Neil

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

I've numbered your points (and omitted the irrelevant bit)

1. There is evidence to the contrary. Both Fox and Sherwood have said that's how it works. Plus, what i'm describing is surely the "norm" for most clubs, so the burden of proof isn't really on me.

2. But that's not a problem of the transfer committee. That's a problem of not having much money to spend, which is an entirely different issue. Lots of clubs operate on a budget. Most managers aren't able to buy the players they really want because they don't have enough money to spend. That's nothing to do with the scouts or the committee. That's to do with budget and you won't see me arguing for a second that we shouldn't be spending more money.

3. I brought Sherwood into it because he was the last manager we had who went through a transfer window and was the manager when this transfer committee nonsense was brought up (even though it's the same system I imagine we've been using for years). I agree the shoestring budget is the problem, not the committee. That was my point all along.
(and I didn't make up the news story. It was the story before Sherwood got sacked (or maybe just after) that said none of the players were his signings)

I'm at a small loss as to what you're disagreeing with now, there is little substance here.  You cite Fox as an example of "saying how it works", when all I've seen of his statements has been to confirm there is a transfer committee, that other clubs have them and the manager has to rubber stamp what comes of them.  I think I have eluded to most of these points already, maybe there is something more but I haven't seen him break down into deal about the process and financials.

Anyway, I take it that your main sticking point is you don't believe a manager can ask for a player to be rebuffed by the transfer committee because of costs...but you agree finance is a major player?  

I strongly do, I believe that any manager has targets of their own without any input from a committee.  They have targets in mind from players they have worked with / seen, or just formed through a simple fascination with football in general as any manager should have.  What you'll get with many other clubs who can afford it is managers coming in, then bringing along some of the players they've previously managed.  I can honestly see situations where Garde would like to bring in some players, discuss with the committee, only to be rebuffed on price and an alternative for the managers system be presented.

Players that come in are likely, in my opinion, to be strongly influenced by the transfer committee who will have a financial agenda to adhere to.

The players that come in as a result of this, again in my opinion, are likely to be a world apart from "his players".  That's hugely different to saying that he is going to end up with players he doesn't want, by the way, I don't believe that.  I just think the players he will end up with are going to be guided by the committee, and in many ways we're at the mercy of a good setup in this committee.  Even more so than a good transfer policy of the manager.

To this extent, problems we're facing now with the kind of player we have in the team are going to be prevalent even after Garde has rubber stamped the net result of the next committee recruitment drive.

I'd like to point out, though, that I don't think we did all bad in the last recruitment.  I like Amavi, Ayew and Vertout/few others show glimpses...it's just as much the fault of the existing players in the mix that are letting us down.

1 hour ago, lexicon said:

If we really were on a shoestring budget, there's no way we would have spent so much money on players this summer. Randy would have just kept the bulk on the Benteke money and we'd have gone with frees and the cheaper options like we had done in the past - turning a nice tidy profit and getting back some of the money he's put in. We didn't do that and we look set to spend again this January. 

But we really didn't spend big did we?  We just spent what we sold Benteke for, and maybe a little extra to boot.

One thing is allowing proceeds to be re-invested, but who or what is going to subsidise the "next big spend" that you're confident of again this January?  I tell you what there are no Bentekes in our team to sell, and if you think Randy is going to pull more out of his personal pocket then I would like a little dose of what you're smoking.

By definition, having to sell our best player just to get enough money to buy in other players is on a shoe string budget.  Every player we buy will have to count, they need to offer value down to the penny because we have not shown any signs of the famed "net spend" we'd need to spend lavishly.

S.O.S.

Save our season.  Don't think anyone's coming though.

5 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Sorry bud, you just can't prove that. There are too many variables, things like fitness and above all confidence.

So you're basically advocating calling a human being a rocket polisher to his face for not having a good time at work. It's different from the stands, it's part and parcel of the theatre. The above behaviour is embarrassing, childish and pathetic and those involved should be ashamed of themselves for disgracing their club with that petty, small minded shit.

They can all **** off as far as I'm concerned.

Stop sitting on the fence and tell us how you really feel lol.

Please god, one win - even if it's considered meaningless to most it may spark some kind of alternative reaction and we might get to find something out about some unknown players.

Any win could really work wonders, we need to start bagging wins and improving even if we are already down.

1 minute ago, Wainy316 said:

Okore and Lescott has looked out best pairing this season.

Lescott best in anything is probably at the root of our problems.

12 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

But you've made all that up.

There's no evidence to that being how it works.

The manager is given players by scouts and together they choose the players they want. That is surely how it happens everywhere, unless you think the manager does all the scouting himself at other clubs?

 

There's no evidence that, for example, Sherwood said "I want Charlie Austin" and was told "nah, you can have Gestede instead".

If it wasn't for a newspaper report saying that these weren't Sherwood's players, a report that had no quotes or anything, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I have made it up, because it's really what I think (I believe the clue was in the prepended text "I think"...too subtle?)...and you have no evidence to the contrary either.

I read a high expectation that Garde can only be judged after getting all his own people in, who are all his own people?  Probably all out of our price range, and actually what will be "his people" will be those identified by a committee within our price range.

Where other comittees get to demonstrate a Harrods catalog of players to choose from, ours is stuck in the local Bargain pages.  I very much doubt they're going to be what he "really wants" but what he has to make do with...

P.S.  No idea why you cite Sherwood, what has he got to do with it?  Simple logic for me as to question why a transfer committee is setup for a football club on a shoe string budget, nothing to do with some fabricated newspaper story you mention - I thikn you made that up.

5 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

The so called transfer committee includes (and included) the manager. 

It's no different to most other clubs.

It's been blown wildly out of proportion by the media and fans.

I think the so called "transfer committees" are supposed to get the "value for money" or fulfill requirements within what the club will financially allow.

The biggest problem, I believe, is at a club like ours the players that are allowed to be brought in are not exactly what the manager hopes for.  

Much has been said by the top, about how the manager always has to rubber stamp every transfer in.  But when you start saying "I'd like this guy" and each answer is "well he's a bit too much to buy / demands too many wages - how about this guy, he's been identified to have the attributes" I think head/bang/brickwall probably comes into play and you end up with a load of what you don't really want.

That's the jist of what I pick up from everything that is said, and really why such a thing as a transfer committee even exists.  This is why I question people who think that Remi is just going to go out with a shopping list and get all the players he wants, nah...committee won't allow it.

1 minute ago, Wainy316 said:

Clearly a bunch of inarticulate, drunken knuckle draggers. Can't relate to people that shout and scream obscenities at people like like that. Only sounds like about 5 people anyway.

Personally I'd just call it to a group of angry pissed up fans who've traveled really far - and may have traveled to many games to witness this shit.

No excuse, but alcohol + emotion doesn't mix well.

1 minute ago, VillaCas said:

I'm not making excuses for Garde and I'm not a massive supporter either - he may turn out to be a complete disater however where we differ is you expected him to make a difference within 9 games and I didn't.  I expect to see some improvement after the transfer window and then a complete overhaul during the close season.

I also think that Sherwood needed to go, not because he was not getting the best out of the squad but because he had overseen (together with Fox and Co) the construction of a squad so fundamentally flawed that relegation was a nailed on certainty. Someone new had to come in to completely rebuild. 

Player for player I don't actually think that the squad is the worst in the PL but taken as a whole they are. We have far too many options in some areas and literally nothing in others.  We arn't getting outplayed and turned over 5-0 every week but we just cant score enough goals to win a match because of the crippling deficencies in the squad

Whatever we both seem to agree that a change of manager at this time would be counter-productive

Fair enough, and yes I did and do expect an improvement after 9 games...I would expect anything other than not a single win.

A good experienced, the kind we could not attract, manager would not have made so many naive errors that could have improved on some of our results.  This much I'm fairly certain of, and it's an area that Remi has come up short thus far...I hope, and look forward, to a much improved Remi Garde through the season as he gets to grips because leaving it down to chance that he'll magically pull in some squad with our recruitment committee is a recipe for disaster.  This is a man that has had 3 years all in of managerial experience, he's only just pipping Sherwood for demonstrating that his transfer policy will be any better...

1 minute ago, Richard said:

Mike he doesn't turn up match days protests are more about telling the media how we feel more than him, In my opinion. The abuse that his direct reports got on that clip has more chance of being reported back than a match day protest. It all adds to the pressure. With Doug protests could work with Lerner I'm afraid it has to be a combination and to be honest I applaud that small band of fans

I agree with you in principal, but some of this was just a tad too personal...it was up close and should have stayed with the boundaries of booing.

4 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I think the idea that MOST of our players don't look interested in playing for him is absolute bollocks, frankly. 

I'm not suggesting he's doing a good job or that their confidence isn't shot to absolute shittery, but I don't see this same "lack of effort" as others do. 

Was a half decent piece on talk sport about villa just a short while ago.  Got all the points right about us, and they rounded off with the players not lacking the want to try...they're simply not good enough.

They made some interesting points that this was even apparent in pre season.

Just now, Jareth said:

Think Garde said himself recently that he has been working with the players directly, when he usually let's his coaches do that - in the absence of appointing a no.2 etc. So may be when Basticle and that other fella gets on board we'll see some results....

So he's incapable of demonstrating any improvement in our team by working with our players directly, but he'll improve them by mediating through someone else?

Honestly, I'm failing to see how this works.

38 minutes ago, Jareth said:

When Garde gets his backroom staff in we'll get better.

If he can't improve anything as the manager now, what makes you think changing backroom staff is going to help?  Unless the backroom staff are going to be taking over the managerment...

Dammed if we do, dammed if we don't - how did it ever come to this.

31 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Honestly? Very poor performance so far. If the season was not over you'd be tempted to say we've got to try again.

However, it is. I don't think we've anything to lose by keeping him on, seeing if he can wrestle it back and look to build. There is nobody available to my mind that it's worth ripping it up again mid season.

I wouldn't spend big in the January window. We will go down, we will need football men in at the club from there. We will need to tear the squad apart and start again. Again. We are lucky because every single player in that league will want to play for us.

Good luck Remi. I think you need it.

Where I'm at pretty much, if the rest of the season goes like he is now - massive failure.

As it is there isn't much to salvage now, and like you said there is no one worth getting to risk making a 3rd start all over again.

I'm not anti garde, and was never hugely pro the likes of allardyce either...I was sold by others optimism that this guy was the option who could make us more than the also runners.

I'm still not turning on garde, but I'm hugely underwhelmed which is part fault to my blind optimism.

Like you, I see no point I'm changing now but I am kicking myself that we didn't go for allardyce back then.  I suppose at the time I didn't know how badly we were condemned to relegation.  Caught in the excitement of our "best summer ever" when the reality is we need a steady pair of hands to stop the rot.

11 minutes ago, MikeMcKenna said:

Where did I say relegation is going to help our long term future? Like nearly everyone else I have accepted that is a nailed on certainty and see no point in bringing someone in who specialises in saving clubs from relegation. We are basically ****** for now. As for the benefit of hindsight; Its a wonderful thing!

It's what were facing under the current manager, to which you cite as our long term future so much so over managers who may have been enough to keep us up.

Intact, one is currently chipping away slowly at keeping a club in the hunt for survival.  The other is yet to chaulk a single win - with teams of similar shitness.

3 minutes ago, MikeMcKenna said:

Call it a whim if you like but it wasn't that long ago relatively when the mention of signing either Alardyce or Pulis would have sent VT into meltdown. Then the fans became desperate and many suddenly saw them as some kind of saviours. I will persist with my whimsical beliefs as imho the alternatives are frankly shite and offer nothing for the future. 

There's no denying that we are under a desperate situation under the current manager, and if you think relegation is going to help our long term future...

And if you gave everyone at the time the benefit of hindsight, staying in this league under Allardyce or relegation under Garde I think you know what the resounding choice would be.

3 minutes ago, Spoony said:

One of those wouldn't keep us in the league though. The players are not Premier League quality.

Seems like Fat sam might just do it, yet again, with Sunderland.

Individually, the players we have are not worse than Sunderlands merry band of misfits...

4 minutes ago, MikeMcKenna said:

Unfortunately I have little more than a belief that he will eventually do well and simplistically based on what I have read of his footballing philosophy. I am instinctivelay against Pulis, Allardyce or even Moyes as I believe they represent the past and would do little to make AVFC a decent force again. They would be the same old treadmill. Obviously time will tell but I think Garde is not going anywhere and we will find out whether I am right or wrong over the next 18 months. Like everyone else I am resigned to Championship football now and just wish this ****** season was over. 

I'd have sooner one of those had kept us in this league, than the drop we're now facing...all day long.  You're just hoping on a whim, from what I'm reading, that the long term will be better after we've been relegated under Garde.

16 minutes ago, Mantis said:

From what I've seen the overseas players seem to have come in for more criticism.

It's not even opinion, that statement is just wrong...