DelboyVilla

What position should we be in? Say we finish 12th-13th and comfortably away from relegation worries, should he still be sacked because we play (subjectively) awful football which will not take the club forward? The fact remains that, he would be achieving his goal with change to spare...and that there is no moving forward under the current ownership.

Personally I can't see us finishing anywhere near 12th-13th if we continue to play the way we do? For us to finsih 12th-13th would require a significant improvement in our play and then Lambert will have earned our continuing with him.

 

 

Randy Lerner is like a chameleon he has changed...The first 4 years were very much different from the last 4 years....The first 4 were not austerity....the second 4 years was and very much as a result of the problems attributed to buying and selling of players in the that period.

 

If I was comparing Aston villa with Everton.....I would be more inclined to attribute their success over us on the basis of their managers than the owners. If you say that they have spent more on individuals than us, you would be right.... but is that due to the prudency of the managers sales or the chairmans pocket?

 

No I know that the first 4 years weren't but as I've already stated, it was the lack of financial control in those years by Lerner that set the conditions under which the managers were forced to work for the next 4 years. Terrible management of the club by Lerner.

 

That means Moyes was provided with a far more stable environment in which a football club could be built. 

 

Yes the success Everton had on the pitch was down to Moyes but I'm baffled how anyone can't see the different between how Everton and Villa have been run and the fact that it has a barring on what happens on the football side of the club. 

 

You talk about prudence of managers but it isn't for managers to budget/set budgets that is for those above them, if you keep giving any manager money he is likely to go and spend it unless its Wenger obviously.

Yes our managers have wasted money compared to Moyes but that is going to happen when you chop and change players and when you lurch in styles of manager from O'Neill to Houllier to McLeish. 

 

 

TRO, (not looking to point score so please don't view it as such although based on our discussion to date I'm sure you won't) I just wanted to pick this discussion up from a few pages back.

 

You may or may not have seen the latest Everton financial results posted, if not take a look they make for startling viewing in comparison to ours. I won't post them here as its not a thread about them but you can find them easily enough.

 

When you read them though you can see the level of financial control that has been exercised since Kenwright took over and which was so conspicuous in its absence in the early years of Randy Lerner. I would also argue that the seemingly widely held belief, that the poor financial management of the club ended with the O'Neill departure is wrong and that it continued through the short lived and ill fated Houllier era and McLeish appointment as the signing of Bent (yes I know we needed it and he kept us up) and later Given on a 5 year deal were, in the wider context of the finances of the club, utter madness.

 

Just take a look at their profit, their wage to revenue ratio and the other factors in their results which contribute to them being far far better run than us over a prolonged period of time.

 

Yes, I accept that some will argue that their financial performance is a direct consequence of their managerial appointments and performances and without question there is an element of truth in that. However more true I believe, is that in a modern football club, the financial platform, control and resources are in some ways more important than the manager at the helm and dictate or strongly influence the impact a manager can have.

 

We've had a succession of managers now that have been tasked with maintaining PL football, rebuilding a squad, reducing wages and net spend. That is what I'm talking about when I talk about the condition set by those running a club for those tasked with running the football team. Oh and while having to push numerous players out the doors on free transfer's because they couldn't be sold and seemingly couldn't be afforded any more.

 

That is without getting into all the behind the scenes like dealing with contracts and contract extensions, player sales and purchases or scouts and scouting budgets.

 

Would Everton have allowed themselves to get into the situation we are with Delph? I rather suspect not.

 

I'm not absolving Lambert from blame or any who went before him but the conditions each manager have worked under have been significant factors for each and a consistent issue throughout Lerner's time here.

 

That is why I have long held him chiefly responsible for our performance and demise and will continue to do so, I don't expect everyone to agree entirely or even at all in some cases but hopefully at least you now understand my position a little more and the things I think that support it.

 

As I say, take a look at those Everton results they will make for an interesting comparison when ours come out early next year.

 

So it's Lerner's fault we were rubbish against QPR?

The only way it's Lerner's fault is he is the one who has employed Lambert for the past two and half years whilst dishing up dire turgid football week in week out?

Trent will you ever admitt that the product on the pitch is the responsibility of the current manager?

He like most of the team was very poor against QPR. Never thought we'd miss Hutton this time last year?

 

 

The squad is vastly improved, for much less money (good performance there from Lambert), but he's assembled a group of better players that he's got playing worse than the ones that were in before them.

 

Yes, he's done a great job getting cost down, BUT that doesn't excuse the fact that he's built a squad that's better than the one he inherited, but he still cannot get the best out of them. Maybe he'd be better as a scout or in a developmental role, because although he seems to be alright at spotting players for good prices it's becoming increasingly apparent he doesn't have the foggiest notion how to use them once they're signed

 

 

FWIW, this is an excellent post and one which I (an apparent "Lambert supporter") completely agree with.  The test was always this season.  I've been saying for ages that, for me, he's got until this Christmas.  He's had financial restrictions etc. etc. but this is now a squad that has been developed over 2 seasons - the crap (for the most part) has been rid of.

 

We should be seeing at least some improvement, but we're currently not.  I'm actually not fussed about losing 5 games in a row given the teams we've played, but the manner of the defeats have been poor.  Similarly, in beating Stoke, we didn't play that well - just shut them out.  Hull and Liverpool were good performances and the ball retention against Q.P.R. was good too.  Outside of that, not much cheer.  Lambert has been unlucky with injures, of course.  We're a side that is massively reliant on Benteke and, whilst this is partly down to transfers etc., I don't particularly blame Lambert for that.  However, the team should still be performing, with the ball, better than it has been.

 

I don't want Lambert sacked right now and I'd like him to succeed at the club as he seems to be a pretty humble guy with the interests of the club at heart (which seems quite rare these days).  Time is running out though.  There simply has to be an improvement this season and it needs to start now.

 

 

 

Edit:  Although you do say "vastly improved", which is a bit of a stretch I think

 

That's a fair post Bobszy. Unlike you I would get rid now but I also realise that Lerner is an idiot and we are all get to see what happens up to Christmas where we will have played most sides once. This is the best indication of where we stand with Lambert.

There are glaringly obvious areas that need addressed and he needs to earn his coin and do his job properly very quickly. He needs to kick Gabby and Andi up the arse by dropping them and not letting them think they are automatic starters. He needs to sort out the midfield shape and get Cleverley off the wing! We need to improve on crosses and set pieces!

I really wanted Lambert to succeed but I worry he will never 'get' whats needed to be done!

 

No to Sherwood

 

No to foreigner

 

Yes to Pulis, ask him to get us through this season in relative safety and move on in the summer.

 

Then bring in Klinnsman or DeBoer!

 

 

You mis read my timeline?

Klinnsman and Deboer only come with the billionarie oligarch!!

_{Paul Lambert and a 4 year contract?}

 

He froze out most of the players from the McLeish era that he hadn't already sold, and the only ones he used were mainly the academy graduates (who were on a much lower wage for some weird reason). I'll say this again, just because they were still in the squad (which means the wage bill would remain the same or increase as players are added to it) doesn't mean they were being utilized, whereas McLeish regularly used players like Petrov, Bent (off the back of scoring 18 PL goals the previous season), N'Zogbia (who he bought for 10M), a defence that was one of the best in the league just 2 seasons prior. This is without mentioning that he was given 20M to spend on 3 players in one window whereas Lambert spent roughly the same amount on 11 players etc etc. The 2 situations are not even remotely comparable.

And as I already alluded to, he wasn't forced to freeze them out which is why he started the season with them in the team. So my point stands, he had basically the same pool of players to choose from as McLeish, yet the perceptions of their two first seasons are totally contradictory.

 

Young and hungry was Lamberts idea both Lambert and Faulkner confirmed this at the time!

He failed miseribly and we got mostly young and shit!

Benteke is his only real bargain buy the rest are average or shit!

No to Sherwood

No to foreigner

Yes to Pulis, ask him to get us through this season in relative safety and move on in the summer.

Then bring in Klinnsman or DeBoer!

I'd like to see him playing as the left sided front man starting a bit wider than Gabby does when he's out there and pushing Cleverley towards the centre. This would hopefully mean better service to Benteke and help out Aly when going forward. A formation like this:-

                                                                         Guzan

Hutton                             Senderos                                                Vlaar                       Cissoko

                                                                      Sanchez

                                    Westwood                                                  Cleverley

           N'Zogbia                                                                                                Grealish

                                                                       Benteke

^{I think if we are going to play a front 3 again for the Spuds then the Zog needs to be on the right and Grealish on the left and drop both Gabby and Andi down to the bench.}

Pulis for me as he knows how to work with what he's got and can get instant results. Don't care if it's short term till the end of the season and a mid table finish. The new owner can sort out our superstar manager when he get's here!

 

 

I have no idea of what managers are available or who would want to come. Like you Moyes and Pullis would be people I'd be looking to get in.

Don't get me wrong I think the real issue is Lerner and there's only so much we can achieve with him as the owner. But the awful football and poor results have gone on for too long.

Lambert currently does the same thing over and over again, I think we need a new approach. The atmosphere on Sunday will be hostile and again I think a new approach will change that.

I just don't see the point in playing awful football to barely survive.

 

 

Ok, that's a good start.  So now we know that you'd look at the managers I said, that's fine. 

 

So my next question is, do you think a new manager (whether it be Moyes, Pulis or someone else) would be able to play better and achieve better results?

 

But thank you for answering my question

 

I personally think that both Pullis and Moyes would be able to better prepare and set up the current side which is not as bad as some would have you believe.

 

 

here are just too many variables in one single game, never mind 10 to blame someone conclusively.

How about close to 100 games?

I don't think anyone is basing their opinion or feelings on a few games this season.

 

 

I think they are to be honest.  Again, if you're basing your opinions on 100 games, and looking at the bigger picture, you'll see that under the extreme restrictions that have been placed on Lambert, he's probably done about as well as he could do.

 

Exterme restrictions???? What a tight budget?? He's the only manager in the PL who had no pressure to get results or face the sack!! He's had it easy, even Wenger has had more pressure the Lambert and came closer to the sack!! Most of the restrictions and pressure Lamberts under are self inflicted due to his incompetance!!

 

 

What if I still have the opinion that I support the manager and that I do not think I am "wrong" to use your term .  Am I to believe that the converse of your post applies,  that there is shame in that and the only redemption I can get is bowing to a different opinion than I hold?

 

At this stage I still have support for the manager.  That is a stance I am entitled to hold ,  there is no shame in that either.

Indeed you are and I was merely challenging your stance, which is the basic purpose of a forum I believe.

As for 'being wrong', I was referring specifically to your claim that Lambert is the best manager we've had in the last 30 years. Do you still believe this? If yes, then may I ask your reasoning as to why?

 

I posted a long post some time back to justify that stance,  cant remember all of it but I'll try and do the same again.

 

The managerial appointments we have made in the last 30 years are

 

Turner

Mcneill

Taylor MK1

Venglos

Atkinson

Little

Gregory

Taylor Mk2

Oleary

Oneill

Houllier 

Mcleish

 

(I'm ignoring the interim and caretaker types like Aitken and Mcallister)

 

Each of those have operated in different circumstances and under differing strategies / philosophies and each have had unique circumstances and the changing football picture with which to contend as well so let me deal with them individually to show how I think Lamber stacks up.

 

Turner - Bought in in similar circumstances to Lambert to be honest.  A team that had been relatively successful but the owner wanting to cut back on costs and run it on the cheap brings in an up and coming manager with the spec of doing just that.  He reduced the wage bill and finally dismantled our champions and brought in largely up and coming players and then went on to sprinkle it with a bit odf experience.  He still actually went on a spending spree for the time he was operating in and outspent rivals.  Football at the time was not as cash rich or dominated by 3 or 4 clubs with the emphasis of trying to reach the top four so I would argue that he had easier circumstances within which to operate.  He failed and for me was not a person with the strength of character Lamber has.  Lamber is better than Turner IMO

 

Mcneill - Came in for a season and was woeful.  Lambert better than Mcneill

 

Taylor MK1 - The first real challenger to being one of our best appointments.  Graham came in after we had been relegated  but we were still a massive club.  Yes we were in a mess but far better than any team in the lower division IMO.  I do think he oversold our position at the time a little  and the reason for that was to play politics a bit with Ellis was was domineering and wanted to run things his way.  Graham's protestations over our position were exaggerated a little as a poke at Ellis.  He did bring us back,  not as champions.  And we did finish runners up as well as flirting with relegation,  but again the time was different and circumstances were easier for us.  He bought Cascarino when Sherringham would have won us the league!. 

 

Venglos - Foreign experiment number 1.  No contest Lambert wins for me.

 

Atkinson - Second real challenger.  Was flamboyant and so was his team.  Assembled a decent team on the back of the Platt money again at a time when it was not about money so much.  An aging manager though and so was his team.  It wasn't so much built for the future as for the immediate 3 years.  Won a trophy though and that doesearn him loads of brownie points.  He loses to Lambert in that Ron was more of a now manager and Lambert is more of a long term plan man,  IMO.  Close call here though

 

Little - Brought in as the game was changing,  won a trophy and we finished high in the league.  Spent huge amounts for us and at the time we were competing.  A definite build for the future man and for me the man who runs Lambert closest in the best managerial appointment stakes.  Its really close this and just a personal opinion for me on Lambo,  I could be persuaded though and Lambert could move down to second place.  His wastes on Collymore and Curcic do not help him.

 

Gregory - A bit wee a bit woo for me was JG.  Always just needed a couple more players.  Spent a fortune on the back of dwight yorke and although this will not be a popular opinion and those will disagree,  he did not spend it wisely.  he spent it on players for now,  more so than Ron did.  so 6M a piece for aging Merson and Dublin was basically sunk cost and never allowed us to recycle the cash.  Balaban,  Stone,  Kachloul,  Hadji. He was allowed to spend huge sums,  the kind of money Lambert would love to have I think.

 

Oleary - Not a nice man at all .  Never liked him crap manager Lambert is the better man by a mile and has a strategy which does not involve slagging the club off from top to bottom,  the letter to Ellis was more about Oleary than anything else,  we would not have that with Lambert.

 

Oneill - I loved the man and still do,  brilliant manager but was operating in a different world to Lambert.  Spent a huge amount of money,  but had to to play catch up.  One thing about Martin and I guess most successful people are the same,  he believed his own hype. Call it arrogance call it what you will  but I think you also have to be pragmatic enough to see your own faults and not believe you are always right.

 

Houllier - Failure. Just could not comprehend this appointment.  I think the word Dis was missing.

 

Mcleish - If I could not comprehend the appointment of Houllier then I am trying to block this one from my memory.  Not fit to lace the boots of Lambert IMO

 

Now I know some will come on and say about Mcleish and the results under him and show stats about them and how he may outscore Lambert etc etc,  but for me there's more to it than that.  He was a dreadful manager.  Other managers in this list will have better points total as well.

 

You know an opinion on the merits of a manager or how you rate them is largely subjective,  as is everything in football judgement really.   And i recognise my opinion on Lambert is in a minority of probably 1 on here.  But I still hold it.  Little and Taylor MK1 come close but I still think given the circumstances of the time,  where we were / are as a club at the time of appointment,  what strategy the managers were asked to work towards bearing all that and more in mind I rate Paul above the others.

 

Sure it may not work and sure he may leave the club in the near future I accept that.  But I truly believe given the circumstances some of the others had he would have out performed them and given where we were as a club and what was happening to us at the time he was appointed I am not sure any of the others could have done better or that there were other managers we could have got that could have done better

 

To be honest I've seen better arguments to justify Hilter being good for the Jews!

Complete one eyed twaddle!

 

Obviously not because then you entered a rubbish one of you own 

Sorry, here's my real one

 

Lambert sez "Lolz, we are wlel shit"

Then Keane is like "Ha. it's half past we r shit o'clock"

And the 4th Offishal goes "You guys are shit. Haz you been sacke dyet?"

 

Stevo that actually made me LOL!!!

My guess is that he was brought in to help us become a more attractive proposition for prospective buyers.

I'd like to see him try and sell us as a brand with the fans hating the manager?

Cancer and Ebola jokes.

 

Stay classy, VT.

It's no worse that what I got from the pro-Lambert camp when I criticised his new contract extension.

Lambert obviously has no self esteem or he would have resigned by now instead of holding out for the pay off!

See, this is a proper caption:

As Darren Bent passes by on the 9:34 to Sheppard's Bush he gazes out of the Window and witnesses Paul Lambert and his Ginger sidekick trying to sell a clearly upset Roy Keane a new i Watch

 

These aren't:

The 4th Offical says 'Sorry Mr Keane we can't take time off. You'll have to watch this shit like the rest of us for the full 90 minutes.'

 

 

Keane to fourth official "Are you seriously asking me how much time I would like adding on? I might be fecking tough but I'm not a fecking sadist".

 

Lambo joins in "Go on then, you heard the man! Tell the ref to blow that bloody whistle before ya get a backhander from me, you ginger tw*t!"

Must try harder

Com'on Stevo dazzle us with your wit then mate? We're waiting?

The 4th Offical says 'Sorry Mr Keane we can't take time off. You'll have to watch this shit like the rest of us for the full 90 minutes.'

Moyes? Pulis? Please no. It's just more of the same.

 

We need a real change at the club in how we approach our football. Can we look abroad? Please?

No! 

I have not been a Lambert supporter since the end of last season when I got completely pissed off with gutless displays by the team and was one of the few who dissented when he was given a contract extension and took a lot of abuse and collected a few points off the mods in the process. In fact IIRC I said my feelings re Lambert getting a new contract was akin to someone posting a dog turd through my letterbox. Hey the bully boys ganged up and told me to look at the first 4 games?

I am not coming on to say I told you so but ask what are we as fans going to do to rid our club of this cancerous tumour called Lambert?

Lerner is a inbred knob and won't sack him because of disasterous results? What therefore can we do to get this situation to change? We go a goal down on Sunday and the atmosphere is going to be poisionous, is this going to get the message across to Lerner?

I think our general tactics (I have no idea about the methods used in training, unlike many others) are fine to an extent but might not fully play to the "strengths" of the squad.  The biggest problem for me is that we don't have creative, attacking players.  Gabby, Weimann and N'Zogbia all do the odd thing well enough, but are nowhere near being creative enough - let alone consistent enough.

 

If we had, say, Stewart Downing and Ashley Young playing in those wide/wing forward areas instead of any combination of the above 3, I think we'd be a much better side.  Instead, we lack true quality in the final third.  As sexbelowsound hints, why haven't we really tried out a 4-4-2 or, hell, a 5-3-2?  If we don't have the creativity up there and we want to play counter-attacking football, double up on the attackers.  There are huge periods of games where our sole striker is completely isolated - which I doubt helps with concentration et al either.

 

Another huge concern of mine is that we don't use the ball well enough when we have it.  It's fine to be a counter-attacking team (lots of clubs play in that manner), but if you're rarely effective with the ball then it becomes a tremendous burden on the defence and a major problem overall.  I guess it might tie in with the Gabby/Weimann/N'Zogbia trio - some pace, some workrate but a distinct lack of skill - it might be a training ground issue but, whatever the cause, it certainly needs addressing quickly.

I think this is a first for me but hey ho credit where it's due--- Good post Bobzy!

 

It's a bit misleading though.

4 of them have financial might we could only dream of, spurs have London and Everton had 10 years of stability with moyes.

Its not really. We've been poorly run in a lot of ways. They haven't.

 

 

Weren't Everton pretty much skint at the turn of the century with fans wanting Kenwright out because he didn't spend anything?

 

Yes correct! Those toffee fans should walk an hour in our shoes?

They'd have something to moan about then!

 

This counter attack nonsense is starting to annoy me as well. It's not like we are even any good at it. None of our midfield are quick but Delph and Gabby is the only one with any real pace. When did we last score a good counter attack goal?

 

Lowton is a big miss to this system, he wasn't great at defending but he got forward and has more quality in crossing and passing than Hutton has. He put in a lot of good balls for Benteke. You can say the same on the other side with Bertrand missing.

 

Benteke has played one full game with those full backs, and as for Bertrand, he played about 4 games with CB and can't remember a single chance or goal he created for him.

 

Watching Benteke I think he prefers balls played to his feet, thigh or chest not hoofed up for to flick on the oppostions goalie? If we make more than 3 passes then we seem obliged for the 4th to be a hoof from Guzan. I've seen conference teams who pass the ball better than the current side? Yet funnily enough Delph, Westwood and Cleverley have all passed the ball sucessfully prior to playing under Lambert?

 

 

 

 

Randy Lerner is like a chameleon he has changed...The first 4 years were very much different from the last 4 years....The first 4 were not austerity....the second 4 years was and very much as a result of the problems attributed to buying and selling of players in the that period.

 

If I was comparing Aston villa with Everton.....I would be more inclined to attribute their success over us on the basis of their managers than the owners. If you say that they have spent more on individuals than us, you would be right.... but is that due to the prudency of the managers sales or the chairmans pocket?

 

No I know that the first 4 years weren't but as I've already stated, it was the lack of financial control in those years by Lerner that set the conditions under which the managers were forced to work for the next 4 years. Terrible management of the club by Lerner.

 

That means Moyes was provided with a far more stable environment in which a football club could be built. 

 

Yes the success Everton had on the pitch was down to Moyes but I'm baffled how anyone can't see the different between how Everton and Villa have been run and the fact that it has a barring on what happens on the football side of the club. 

 

You talk about prudence of managers but it isn't for managers to budget/set budgets that is for those above them, if you keep giving any manager money he is likely to go and spend it unless its Wenger obviously.

Yes our managers have wasted money compared to Moyes but that is going to happen when you chop and change players and when you lurch in styles of manager from O'Neill to Houllier to McLeish.

Great discussion lads. Hopefully we are at the start of a diiferent 4 year cycle with the lessons learnt from the previous 2!

Regardless of the pr coming from fox and lambert, i don't think lerner wants any part of building something new with this club.

Agreed. It's all designed to keep the fans quiet why he tries in vain to flog the club.

Let's hope we're not relegated before he manages to find a buyer, because make no mistake, he couldn't give a damn about our club.

 

Stupid little rich kid playing with Daddy's inheritance!! He could loose all his money he invested in us and it wouldn't make one jot of difference to his insulted life in a bubble of dollars.

And what does he do to make it all worse? Gives the worst manager ever another 4 years to ply his dogshit football onto us supporters. What a legacy!!