and he is currently going through a bad spell (Lambert did warn in advance that this could potentially happen). The injury may also be causing him problems which is not ideal. 

I also believe that his goal scoring record did mask some weaker aspects of his overall game last year. I am of the opinion that Benteke is more of a poacher type striker (like Bent) rather than a typical target man. But thankfully Benteke is young enough and has the potential to improve many aspects of his game to combine both.

We will see how people feel when palace and stoke bully us and Swansea outplay us. Reckon we will be 17th by jan. No villa fan can honestly be happy with what they've been seeing the last 5 games including the Southampton result

The football has not been great but catastrophising is not going to help your mood. If what you say occurs then we need to worry about it then, not now. I am confident we can pick up points against those teams.

Harry to return?

Lambert out

AVB in

No. Lambert in.

How can Kozak be mentioned in the same sentence as Bowery and Helenius? Kozak has contributed to a good percentage of our victories this season.

I like being optimistic about our chances, but the football we are attempting to play is worrying me. There needs to be improvements.

We are hardly having terrible luck with injuries are we. At any given time we have had maybe 3 or 4 of what would be considered our first 11 out. It is par for the course. It is why you need a squad of good players.

Our squad is crap. Its as simple as that. First 11 is OK but it is delusional to think you will not get a fair few injuries through out the course of a season. Every team does and we are fairing no worse than anyone else. Difference between us and 90% of the other Prem club is that they have better squad than us and are more able to cover injuries with adequate replacements.

 

I think the injuries to the CBs are incredibly unlucky, especially considering it is in one particular position. Okore, Vlaar and Herd all being injured is bad luck IMO.

 

 

 

 

We will be relegation fodder by the start of the New Year.

I would not go that far.

 

Let's see where we are come 1st January.

 

I think we will overcome this bad form. We also need some fortune regarding injuries.

 

we were crap before the injuries though, just not as terrible defensively

 

Performance wise we were. But we still obtained a decent amount of points from games.

 

 

We will be relegation fodder by the start of the New Year.

I would not go that far.

 

Let's see where we are come 1st January.

 

I think we will overcome this bad form. We also need some good fortune regarding injuries.

We will be relegation fodder by the start of the New Year.

I would not go that far.

That was dreadful.

But just as tv companies are prepared to pay more then the same is going to be said about sponsers and other commercial deals. The more popular the premiership becomes the more money clubs can earn from commercail revenues. 

 

​Not necessarily as the money is not related to an outside partner. We have also seen and experienced a economic downturn over the last few years, I imagine this would not have helped the club find suitable partner(s). The club has posted growth in this department so it is hard to condemn Lerner or Faulkner regarding the commercial side of the club. 

I didn't say it didn't matter i'm saying that what we've done has been nothing to shout about or has put us in a strong postion compared to other teams. This is also the group that made negative comments about the gambling industry sponsoring our shirt and then ended up running back to the industry the last two years.

 

I have not started this subject randomly to praise Randy Lerner. I originally replied to another poster who was critical of the commercial activity at the club and I disputed that claim with some evidence and general observations. It is an unfair criticism IMO.

These people appointed Alex McLeish, so they have made more than one baffling decision at the club. I am not here to stand-by everything they have said or done since they have taken over the club. Nor I am going to join in with the berating of the Randy Lerner or indulging in false rumours created about the guy. The fabrication of rumours are the worst though. That is absolutely disgusting behaviour.

But like i said its what we do compared to the rest of the league that matters. It wouldn't matter one bit that we were making more money than when doug was in charge if all other teams were making more would it?

 

I'd say the fact sunderland made more than us, a team like norwich equalled what we made and teams like fulham and stoke were only a couple of million off us would suggest its not much of a positive at all.

 

 

There is too many factors to consider (or ignore) when comparing to the rest of the league and it is easier to rubbish the efforts of the club. I had hoped the Tottenham analogue would have cancelled out this argument but that has been ignored. When compared with other facets at the club, it is a positive aspect concerning the Lerner regime.

I have already made my thoughts known regarding the comparison with the rest of the league, I have nothing more to say about it. We have to agree to disagree regarding this matter I am afraid. I have no energy to proceed regarding this subject.

Then why does it bode well for the future if it has little effect on the team?

 

The club is aiming to become self-sufficient and is attempting to boost our income without a benefactor. An increased income will, in theory, allow us to attract and sustain a better quality of player. The club has shown competency in the commercial department so it does bode well for the future. 

I consider the manager having the biggest influence on the team not the board. Unfortunately Lerner has previously made mistakes with managerial appointments, and that has ultimately halted our progress on the field. If Lambert can continue to improve the team then we will progress up the league, it will take time and financial support though.

No one wants the club to be in large amounts of debt but also surviving on the cheap is unacceptable.

 

I would love the club to be sponsored by ACORNS. I would love Randy pumping his own cash to subsidise another crack at Champions League Football. In reality, it is not possible. I would say making the club sustainable is a good business decision.  

This summer will go a long way in showing us what the near future will be like under Lerner. Also i'd ask if Lerner isn't providing money in the future then why would anyone want him as the owner? 

 

I agree. You would hope Lerner will allow more investment for transfers once the club's finances have been stabilised. 

Which is fair enough but surely you have to accept that more money is coming into the game at the moment so theres bound to be an increase. 

 

I accept there is additional income coming into the Premiership but it is unrelated to commercial income. Most of the new money is coming from broadcasting rights which is separate from the commercial deals. A commercial deal requires people operating the club need to have skill and business knowledge to secure a partner that is willing to pay the best amount. We have seen an increase in the commercial income which is testament to the talent of those operating the club. The club under Lerner is marketed a lot better than it ever has been.

But you've said you're happy with our commercial income because it bodes well for the future. But how can you justify that if you don't compare it to the rest of the league? We could improve massivly on what we earned during dougs time but if 19 other teams are doing better would it still bode well for the future? At the end of 11/12 sunderland had earned more from commercial deals than us and newly promoted norwich had earned the same. Hardly the stuff thats going to make us a force in the future.

 

And i'm just saying its not really anything praise worthy imo. Its not putting us ahead of our competition which at the end of the day is what professional sport is all about and its made us no stronger against other teams than when doug was here. The premier league is not an individual event in which we just compete with our past.

 

​I am happy with the increase in our commercial income because it indicates the board are securing good deals for the club (see above). If we truly want to be sustainable and prosperous in the future we need to maximise all income streams, it is obvious. To suggest it does not matter when we are aiming to be self-sufficient is ludicrous. 

I have not compared us with other clubs, or the rest of the league, because there is too many factors to consider. And it does not have much influence on where any club finishes in the league, it is not a direct competitive advantage. For example, Tottenham had the lowest commercial income out of the all teams you have mentioned and they finished fourth that year, it has no direct bearing on the pitch or the league table and I never claimed it to be. 

And like i said compared to other teams in the league it really isn't anything special or really worth shouting about.

 

...And it is not something you can criticise RL or PF for. It is a positive aspect of Lerner's reign.

So? When heskey was upfront no one said you just need to recognise the manager wants him to play. No one said we just need to recognise the owner wants mcleish as manager. 

 

You can question decisions Lerner has made, and the consequences of those decisions, in the pursuit of sustainability. Of course you can. But the overall concept of sustainability is not incorrect though? If yes, how would you have handled the situation differently? What plan would you have had for the future? I would be interested to know.

You've refused to compare him to anyone to justify praise.

 

I have compared it with the last owner of Aston Villa, Doug Ellis. I would like to think his predecessor Ellis is a relative benchmark for comparison. I also provided examples and general observations of recent marketing and commercial activities the club has undertaken recently to improve that department. I am only interested in Aston Villa Football Club, I have zero interest in any other club.

And I can easily say you are comparing the information to other clubs to unjustly criticise Lerner, it is neither right or wrong. I was defending PF's record rather than Lerner's if you look back on what I wrote originally.

If you google premier league commercial revenue you'll see that after 11/12 season 8 teams were above us in the revenue table. Be interesting to see if another relegation battle last season improved that. I doubt it. Are you telling me we were lower than that under Doug?

Why are you asking me questions relating to the information you have decided to select and research? Go and find it out yourself. There are various factors to consider when comparing the information with other clubs. But you have decided to go down that road not me. It is your responsibility to convince me and others of your argument. 

Lets get back to my initial argument regarding commercial improvement under Lerner. The club also announced that commercial income had increased yearly in 2012. "The financial statement also showed Villa's commercial income had increased by 15.9% year on year" (BBC). Again this reaffirms my belief that the club has made improvements and growth in that department, it bodes well for the future if we continue to grow our commercial income. I feel Lerner/Faulkner deserve some praise for the increase. If we start to achieve more on the pitch it will only add to our commercial income and will give us the opportunity to progress further. 

The club has entered into sponsorship agreements with Macron and Dafabet since that report in 2012, so our commercial income "should" have increased again but none of us know for certain at this present time. We have to wait and see for now.

I originally said the club has made improvements commercially since 2006, and the club HAS made significant progress in the commercial department since the takeover from Ellis. That was my original argument. I believe my belief has been vindicated by the evidence I have provided.

Using the same info available that I mentioned above. 5 teams made more money than us purely on commercial income and 3 clubs made the same as us on just commercial income. Is that an improvement than under Doug?

 

Once again that is the argument you have decided to pursue, not me. I think you may need to delve deeper into the Ellis era to find the answer.

And what would they be then?

Firstly you need to recognise Aston Villa is a business to Randy Lerner. RL wants the club to become self-sustainable and has made decisions so the club operates as such.

I think you need to come to terms with these realities and remember it is not a vendetta against Big_John_10 on Villa Talk.

An unfair argument? If you're not comparing to other clubs then what's the point? The bottom line is we are no better of than when under Doug compared to other teams. Who cares that its improved because more money is coming into the game when its giving us no advantage over other teams. 

You could select any team to compare us with to prove your point that Lerner is the worst owner ever. I am not interested in Randy Lerner, I just care about his relationship with Aston Villa. I want us to become better but I am realistic about the situation. 

There is a definite improvement in that area of the club and I was trying to acknowledge that out of fairness. I was demonstrating the improvement made by the club since the take over and I provided examples to support my argument. We are commercially better than we were under Ellis, it is hard to deny, especially when you provide no examples to the contrary. If you wish to research the commercial aspects further to compare with other clubs, feel free. I am sure you be able to find something that supports your belief.

I think you are also confusing TV and Broadcasting revenue with commercial income, it is recorded separately. Who cares? Well I do. I want to know the club is trying to boost income so we can become be competitive again without relying largely on Lerner or any other benefactor. It is vital to increase income, especially if we are to become a sustainable club and progress up the league.

You're not being reasonable, your ignoring facts to paint a picture of a good owner. I'm not threatened I just think he's been terrible as an owner.

I have tried to assess Lerner's ownership by judging him since 2006 and being balanced about the current situation. I criticised Lerner in my original post that I made, I think he has made some woeful decisions but I do not accept he has given up on the club. I will criticise Lerner's leadership in the future, if I feel there is good reason to do so. But I will not be basing my perspective on bitterness. I have nothing personal against Randy Lerner.

You are fully entitled to believe Randy has been "terrible as an owner". But I think you need to come to terms with a few realities about Randy Lerner and Aston Villa. 

I'm excited by the team improving and doing well. Not by mediocrity so a billionaire can make sure he's OK.

 

I have never denied the last three years have not been terrible for supporters and that has been the result of Lerner's decision making, I accept that as fact. I am still of the opinion that Lerner is trying to make Aston Villa "ok" rather than himself. Allowing Lambert to overhaul the squad for the long term was a step in the right direction IMO, we have made steady progress.