DaveAV1

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

I get the frustration from the fans, this stuff is woeful.

however,I get your post too and we did come down in a shocking state.....the difference, between us and Newcastle/ Norwich was colossal.

We was Div 1

The difference between us and Newcastle is still colossal!

2 minutes ago, CosmicVillan said:

I think it's we've made decent progress under Bruce and it's easy to forget how utterly low we sank last season.

With only half the points of Norwich above us, a minus 49 goal difference and we only scoring every one and a half games with the leakiest defence in the division we were basically almost twice as bad as the teams that came down with us. 

Not only were we failing on the pitch , we were failing as an organisation from the Chairman down. Turning around any organisation of this size once the decline has kicked in whether it's a football club or in a different sector is notoriously difficult ( look up my local hospital in Stafford for a prime example ) and it isn't just a case of throwing money at the problem, there's a much bigger picture at play and takes a long time to turn around. I believe Dr Tony understands this and quickly realised RDM was not the right character for this bruised and battered club. Bruce is a very affable character regardless of playing style and a " good man " that players & staff can relate to which is why he's still here. Capable of getting us promoted with the right personality to help nurture the club back to health.  

That we are comfortably mid table after two massive wobbles is a big turnaround from last season, we are only 5 points off Norwich who came down in much better shape. We have been completely dysfunctional for 4 or 5 seasons .....getting back to where we want to be is a process, and we are part way through that process. That Bruce is on record even during our winning streaks that the football is no what we want is a only positive in my view.  Next season I expect us to be further down the road in the ongoing rehabilitation of our once great club. Expect the playoffs..hope for automatic promotion.

Sorry I didn't realise we need a nice bloke who gets on with everyone. Here was me thinking we need a football manager who can organise, motivate, understand tactics and buy players who compliment the style he implements. That puts a whole new light on the situation. 

10 minutes ago, pacbuddies said:

Turgid football, crap manager, rinse and repeat for next season as those that say "who could do better" and "Bruce knows how to get out of this league" carry on supporting the unsupportable (don't think this is actually a word but it will do).

Unsupportable is a word and in this context spot on. Turgid and crap are also appropriate, sadly. 

7 minutes ago, andym said:

Under Bruce we've played one game, Brighton, where i thought we played very well for the full 90 minutes and controlled the game.

Aside from that the football has been shit, and we've won a load of games relying on a couple of players to pull rabbits out the hat.

People may say the result is all that matters and it doesn't matter if you play poor but win, but if you keep playing poor, it's going to bite you in the backside - just like over christmas, and just like the past 5 or so games.

We have no chance of playoffs playing like this next season. And as for Bruce saying he wants 4 or 5 more quality players - how expensive of a team do you want? You spent 20 million in January on players widely seen as top players in the Championship, and yet under you they look like they haven't kicked a ball before. 

How about you work on improving the players you have. Look at teams above us - full of players who if we got linked to them we would go who are they? Yet the managers of those teams manage to get them playing football far superior to us.

As Sunderland manager he bought 30 players in two and a half years! Stability yeah that's what he brings.....

The two obvious decisions are should he stay or should he go. The stay camp say he needs time and we don't need any more disruption. They reinforce this point by adding he needs a full preseason. The go camp think he's had enough time and he needs to go now. 

Whilst im still not totally decided  myself, I feel that with every passing game and no change to the football we see, I have at least one foot in the go camp. There is just no progress being made and to not try anything new today for me says we seem to be on the road to nowhere. If Bruce knows it's not good enough then why doesn't he do something to try to change it?

There is a risk changing managers, but it's an even bigger risk changing managers mid season. Then the new guy won't have had the advantage of the mythical magic of a full preseason. 

14 minutes ago, Dave J said:

Sid was a fantastic footballer I totally agree with you - however I honestly would not say he was world class - whilst Macca was in my humble opinion.

It's a nice choice to make isn't it? I'm not sure who my choice would be. Sid Cowans was wonderful to watch, fantastic energy and his passing sublime. David Platt said his ambition when at Villa was to make a run that Sid didn't spot, he never managed it. I'd throw Sir Brian into the mix too. The shear excitement watching him run with the ball and knowing that just about anything could happen. Macca was......., I don't have the descriptive powers. A very happy and healthy Birthday to you Macca 

8 minutes ago, jon_c said:

Was talking to someone yesterday about how we're not going down, but are miles away from the play offs, and they said "at least you can give the kids a run out."

I replied without pause, that there was absolutely no chance that Bruce would play any younger players. 

It's just not in his thinking as a manager, does anyone really think he'll ever nurture young players fully into the team?

Does anyone think he will nurture any players of any age?

Although the Guardian article is from 2011, the influx of more progressive and technically minded managers into the Championship since that was written, makes it all the more relevant and worrying. I'd tweet a link to the The Doc if I hadn't refused to move with the times...... 

I've had a whinge in the premature thread about this. Bruce hasn't selected a single academy player for the match day squad, not even on the bench. This is a dead rubber for us, surely an opportunity missed to have a look at future prospects. We're on the road to nowhere with this mentality. 

1 minute ago, OutByEaster? said:

There's a difference between giving a player experience because it helps us and giving a player some experience because it helps him when he's on the bench for a league 2 club in a couple of years time - if they were good enough, they'd be in the squad.

 

You don't think the club believe RHM is good enough? They made a big effort to get him signed up for a league 2 player. 

Just now, sir_gary_cahill said:

Easah Suliman? Rushian Hepburn-Murphy? Matija Sarkic?

If those players are all fit then it's criminal not to try at least one or two in a match like this. You can't claim RHM isn't ready for at least a run out. We're on the road to nowhere with this mentality. 

I agree on Hutton and I don't see Bree as an academy player anyway. I know there are injuries, but surely he could have found one young player, even if it's just for the experience of being on the bench?

Nothing to play for and not a single kid in the match day squad. Extremely disappointing. 

2 hours ago, Harry said:

By the way that's not a dig at anyone, just funny. I think the word we are searching for is polarised.

Guilty as charged!!

Cheers from the GH camp. Howls of derision from the TRO camp. Don't shoot the messenger. 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2011/nov/30/steve-bruce-sunderland-sacked

2 hours ago, TRO said:

So the managers old adage......" you're only as good as your players"...... is a red herring?

funny how the best managers, have the best players.

They look like the best players because they function as a team and their manager gets the best out of them. If finance has anything to do with it, we should already have most of the best players. 

10 hours ago, TRO said:

Yes Dave, era's do have to be taken in to consideration and they didn't have the restrictions of transfer windows......also the commercial side of the club is far more complex hence requiring further staff.

Despite the obvious changes that occur as football evolves, there are principles that rarely change.....in my view, it's those principles they were referring to.

when you have dropped as far as we have you cannot always buy players the ideal players you want you have to evolve towards them......thats what GT And TB was telling me.....if you remember, we bought a Frank Carradus and then Evolved to Des Bremner as a better version.

IMO some of us are forming our opinions on SB too soon......one window and no pre season is too soon to judge.

I am also of the opinion that the transfers in Jan was a bit rushed and it could materialise that the haste, which was inevitable under the circumstances, may need revisiting.

Transfer windows IMO opinion have slowed down the whole process of a massive demise and we just have to be patient.

If the manager can't see it or has no idea how to change it, I would be joining in with the SB out brigade.....my humble opinion is he still does not have the balance right and he knows it.....and will attempt to put it right in the summer.

just remember too, not every player comes off.....at any club and there are plenty of examples.

I agree the transfer window has changed things, generally in favour of the big spending clubs as usual. Chelsea have over 30 players out on loan letting other clubs develop them and take the risk, then keep the good ones. But that's a subject for another time. 

Using the example you gave of Frank Carradus and Des Bremner, I would agree with no disrespect to Frank, who was a fine player, that Des Bremner was an up grade. However I don't believe that either of those players were expensive or high profile. They were good players but most of us hadn't heard of before they arrived. They were bought to fit into a system that suited their style and they improved as players because they worked hard and knew what was expected of them. As opposed to a number of our January signings that were expensive, came with big reputations and with little thought of how we would utilise them and how they'd compliment the system. If indeed there is a system. 

22 hours ago, vreitti said:

This is another thing the I cannot understand. How on earth does a director, CEO or what not 'suit' implement an "Aston Villa way" of playing? Surely this has to come from the manager to begin with?

Well that's a bloody good question, which I can't answer. However that's more or less what the club said or implied and most people nod towards Southampton as a good example of how it's possible. 

I believe that the club appointed Bruce as a quick fix with the intention of finding the Aston Villa way once we'd solved the immediate problem of not being in the Prem. The Doc said as much in a tweet soon after Bruce's appointment, which said something along the lines, that he'd been impressed with him and he might even keep him beyond promotion. A back handed compliment if ever there was one!

5 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Who says they haven't? They did a ton of work in January to correct even Di Matteo's mistakes. 

The question is a simple one for me - do we act like a proper football club and give an experienced manager with a proven track record a pre season and a full summer window to bring it all together, or do we go all half arsed and chuck the baby out with the bathwater? Again. 

I'm sick of the revolving door. Bruce hasn't done a great job, merely an average one. However there is a decent defensive foundation to build on and we've stopped sinking. It's a start. 

Perhaps I should have said, "IF those who make the decisions etc". Listen I'm not saying sack him, and have said he will be our manager in August but I am concerned that he may not take us forward next season. Only time will tell and I hope that his experience will see us through a good preseason and all our worries are put to bed. 

55 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

You raise an interesting issue here around who have been our best performers.

Chester and Baker have been the preferred centre back pairing for most of the season and have built up a good understanding. Hutton has been here a long time and for me is doing what he has always done in giving his all the major difference being that he looks much better as we have dropped down a level. Taylor has slotted in nicely. Jedi has been a rock just by keeping things simple in front of the back four. All the players mentioned so far are defensive players and the only ones that have had to build up an understanding with those around them are Chester and Baker and they have hit it off.

The other player to have consistently shone this season is Kodjia. A more head down single minded forward you would struggle to find and for this reason he hasn't relied on having to link up with others and form a partnership.

That leads to the reason why I think others haven't produced for us yet. The likes of Hourihane, Hogan, Lansbury and McCormack games are reliant on those around them. They do rely on linking up with others, reading each others runs, playing off another player etc. Unfortunately building up those kind of relationships on the pitch takes time and it is for me the main reason why we have frequently looked disjointed. If we consider that Taylor, Lansbury, Hourihane, Hogan will be part of our best 10 outfield players at the moment then they have been here 3 months all trying to fit into a team amongst a handful of others who have been here for under a season. 

I fully expect after a full pre season together 4 or 5 players who have yet to find their feet to hit the ground running next season and us to look a much more cohesive unit. When you make the amount of changes we have over the last 9 months, something like 35 ins/outs, throw into the mix having two managers and numerous coaching staff, then as much as none of us want it to be the case it is little surprise that it is going to take time for it to come together.

I hope you're right Mark. There's a lot of faith being put in this summer's preseason. Steve Bruce has a huge turn round to make. At the moment he's being cut some slack as he's seen as sorting out someone else's mess and in a relatively short period of time. Pretty soon if improvements aren't made then the blame will be placed on his shoulders. It's a big summer for Steve and for AVFC, No pressure Brucie lad!

22 minutes ago, TRO said:

I read somewhere that other players were doing all the running at Barnsley and CH was taking all the plaudits.....now IF that is the case and the same with Lansbury that could be an explanation for not fixing the midfield.

I am not saying that is the case.....just quoting a mutation.

The midifield still does not look fixed to me......but there are oodles of opinions open for that.

I still have a quiet worry that the 2 CB's look less dominant when Jed is absent.....That concerns me......are they as good as we think they are or as good as the stats suggest, why if we are so dominant in defence do the 2 CB's push us forward like CB's of the past used to do.....and in doing so closing the gaps that the opposition thrive in?

I think there will be some surprising moves in the summer.

Well if that is obvious to fans, it's concerning that those who actually make the signings, whoever they might be, didn't notice themselves. 

6 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

 

Your time will come oh Great TRO of Patience

TRO is at about a quarter to patience, I'm about five to and GH is a week next Thursday!

25 minutes ago, TRO said:

I do understand the frustration everyone is experiencing and I would guess respectfully those that see the results only like me ( bought my ST for next year) find it easier to accept the turgid football.....because we wallow in the result only.

However, I am trying to understand with what Graham Told me and what Steve is doing to reconcile some kind of sense of it all.....I guess Steve has just tried to get the confidence in winning as his first priority to go in to next season with.

Incidently I had a similar conversation with Tony Barton too.....who echoed the same sentiments as GT

No one is right or wrong......some trust him to get it right like me.....and some don't and never did.

I take on board what those two guys told and I think Steve will get it right.

Its just everyones personal call on it.

ps When the time has gone past reasonable and there is no improvement, I may be agreeing with Grasshopper, who knows.

Whilst I'm not about to disagree with GT or TB, it was a different game in those days with regards to how clubs functioned. The manager was in charge of almost everything, where as now we have directors of football, CEOs and the like running the club and shaping the culture and direction they want their clubs to go in. At least they should be!