WooJung

 

 

Must be watching a different game to people thinking he is "terrible".

 

Constantly works his arse off  - he headed away a ball out to Kramaric during a Leicester counter attack.  That's right, a counter attack and he still got back - and makes the kind of runs that I could only dream about seeing Benteke make.  Composed finish when offside as well.

 

I like him.  He offers more than Agbonlahor and links well with whoever plays in midfield.  He's our best forward currently (not that that's saying much ).

I'm sorry but this Lambertesque view of being good is the main reason we have been so dire going forward.

 

 

Lambertesque how exactly?

 

Hard work over ability. You need to find a compromise between the two. Lambert never really seemed to go for the most skillful players, just for those who were hard workers.

Must be watching a different game to people thinking he is "terrible".

 

Constantly works his arse off  - he headed away a ball out to Kramaric during a Leicester counter attack.  That's right, a counter attack and he still got back - and makes the kind of runs that I could only dream about seeing Benteke make.  Composed finish when offside as well.

 

I like him.  He offers more than Agbonlahor and links well with whoever plays in midfield.  He's our best forward currently (not that that's saying much ).

I'm sorry but this Lambertesque view of being good is the main reason we have been so dire going forward.

Weiman is an anti-footballer.

How on earth he gets to play in the Premier League is beyond me. That touch is something you don't even see in pub players.

Cleverly breaking our counter with an awful pass, neither to Benteke nor to Delph.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But he can control a football, of course he's no Hazard where the ball is going to stick to him like glue every time it comes his way - the problem is people's minds have been made up and when a game comes where he will miscontrol maybe 1 out of 10 passes, its the 1 that people remember and crucify him for. Benteke has been infinitely more wasteful this season, but again, that's blamed on a "lack of confidence and mismanagement"

The problem I believe stems from how both players began their careers, Gabby was always seen as a sprinter, nothing more - I think even MON or one of the coaches at the time said that when he made his debut he really couldn't play football, just run in a straight line - but that was said as a precursor to how far he's come along since then and developed his game - but since that's the opinion that people naturally formed when he started playing, even when he got better people seemed to just expect the good performances to be 'more luck than judgement' and waited for him to inevitably make another mistake so they could say "I told you so". Now he's career has been seriously threatened as a result of this mismanagement the "I knew he was awful straight away" people are in with a vengeance, no mention of him constantly being played out of position.

You compare to Benteke who's first season he was like a freight train destroying teams and scoring goals for fun before losing his form - form that is still lost 2 years later, and everyone is more inclined to think the poor form is nothing more than a blip, its not his fault, how could ANYONE score goals or move 3 feet with this service, he was injured etc etc.

I'm not saying Gabby is a great player, far from it, but I do believe he has a place in this team as it stands. The chronic mismanagement excuse cannot only be applied to players we like, it has to apply to all and that includes Gabby. It really irks me when people will moan about how lazy he is and how he doesn't care when it was only 2 days ago against Hull, following another error in a long line of errors from Delph recently that he chased back 50/60 yards and made a tackle on the edge of our own box - while playing as a striker!

He isn't a gifted player but he does work hard and I feel that is the level of commitment that we need while entrenched in a relegation battle and should be applauded. Instead it gets ignored and he's berated because he missed a pass once in the game - I can all but guarantee that had that been Benteke, and it was Benteke that chased 50/60 yards back towards his own goal to make a tackle on a striker charging towards our goal, with the rest of his performance being identical it would be all people were talking about on here, how it proves that he's not lazy, proves it is Lamberts tactics after all etc etc.

Something else to consider from this season

Games involving Gabby - Pld 23, Won, 5, Drawn 6, Lost 12, GF 9, GA 16, Pts 21 =

0.91 pts per game

22% win ratio

0.39 goals scored per game

Personal record - Played 23 - Goals 3 = (0.130 goals per game)

(remember he has not played up front for the majority of those games either, playing out of position on the wing)

Games involving Benteke - Pld 16, Won 2, Drawn 3, Lost 11, GF 4, GA 11, Pts 9

0.56 pts per game

13% win ratio

0.25 goals scored per game

Personal record - Played 16 - Goals 2 = (0.125 goals per game)

(playing as the figurehead central striker)

We have been consistently better as a team with Gabby in it than with Benteke in it...the two goalscoring records this season are virtually identical despite one being a winger at least 60% of the time and the other playing as a striker 100% of the time, who do you think has taken more stick?

If you remove the first 4 games of the season (in which we massively overachieved) from the equation how does Gabby's contribution to results look like? I think you will agree that the those games are in no possible way a reflection of our season.

And Gabby hasn't come back from a bad injury.

Well sure you can remove the stats that don't suit your argument all you want I suppose, still doesn't make them any less valid.

I agree with the injury excuse, but it is still an excuse, same as the poor tactics or no service or mismanagement excuse. With Benteke all people look for is excuses as to why he isn't playing well, with Gabby all people see is that he's not playing well and instantly hate him for it, even though you could easily argue that Gabby has a lot more valid excuses than Benteke does.

Again I'll clarify, I'm not saying I think he's better than Benteke, I'm simply saying he's putting in far more effort and currently performing far better than Benteke and gets nothing but hate for it.

Give me a choice of a world class player like Ronaldo sulking around doing piss all every match or a bang average grafter like Harewood running his arse off and at least doing his absolute best every match I'll take Harewood every time (especially if his recent record is actually better, as Gabbys is now). A player can't really control how good/crap they are, what they can control is the effort they put in, that's why I'll defend players like Gabby and Weimann. They don't pick the team, they can't suddenly make themselves as good as Ronaldo, but they do their best for the team. Benteke? When he starts putting some effort in I'll defend him too

It's not that they don't suit my argument, it's that it's a case in which the WHOLE team overperformed and isn't a fair reflection of the situation. You can take a brief spell of games to prove anything you like, it's as if back then you said that we were the second best team in the country just because we were second in the league. If Heskey managed to score a hattrick against Bayern, that wouldn't be enough to make him a prolific striker, and that's all I was saying.

Ok but I'm looking at stats over the course of the whole season, not picking and choosing the best or worst ones throughout it. And I'm not trying to prove that he is a prolific striker, because a) he rarely plays as a striker and he is clearly not prolific. I'm simply saying he is bringing more to the team this season than Benteke.

Is it not odd that in a team where everyone except the defence has been crap we as fans will put that down to "poor management and tactics making them under perform" with players we like (Delph, Benteke) and "crap players who are playing at the top of their game and are just rubbish" with players we don't like (Gabby, Weimann, Cleverley).

If ALL the attacking players are playing rubbish that's down to tactics, in the same way that all the defence playing well except Lowton and Richardson that's not down to tactics, because they're fine for everyone else, it's just Lowton and Richardson not being good enough. If everyone attack minded was playing well and Gabby wasn't, that's not a tactical thing because it's working for everyone else, but that isn't the case, they're all playing badly and therefore they all get to use the same excuse, not just the ones that everyone likes

Sure, but I hope you will agree that it's very likely that had we had Benteke in those games instead of Gabby, the way the whole team played would have made Benteke's stats look better. Thing is, using team stats (I realize you also used individual stats) to make a point about one or 2 players doesn't really work. If you look at Gil's stats in the PL games he played they won't look all that good.

Sure, that could have been the case, but we'll never know for sure and Benteke has been so poor many times this season I firmly believe he has been a large hindrance to the team.

I wasn't putting the stats up to prove Gabby has been great, I don't actually think Gabbys been any good at all this season, in previous years I've always thought of him as an important player as he does so much selfless work for the team, his goalscoring stats have never been great, but that's not his game (bit like goals were never Heskeys thing but he was still excellent for every team he's played for). I do think though that this season he has suffered in the same way the rest of our attacking players have, so to single out him or Andi for not being good enough while allowing Benteke off the hook because of tactics is a cop out. They've all been playing under the same conditions and all playing poorly, at least Gabby and Andi have put some effort in

 

I think Gabby's lack of ability has been just as much of a hinderance, so I guess that's we disagree. I have nothing positive to say about Benteke's attitude, and from what I've seen from him I must say I rather dislike him as a professional and as a person. The fact alone that a player who goes on strike to earn himself a move is disgusting.

That said, if anyone is to take us out of this mess I think that Benteke's ability certainly can (as it already has done), whereas Gabby's workrate (which I think you overestimate) won't. He's got 4 league goals in the last 12 months!

 

 

 

 

But he can control a football, of course he's no Hazard where the ball is going to stick to him like glue every time it comes his way - the problem is people's minds have been made up and when a game comes where he will miscontrol maybe 1 out of 10 passes, its the 1 that people remember and crucify him for. Benteke has been infinitely more wasteful this season, but again, that's blamed on a "lack of confidence and mismanagement"

The problem I believe stems from how both players began their careers, Gabby was always seen as a sprinter, nothing more - I think even MON or one of the coaches at the time said that when he made his debut he really couldn't play football, just run in a straight line - but that was said as a precursor to how far he's come along since then and developed his game - but since that's the opinion that people naturally formed when he started playing, even when he got better people seemed to just expect the good performances to be 'more luck than judgement' and waited for him to inevitably make another mistake so they could say "I told you so". Now he's career has been seriously threatened as a result of this mismanagement the "I knew he was awful straight away" people are in with a vengeance, no mention of him constantly being played out of position.

You compare to Benteke who's first season he was like a freight train destroying teams and scoring goals for fun before losing his form - form that is still lost 2 years later, and everyone is more inclined to think the poor form is nothing more than a blip, its not his fault, how could ANYONE score goals or move 3 feet with this service, he was injured etc etc.

I'm not saying Gabby is a great player, far from it, but I do believe he has a place in this team as it stands. The chronic mismanagement excuse cannot only be applied to players we like, it has to apply to all and that includes Gabby. It really irks me when people will moan about how lazy he is and how he doesn't care when it was only 2 days ago against Hull, following another error in a long line of errors from Delph recently that he chased back 50/60 yards and made a tackle on the edge of our own box - while playing as a striker!

He isn't a gifted player but he does work hard and I feel that is the level of commitment that we need while entrenched in a relegation battle and should be applauded. Instead it gets ignored and he's berated because he missed a pass once in the game - I can all but guarantee that had that been Benteke, and it was Benteke that chased 50/60 yards back towards his own goal to make a tackle on a striker charging towards our goal, with the rest of his performance being identical it would be all people were talking about on here, how it proves that he's not lazy, proves it is Lamberts tactics after all etc etc.

Something else to consider from this season

Games involving Gabby - Pld 23, Won, 5, Drawn 6, Lost 12, GF 9, GA 16, Pts 21 =

0.91 pts per game

22% win ratio

0.39 goals scored per game

Personal record - Played 23 - Goals 3 = (0.130 goals per game)

(remember he has not played up front for the majority of those games either, playing out of position on the wing)

Games involving Benteke - Pld 16, Won 2, Drawn 3, Lost 11, GF 4, GA 11, Pts 9

0.56 pts per game

13% win ratio

0.25 goals scored per game

Personal record - Played 16 - Goals 2 = (0.125 goals per game)

(playing as the figurehead central striker)

We have been consistently better as a team with Gabby in it than with Benteke in it...the two goalscoring records this season are virtually identical despite one being a winger at least 60% of the time and the other playing as a striker 100% of the time, who do you think has taken more stick?

If you remove the first 4 games of the season (in which we massively overachieved) from the equation how does Gabby's contribution to results look like? I think you will agree that the those games are in no possible way a reflection of our season.

And Gabby hasn't come back from a bad injury.

Well sure you can remove the stats that don't suit your argument all you want I suppose, still doesn't make them any less valid.

I agree with the injury excuse, but it is still an excuse, same as the poor tactics or no service or mismanagement excuse. With Benteke all people look for is excuses as to why he isn't playing well, with Gabby all people see is that he's not playing well and instantly hate him for it, even though you could easily argue that Gabby has a lot more valid excuses than Benteke does.

Again I'll clarify, I'm not saying I think he's better than Benteke, I'm simply saying he's putting in far more effort and currently performing far better than Benteke and gets nothing but hate for it.

Give me a choice of a world class player like Ronaldo sulking around doing piss all every match or a bang average grafter like Harewood running his arse off and at least doing his absolute best every match I'll take Harewood every time (especially if his recent record is actually better, as Gabbys is now). A player can't really control how good/crap they are, what they can control is the effort they put in, that's why I'll defend players like Gabby and Weimann. They don't pick the team, they can't suddenly make themselves as good as Ronaldo, but they do their best for the team. Benteke? When he starts putting some effort in I'll defend him too

It's not that they don't suit my argument, it's that it's a case in which the WHOLE team overperformed and isn't a fair reflection of the situation. You can take a brief spell of games to prove anything you like, it's as if back then you said that we were the second best team in the country just because we were second in the league. If Heskey managed to score a hattrick against Bayern, that wouldn't be enough to make him a prolific striker, and that's all I was saying.

Ok but I'm looking at stats over the course of the whole season, not picking and choosing the best or worst ones throughout it. And I'm not trying to prove that he is a prolific striker, because a) he rarely plays as a striker and he is clearly not prolific. I'm simply saying he is bringing more to the team this season than Benteke.

Is it not odd that in a team where everyone except the defence has been crap we as fans will put that down to "poor management and tactics making them under perform" with players we like (Delph, Benteke) and "crap players who are playing at the top of their game and are just rubbish" with players we don't like (Gabby, Weimann, Cleverley).

If ALL the attacking players are playing rubbish that's down to tactics, in the same way that all the defence playing well except Lowton and Richardson that's not down to tactics, because they're fine for everyone else, it's just Lowton and Richardson not being good enough. If everyone attack minded was playing well and Gabby wasn't, that's not a tactical thing because it's working for everyone else, but that isn't the case, they're all playing badly and therefore they all get to use the same excuse, not just the ones that everyone likes

 

Sure, but I hope you will agree that it's very likely that had we had Benteke in those games instead of Gabby, the way the whole team played would have made Benteke's stats look better. Thing is, using team stats (I realize you also used individual stats) to make a point about one or 2 players doesn't really work. If you look at Gil's stats in the PL games he played they won't look all that good.

 

 

But he can control a football, of course he's no Hazard where the ball is going to stick to him like glue every time it comes his way - the problem is people's minds have been made up and when a game comes where he will miscontrol maybe 1 out of 10 passes, its the 1 that people remember and crucify him for. Benteke has been infinitely more wasteful this season, but again, that's blamed on a "lack of confidence and mismanagement"

The problem I believe stems from how both players began their careers, Gabby was always seen as a sprinter, nothing more - I think even MON or one of the coaches at the time said that when he made his debut he really couldn't play football, just run in a straight line - but that was said as a precursor to how far he's come along since then and developed his game - but since that's the opinion that people naturally formed when he started playing, even when he got better people seemed to just expect the good performances to be 'more luck than judgement' and waited for him to inevitably make another mistake so they could say "I told you so". Now he's career has been seriously threatened as a result of this mismanagement the "I knew he was awful straight away" people are in with a vengeance, no mention of him constantly being played out of position.

You compare to Benteke who's first season he was like a freight train destroying teams and scoring goals for fun before losing his form - form that is still lost 2 years later, and everyone is more inclined to think the poor form is nothing more than a blip, its not his fault, how could ANYONE score goals or move 3 feet with this service, he was injured etc etc.

I'm not saying Gabby is a great player, far from it, but I do believe he has a place in this team as it stands. The chronic mismanagement excuse cannot only be applied to players we like, it has to apply to all and that includes Gabby. It really irks me when people will moan about how lazy he is and how he doesn't care when it was only 2 days ago against Hull, following another error in a long line of errors from Delph recently that he chased back 50/60 yards and made a tackle on the edge of our own box - while playing as a striker!

He isn't a gifted player but he does work hard and I feel that is the level of commitment that we need while entrenched in a relegation battle and should be applauded. Instead it gets ignored and he's berated because he missed a pass once in the game - I can all but guarantee that had that been Benteke, and it was Benteke that chased 50/60 yards back towards his own goal to make a tackle on a striker charging towards our goal, with the rest of his performance being identical it would be all people were talking about on here, how it proves that he's not lazy, proves it is Lamberts tactics after all etc etc.

Something else to consider from this season

Games involving Gabby - Pld 23, Won, 5, Drawn 6, Lost 12, GF 9, GA 16, Pts 21 =

0.91 pts per game

22% win ratio

0.39 goals scored per game

Personal record - Played 23 - Goals 3 = (0.130 goals per game)

(remember he has not played up front for the majority of those games either, playing out of position on the wing)

Games involving Benteke - Pld 16, Won 2, Drawn 3, Lost 11, GF 4, GA 11, Pts 9

0.56 pts per game

13% win ratio

0.25 goals scored per game

Personal record - Played 16 - Goals 2 = (0.125 goals per game)

(playing as the figurehead central striker)

We have been consistently better as a team with Gabby in it than with Benteke in it...the two goalscoring records this season are virtually identical despite one being a winger at least 60% of the time and the other playing as a striker 100% of the time, who do you think has taken more stick?

If you remove the first 4 games of the season (in which we massively overachieved) from the equation how does Gabby's contribution to results look like? I think you will agree that the those games are in no possible way a reflection of our season.

And Gabby hasn't come back from a bad injury.

Well sure you can remove the stats that don't suit your argument all you want I suppose, still doesn't make them any less valid.

I agree with the injury excuse, but it is still an excuse, same as the poor tactics or no service or mismanagement excuse. With Benteke all people look for is excuses as to why he isn't playing well, with Gabby all people see is that he's not playing well and instantly hate him for it, even though you could easily argue that Gabby has a lot more valid excuses than Benteke does.

Again I'll clarify, I'm not saying I think he's better than Benteke, I'm simply saying he's putting in far more effort and currently performing far better than Benteke and gets nothing but hate for it.

Give me a choice of a world class player like Ronaldo sulking around doing piss all every match or a bang average grafter like Harewood running his arse off and at least doing his absolute best every match I'll take Harewood every time (especially if his recent record is actually better, as Gabbys is now). A player can't really control how good/crap they are, what they can control is the effort they put in, that's why I'll defend players like Gabby and Weimann. They don't pick the team, they can't suddenly make themselves as good as Ronaldo, but they do their best for the team. Benteke? When he starts putting some effort in I'll defend him too

 

It's not that they don't suit my argument, it's that it's a case in which the WHOLE team overperformed and isn't a fair reflection of the situation. You can take a brief spell of games to prove anything you like, it's as if back then you said that we were the second best team in the country just because we were second in the league. If Heskey managed to score a hattrick against Bayern, that wouldn't be enough to make him a prolific striker, and that's all I was saying.

But he can control a football, of course he's no Hazard where the ball is going to stick to him like glue every time it comes his way - the problem is people's minds have been made up and when a game comes where he will miscontrol maybe 1 out of 10 passes, its the 1 that people remember and crucify him for. Benteke has been infinitely more wasteful this season, but again, that's blamed on a "lack of confidence and mismanagement"

 

The problem I believe stems from how both players began their careers, Gabby was always seen as a sprinter, nothing more - I think even MON or one of the coaches at the time said that when he made his debut he really couldn't play football, just run in a straight line - but that was said as a precursor to how far he's come along since then and developed his game - but since that's the opinion that people naturally formed when he started playing, even when he got better people seemed to just expect the good performances to be 'more luck than judgement' and waited for him to inevitably make another mistake so they could say "I told you so". Now he's career has been seriously threatened as a result of this mismanagement the "I knew he was awful straight away" people are in with a vengeance, no mention of him constantly being played out of position.

 

You compare to Benteke who's first season he was like a freight train destroying teams and scoring goals for fun before losing his form - form that is still lost 2 years later, and everyone is more inclined to think the poor form is nothing more than a blip, its not his fault, how could ANYONE score goals or move 3 feet with this service, he was injured etc etc.

 

I'm not saying Gabby is a great player, far from it, but I do believe he has a place in this team as it stands. The chronic mismanagement excuse cannot only be applied to players we like, it has to apply to all and that includes Gabby. It really irks me when people will moan about how lazy he is and how he doesn't care when it was only 2 days ago against Hull, following another error in a long line of errors from Delph recently that he chased back 50/60 yards and made a tackle on the edge of our own box - while playing as a striker!

 

He isn't a gifted player but he does work hard and I feel that is the level of commitment that we need while entrenched in a relegation battle and should be applauded. Instead it gets ignored and he's berated because he missed a pass once in the game - I can all but guarantee that had that been Benteke, and it was Benteke that chased 50/60 yards back towards his own goal to make a tackle on a striker charging towards our goal, with the rest of his performance being identical it would be all people were talking about on here, how it proves that he's not lazy, proves it is Lamberts tactics after all etc etc.

 

Something else to consider from this season

 

Games involving Gabby - Pld 23, Won, 5, Drawn 6, Lost 12, GF 9, GA 16, Pts 21 =

 

0.91 pts per game

22% win ratio

0.39 goals scored per game

Personal record - Played 23 - Goals 3 = (0.130 goals per game)

(remember he has not played up front for the majority of those games either, playing out of position on the wing)

 

Games involving Benteke - Pld 16, Won 2, Drawn 3, Lost 11, GF 4, GA 11, Pts 9

 

0.56 pts per game

13% win ratio

0.25 goals scored per game

Personal record - Played 16 - Goals 2 = (0.125 goals per game)

(playing as the figurehead central striker)

 

We have been consistently better as a team with Gabby in it than with Benteke in it...the two goalscoring records this season are virtually identical despite one being a winger at least 60% of the time and the other playing as a striker 100% of the time, who do you think has taken more stick?

If you remove the first 4 games of the season (in which we massively overachieved) from the equation how does Gabby's contribution to results look like? I think you will agree that the those games are in no possible way a reflection of our season.

And Gabby hasn't come back from a bad injury.

The fact that we were rubbish without him doesn't make him less rubbish.

I don't think he's ever shown anything to suggest that he can make it at the top level.

Get him back in the starting 11. Weimann and Gabby are painful to watch.

It doesn't even matter if we get a good manager. I would welcome almost ANY manager right now, as long as it would show the fans and players that there is desire for change. The players have no faith in Lambert (and rightly so), and any manager that could motivate the players would be an improvement on this fool.

What's the point in having him on the pitch?

Wouldn't you rather have had Benteke on the end of that cross?

Westwood >Cleverley

I'd take Salifou over Cleverley

That's whgat you get for playing a high line against Chelsea. Idiotic team management.

Lambert Out. Just get the hell out.

Great ball by westwood.

Anyone reckon Man. United inserted a clause in the deal where we get fined or they get a bit extra if we don't start him, there's been examples before of loan deals that have been agreed like that.

 

Can only think that's the case as he starts every friggin game!

Or Lamber hasn't got a clue.

 

I wouldn't wish any player an injury, but it does seem it's almost always good/important players who get injured. Rubbish players who keep being picked in spite of being rubbish (Cleverley, Agbonlahor, Weimann) are always fit, and even if they do pick up an injury it's always something that will keep them out for no more than 2 games.

 

We'd be seriously screwed if our top scorer was injured

 

3 league goals this season, 5 last season. Very impressive.

I never excpected him to start. After all, Gil didn't start against Liverpool and you didn't even have the excuse that he wasn't match fit.

"But he had just arrived, he hadn't adapted to the tactics yet"  What tactics?

Let's hope he does well.

I wouldn't wish any player an injury, but it does seem it's almost always good/important players who get injured. Rubbish players who keep being picked in spite of being rubbish (Cleverley, Agbonlahor, Weimann) are always fit, and even if they do pick up an injury it's always something that will keep them out for no more than 2 games.

I would be glad for him to stay here for a couple of extra seasons (as long as he stays on reasonable wages, and I realize it's a big if), he can be a huge asset if fit. As long as the manager (weather it's Lambert or not) has the balls to play those who are more deserving (Clark and Okore as things currently stand). Injuries and suspensions are something we must face. Baker (who is also injury prone) has shown signs of improvement but it's still be too early to judge weather he is ready or not, and Senderos has had even worse injury problems than Vlaar.

When you have a clear 1 vs 1 chance against the keeper, as good as he might be, it's your job to score and you are to blame for the miss.

To people saying he should be dropped, who should we replace him with?